About the NOA

heelmanwilm · Jun 3, 2015

So heres some background first, one of the good friends i made at unc was a guy who played lacrosse and went on to work at unc in many different capacities. He loves sports and always has his eyes and ears open and shares with me time to time. He has emailed me in the past to tell me before anyone in the public knew:

Doherty was given the resign or get fired choice

Beamer accepted unc coach offer (he did but changed his mind)

Butch davis had been offered unc job (eddy landreth all but called me a liar and taz was ready to fight me)

So this guy knows whats up. Now this morning he sends this:

"The NOA has no allegations in it against the fb or men's bball programs."

So there u go.

yrusonvus · Jun 3, 2015

heelmanwilm said:
So heres some background first, one of the good friends i made at unc was a guy who played lacrosse and went on to work at unc in many different capacities. He loves sports and always has his eyes and ears open and shares with me time to time. He has emailed me in the past to tell me before anyone in the public knew:

Doherty was given the resign or get fired choice

Beamer accepted unc coach offer (he did but changed his mind)

Butch davis had been offered unc job (eddy landreth all but called me a liar and taz was ready to fight me)

So this guy knows whats up. Now this morning he sends this:

"The NOA has no allegations in it against the fb or men's bball programs."

So there u go.

Sweet

coolwaterunc · Jun 3, 2015

Works for me. Don't get me wrong, if something happens to another UNC program, I hate it for them, but it is what it is.

heelmanwilm · Jun 3, 2015

coolwaterunc said:
Works for me. Don't get me wrong, if something happens to another UNC program, I hate it for them, but it is what it is.

Yea the "mens" in front of bball is kinda ominous for the womens program

keysersosay#1 · Jun 3, 2015

I have felt for some time the women's program was gonna take a big hit .I hope that the mens program "source" here is correct

coolwaterunc · Jun 3, 2015

I'll be honest, I haven't paid too much attention to the details about all of this crap because all it would do is get me all worked up over things I have no control over. With that being said, why the women's program? I've heard that mentioned quite a bit over on the bball board recently. What involvement do they have?

heelmanwilm · Jun 3, 2015

coolwaterunc said:
I'll be honest, I haven't paid too much attention to the details about all of this crap because all it would do is get me all worked up over things I have no control over. With that being said, why the women's program? I've heard that mentioned quite a bit over on the bball board recently. What involvement do they have?

The wainstein report shows someone with the womens program telling the instructor what grade a player needed

keysersosay#1 · Jun 3, 2015

Jan Boxhill resignation awhile back was a clue as well. She apparently was quite involved in trying to get grades changed.

UNC71-00 · Jun 3, 2015

keysersosay#1 said:
Jan Boxhill resignation awhile back was a clue as well. She apparently was quite involved in trying to get grades changed.

That's it, I think. I have also heard women's soccer mentioned too- that would be much worse than women's hoops

heelbent · Jun 4, 2015

heelmanwilm said:
Butch davis had been offered unc job (eddy landreth all but called me a liar and taz was ready to fight me)

You wouldn't believe the crap I caught when I posted that Adam Lucas was flying out with a photographer to do an interview with Butch (who had accepted the job but the news hadn't been made public) for Tar Heel Blue. I got an email from Lucas wanting me to take down the post and asking how I knew. I never told him. Finally Adam Powell had to go on Blue Heaven and assure everyone the info was solid, but even he questioned me until I revealed where I got it.

TarHeelNation11 · Jun 4, 2015

Oh wait....you said NOA? My bad. Thought you said Noah.

strummingram · Jun 4, 2015

I'm still sick of the denial and hypocrisy of any coach, administrator or NCAA exec who claims this is "amateur athletics."

Glad for the fans and the teams, but I'm so tired of the scam to make billions while claiming it's wholesome amateurism. I have no problem with what it really is, just the misnomer and denial. I love college sports.

Raising Heel · Jun 4, 2015

keysersosay#1 said:
Jan Boxhill resignation awhile back was a clue as well. She apparently was quite involved in trying to get grades changed.

Correct. Boxill was a philosophy professor (who taught a sports ethics class) and was the former director of the Parr Center for Ethics. Irony alert!

She was the academic advisor to the women's basketball team and steered many of the players to the AFAM classes, in addition to using her position to influence grade changes for players. She also offered 160 independent studies classes in Philosophy over a nine-year span...almost like a sister program to what was going on in AFAM. Apparently there were a couple women's soccer players who found their way to her classes, and probably some other sports as well. Incidentally, Boxill and Mary Willingham were good friends from their time together as advisors of student-athletes.

Women's basketball is probably going to get hammered. I could see a reduction in scholarships, post-season ban, fines, and probation for them. Not sure if any other sports will be hit.

TarHeelNation11 · Jun 4, 2015

strummingram said:
I'm still sick of the denial and hypocrisy of any coach, administrator or NCAA exec who claims this is "amateur athletics."

Glad for the fans and the teams, but I'm so tired of the scam to make billions while claiming it's wholesome amateurism. I have no problem with what it really is, just the misnomer and denial. I love college sports.

Amateurism, in itself, has always been meaningless. The concept derives from an incorrect and warped interpretation of Greek history by 19th century Victorian English historians/writers/aristocrats. They looked at the ancient Greeks as enlightened and held up the ancient Greek Olympics and games as 'pure amateurism' -- i.e., competing solely for the love of the sport/competition and refusing to accept money/rewards -- except there's one problem....they did accept rewards. Some athletes were even sponsored by wealthy citizens to compete and win glory for said citizen.

Ask the late Jim Thorpe his opinion on amateurism. Amateurism is a myth, and a dumb one. It became a way for 19th century and early 20th century Englishmen (and then Americans) to throw their elite status in the face of commoners. The rich didn't need compensation for victory because they were already rich and could afford to practice for a competition in lieu of having a daily job. It became a whole warped, dumb culture.

*sorry, anti-amateurism rant is over*

heelmanwilm · Jun 4, 2015

heelbent said:
You wouldn't believe the crap I caught when I posted that Adam Lucas was flying out with a photographer to do an interview with Butch (who had accepted the job but the news hadn't been made public) for Tar Heel Blue. I got an email from Lucas wanting me to take down the post and asking how I knew. I never told him. Finally Adam Powell had to go on Blue Heaven and assure everyone the info was solid, but even he questioned me until I revealed where I got it.

I remember that story! Yea i was so excited to have "inside info" on such a huge story i couldnt wait to post it and be crowned king of blue heaven! Lol holy crap! Eddy (rip) tore into me and the entire board turn on me it seemed. When i tried explaining that only made things worse. I cxld my membership in disgust. Couple weeks later during the agonizing wait to see if davis was gonna accept eddy emailed me and asked me if i had heard anything. Lol.

BillyL · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
Women's basketball is probably going to get hammered. I could see a reduction in scholarships, post-season ban, fines, and probation for them. Not sure if any other sports will be hit.

I've heard Women's Soccer may fall inside the scope of penalties as well . .

Raising Heel · Jun 4, 2015

So this thing is supposed to drop today, right?

I don't think I'll seek out any news stories. Will probably just wait for a summary here or on another pro-Carolina site.

heelbent · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
I don't think I'll seek out any news stories. Will probably just wait for a summary here or on another pro-Carolina site.

As will I my friend. If what we are all hearing now is true there's going to be pure vitriol spewing from the media, mooers and their ilk.

ISIS couldn't keep me off PP and RR tonight. Gee, never noticed how similar those acronyms are. How apropos.

heelmanwilm · Jun 4, 2015

David glenn fwiw has all but guaranteed that those wanting severe penalties (vacated wins, loss of schollies) will be disappointed. He obviously knows something and hes been around a long time so hes got sources who know whats in it.

heelmanwilm · Jun 4, 2015

And here's the most loveliest irony of all. The suit filed by ex players saying they didnt get an education HELPS US TREMENDOUSLY. Why? Well they name the ncaa as a defendant. And guess what the ncaa's stance is in their defense. That they are not resp for enforcing ACADEMIC STANDARDS! So they cant turn around and punish us for bad academic standards re af am!

heelbent · Jun 4, 2015

heelmanwilm said:
And here's the most loveliest irony of all. The suit filed by ex players saying they didnt get an education HELPS US TREMENDOUSLY. Why? Well they name the ncaa as a defendant. And guess what the ncaa's stance is in their defense. That they are not resp for enforcing ACADEMIC STANDARDS! So they cant turn around and punish us for bad academic standards re af am!

I've wondered if any of those shysters repping UNC were behind any of the former students' law suites. I realize how far fetched that sounds...but hey, all's fair, right?

UNC71-00 · Jun 4, 2015

heelbent said:
I've wondered if any of those shysters repping UNC were behind any of the former students' law suites. I realize how far fetched that sounds...but hey, all's fair, right?

Damn right. I think it is brilliant if true. This is why it is better to have a law school than a vet school.

strummingram · Jun 4, 2015

And, frankly, if they plan to maintain this delusional concept of amateurism, then they'd better stay out of this kinda crap no matter how bad it gets. If they want their corporate sponsorships and mercandising and keep all the profits... leave how the scools manage to meet academic requirements alone.

UNC71-00 · Jun 4, 2015

I need a dissemination of this NOA.

JHVS · Jun 4, 2015

Nothing new. Nothing unexpected. For now:

Raising Heel · Jun 4, 2015

Okay, I haven't read the entire NOA but have gleaned a couple things.

One, the football NOA issued in 2011 contains the following language (emphasis mine):

Specifically, [name redacted] provided impermissible academic assistance to [name redacted] and [name redacted] which constituted academic fraud as follows:

The NOA then goes on to cite specific examples of Wiley writing concluding paragraphs, providing outlines/thesis statements, providing works-cited pages, etc. for the players.

What's interesting about the current NOA is that while it does make several references to impermissible academic assistance and impermissible benefits, it never mentions academic fraud.

The second thing that stood out to me was this passage:

The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball, and women's basketball.

All the Carolina fans/alums gloating today need to reel it in. If the NCAA chooses to declare those players ineligible -- and I don't see any reason they couldn't -- then that means automatic forfeiture of games in which they played. That would obviously be the nuclear option since it could potentially affect all 18 years.

[Edit to add:] Okay, looking over the 2011 NOA it specifically said players were ineligible because there had been academic fraud. So maybe, since there are no charges of fraud and no mentioned of ineligibility here, the NCAA doesn't intend to vacate wins.

heelmanwilm · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
Okay, I haven't read the entire NOA but have gleaned a couple things.

One, the football NOA issued in 2011 contains the following language (emphasis mine):
The NOA then goes on to cite specific examples of Wiley writing concluding paragraphs, providing outlines/thesis statements, providing works-cited pages, etc. for the players.

What's interesting about the current NOA is that while it does make several references to impermissible academic assistance and impermissible benefits, it never mentions academic fraud.

The second thing that stood out to me was this passage:

All the Carolina fans/alums gloating today need to reel it in. If the NCAA chooses to declare those players ineligible -- and I don't see any reason they couldn't -- then that means automatic forfeiture of games in which they played. That would obviously be the nuclear option since it could potentially affect all 18 years.

Yes BUT there are no allegations that the players were ineligible. Seems to me if thats the case it would be in the noa.

Heres my take. There are 5 allegations
Loic re af am
Academic advisors steering students to af am courses
Crowder for not cooperating
Moxhill as wbball advisor
Nyangaro for not cooperating

Notice none against any program except womens bball. There are absolutely no allegations against the fb or mens bball program. None. So when we get penalized would the ncaa penalize any program (fb, mens bball) that they themselves have cleared of wrongdoing? How could they give post season bans and take schollies from a program thats clean? Is there a precedent? Seems to me a heavy fine and dropping the hammer on wbball is most likely.

JHVS · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
Okay, I haven't read the entire NOA but have gleaned a couple things.

One, the football NOA issued in 2011 contains the following language (emphasis mine):
The NOA then goes on to cite specific examples of Wiley writing concluding paragraphs, providing outlines/thesis statements, providing works-cited pages, etc. for the players.

What's interesting about the current NOA is that while it does make several references to impermissible academic assistance and impermissible benefits, it never mentions academic fraud.

The second thing that stood out to me was this passage:

All the Carolina fans/alums gloating today need to reel it in. If the NCAA chooses to declare those players ineligible -- and I don't see any reason they couldn't -- then that means automatic forfeiture of games in which they played. That would obviously be the nuclear option since it could potentially affect all 18 years.

They can retroactively take all of our 6 win football seasons if that is all that they take. I don't care how many old wins that they declare now losses or erased.

Raising Heel · Jun 4, 2015

heelmanwilm said:
Yes BUT there are no allegations that the players were ineligible. Seems to me if thats the case it would be in the noa.

You're right, and I updated my post to reflect that.

The 2011 NOA specifically declared players ineligible because of academic fraud. The current NOA mentions neither. I feel a little better now.

And @JHVS, it's not the football wins I'm worried about.

JHVS · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
You're right, and I updated my post to reflect that.

The 2011 NOA specifically declared players ineligible because of academic fraud. The current NOA mentions neither. I feel a little better now.

And @JHVS, it's not the football wins I'm worried about.

Oh I know but I honestly think the rest of this will wash out or receive some cursory minor penalties and then this all will FINALLY be over. So I am good right now. The COI will do what they do but they do not have room to go crazy IMO so it is OK with me.

Nuk'EM Heels · Jun 4, 2015

I have absolutely zero confidence the UNC administration won't bend over and take it in the arse just one more time for old times sake... ZERO.

UNC71-00 · Jun 4, 2015

Nuk'EM Heels said:
I have absolutely zero confidence the UNC administration won't bend over and take it in the arse just one more time for old times sake... ZERO.

Yeah, I don't think so this time because:

A) Cunningham, not Baddour
B) MBB would be in trouble, and if ever there were a sacred cow in this whole fiasco, it's hoops. I think hoops is where we would fight til the death.

UNC71-00 · Jun 4, 2015

Raising Heel said:
You're right, and I updated my post to reflect that.

The 2011 NOA specifically declared players ineligible because of academic fraud. The current NOA mentions neither. I feel a little better now.

And @JHVS, it's not the football wins I'm worried about.

The problem in all of this for me has been that we are assuming NCAA behavior. If there is one thing which I have learned, it is that there the NCAA is the most inconsistent organization in the history of time when it comes to investigations and penalties.

On the surface, after some time for digestion, I don't think the NOA could have been much more benign. But that doesn't mean the COI won't have a Salem Witch Trial with UNC as the defendant.

Nuk'EM Heels · Jun 4, 2015

Yeah, but it's the same pencil-necked geek nurds above the AD that will really be in charge of UNCs defense - in them I have ZERO trust. To look at this report, it is an academic scandal with an athletic component. The nurds will flip that for their own purposes and willingly sacrifice UNC athletics to save the academicians.

Nuk'EM Heels · Jun 4, 2015

Nuk'EM Heels said:
Yeah, but it's the same pencil-necked geek nurds above the AD that will really be in charge of UNCs defense - in them I have ZERO trust. To look at this report, it is an academic scandal with an athletic component. The nurds will flip that for their own purposes and willingly sacrifice UNC athletics to save the academicians

heelbent · Jun 4, 2015

Bylaw 16, which is what the NCAA says UNC violated...

"Allegations. 1. [NCAA Division I Manual Bylaw 16.11.2.1 (2002-03 through 2010-11)]"

From the NCAA's own manual...

"For violations of Bylaw 16 in which there is no monetary value to the extra benefit, violations shall be considered institutional violations... however such violations shall not affect the student-athlete's eligibility"

Well, well, well...

BillyL · Jun 4, 2015

Nuk'EM Heels said:
Yeah, but it's the same pencil-necked geek nurds above the AD that will really be in charge of UNCs defense - in them I have ZERO trust. To look at this report, it is an academic scandal with an athletic component. The nurds will flip that for their own purposes and willingly sacrifice UNC athletics to save the academicians.

Not gonna happen.

UNC will fight portions of the NOA, and if anything comes back in the COI, they will further the fight into court and that you can count on, Nukie.

This message of our intentions to be willing to do so has already been conveyed to the NCAA . .

UNC71-00 · Jun 4, 2015

Nuk'EM Heels · Jun 5, 2015

BillyL said:
Not gonna happen.

UNC will fight portions of the NOA, and if anything comes back in the COI, they will further the fight into court and that you can count on, Nukie.

This message of our intentions to be willing to do so has already been conveyed to the NCAA . .

Hope you're right. We'll see...

About the NOA

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