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Chizik Defense

A few thoughts.

I actually started last week compiling starting defensive rosters for Chizik's teams at UCF, Auburn, and Texas. My goal was to look at the recruiting rankings for each of the starters to get an idea what kind of talent he was working with. As it turns out, the Rivals database doesn't go back far enough to allow that so I gave up.

I did notice a few NFLers even on his UCF teams, including Elton Patterson, Ricot Joseph, and Asante Samuel. Of course that raises the question of how much Chizik contributed to their development versus how talented they were in the first place. The other thing to note is that the competition from UCF opponents was undoubtedly less than what a Power 5 team faces. So when we say he was working with less talent, he was facing less talent as well.

That last thing worth noting is that Koenning had a reputation for making significant improvements in the defenses at Clemson and Illinois before he came to UNC. We put an end to that, ugh. I just hope we don't do the same thing to Chizik.
 
Raising Heel said:
A few thoughts.

I actually started last week compiling starting defensive rosters for Chizik's teams at UCF, Auburn, and Texas. My goal was to look at the recruiting rankings for each of the starters to get an idea what kind of talent he was working with. As it turns out, the Rivals database doesn't go back far enough to allow that so I gave up.

I did notice a few NFLers even on his UCF teams, including Elton Patterson, Ricot Joseph, and Asante Samuel. Of course that raises the question of how much Chizik contributed to their development versus how talented they were in the first place. The other thing to note is that the competition from UCF opponents was undoubtedly less than what a Power 5 team faces. So when we say he was working with less talent, he was facing less talent as well.

That last thing worth noting is that Koenning had a reputation for making significant improvements in the defenses at Clemson and Illinois before he came to UNC. We put an end to that, ugh. I just hope we don't do the same thing to Chizik.
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But the difference is that most Clemson fans were happy to see him go. For whatever reason, they were not happy, feeling that they had better talent on D than showed most of the time under Koenning.
 
If he can get the defense into the top 40-50 we could make some noise with this schedule.

The credentials of Koenning didnt even come close to those of Chizik in all fairness
 
WoadBlue said:
But the difference is that most Clemson fans were happy to see him go. For whatever reason, they were not happy, feeling that they had better talent on D than showed most of the time under Koenning.
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uncboy10 said:
The credentials of Koenning didnt even come close to those of Chizik in all fairness
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Clemson's rankings in Total Defense:
2003 - 29 (before Koenning)
2004 - 26 (before Koenning)
2005 - 20
2006 - 13
2007 - 9
2008 - 18
2009 - 20 (after Koenning)
2010 - 19 (after Koenning)

Not a remarkable "rags to riches" story, but it seems like they were better with him than without him. I'll gladly take any of those rankings.
 
Koenning looked promising, and I'm sure he's a really good coach but he doesn't have any NC's on his resume...
 
Perhaps the explanation is Clemson recruits SO well that whatever defense Koenning ran, it was bound to put up good numbers. Kinda like how most of us were insanely exasperated with Withers' defensive playcalls because we had -- literally -- 5 NFL players on the field on any given play, and yet we were still giving up chunks of yards with his bend-but-don't-break-I'll-never-call-a-blitz-ever-ever-ever play-calling. Those defense put up good numbers but they could've put up so much better numbers than they did.

Perhaps the same was true for VK at Clemson. We all know Clemson stockpiles talent (Gaines Adams was VK's first two defenses, for example).
 
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Raising Heel said:
Clemson's rankings in Total Defense:
2003 - 29 (before Koenning)
2004 - 26 (before Koenning)
2005 - 20
2006 - 13
2007 - 9
2008 - 18
2009 - 20 (after Koenning)
2010 - 19 (after Koenning)

Not a remarkable "rags to riches" story, but it seems like they were better with him than without him. I'll gladly take any of those rankings.
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I would too. But that does not change the fact that most Clemson fans were happy to see him go. That and the fact that I do not trust any success in the BT meaning anything add up to mean that I am not bowled over at how awful Koenning was for UNC. I never would have guessed anything close to it, and I hoped he would oversee improvement. But maybe he was at his best largely smoke and mirrors, and we got him on his downhill slide.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
Perhaps the explanation is Clemson recruits SO well that whatever defense Koenning ran, it was bound to put up good numbers. Kinda like how most of us were insanely exasperated with Withers' defensive playcalls because we had -- literally -- 5 NFL players on the field on any given play, and yet we were still giving up chunks of yards with his bend-but-don't-break-I'll-never-call-a-blitz-ever-ever-ever play-calling. Those defense put up good numbers but they could've put up so much better numbers than they did.

Perhaps the same was true for VK at Clemson. We all know Clemson stockpiles talent (Gaines Adams was VK's first two defenses, for example).
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I think that may be it. I think just as I kept saying Withers was a mediocre DC because a 1st rate DC with all that talent would have owned the field, and not given up 2 or 3 4th quarter leads every year, Clemson fans may have seen the wasted talent rather than just the good results.
 
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I haven't really thought about it in awhile until this thread, but now I'm remembering how frustrating those Withers' defenses were to watch. He have a stable of thoroughbreds and insisted on holding the reigns too tight 85% of the time.

Between Withers' defensive calls and Shoop's offensive calls (3rd and 12? Give 'em a play fake to keep 'em honest!!), those were frustrating games to watch.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
I haven't really thought about it in awhile until this thread, but now I'm remembering how frustrating those Withers' defenses were to watch. He have a stable of thoroughbreds and insisted on holding the reigns too tight 85% of the time.

Between Withers' defensive calls and Shoop's offensive calls (3rd and 12? Give 'em a play fake to keep 'em honest!!), those were frustrating games to watch.
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Amen!
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
I haven't really thought about it in awhile until this thread, but now I'm remembering how frustrating those Withers' defenses were to watch. He have a stable of thoroughbreds and insisted on holding the reigns too tight 85% of the time.

Between Withers' defensive calls and Shoop's offensive calls (3rd and 12? Give 'em a play fake to keep 'em honest!!), those were frustrating games to watch.
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Mediocre coordinators will ruin a team. Butch was undone by his choice of coordinators. Top notch DC and OC those 3 years would have meant 2 more regular season Ws per year.
 
WoadBlue said:
Mediocre coordinators will ruin a team. Butch was undone by his choice of coordinators. Top notch DC and OC those 3 years would have meant 2 more regular season Ws per year.
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What are the odds we see an uptick in offensive production as a result of Fed handing over the reins completely on defense and spending more time focusing on the offense? Seems to me like it would be beneficial for him to be calling the plays at least some of the time, since it's his offense
 
uncboy10 said:
What are the odds we see an uptick in offensive production as a result of Fed handing over the reins completely on defense and spending more time focusing on the offense? Seems to me like it would be beneficial for him to be calling the plays at least some of the time, since it's his offense
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You'd think we would. Chizik is in total control of the D. That frees Fedora from that responsibility, which means he has more time and energy for offense and special teams.
 
TBH I was a bit surprised by his comments that he pretty much always let the OC call the plays, and I'd be even more surprised if it didn't change this year

Just imagine if we could have Butch back as head coach, with Fed as OC, and Chizik as the DC
 
uncboy10 said:
TBH I was a bit surprised by his comments that he pretty much always let the OC call the plays, and I'd be even more surprised if it didn't change this year

Just imagine if we could have Butch back as head coach, with Fed as OC, and Chizik as the DC
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Tooo much for me to imagine. I still have to make certain I'm not dreaming about Chizik as DC.
 
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WoadBlue said:
Tooo much for me to imagine. I still have to make certain I'm not dreaming about Chizik as DC.
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Same here. I cant wait for September, I have a feeling he's going to have the defense looking better than any of us would suspect
 
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Something tells me we are going to see improvement. Certainly just a sign of life would be improvement. I just don't think Chizik is going to come in here knowing our problems and let some of the same guys hit the field doing the same things. The work ethic alone should be better and we should be able to observe its effects on the field. A scheme change is great but we had some effort issues in places as well. I expect that to be gone.
 
Oh we'll see improvement. Chizik is too good of a coordinator, and don't forget about the position coaches. Charlton Warren (secondary) is a stud, Papuchis (LB's) is a well-known commodity, and Scott (DL) is a rising star who impressed Chizik so much that he gave him the job.

Our defensive coaching staff has been upgraded in a major way, guys. That, alone, should make us see improvement.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
Oh we'll see improvement. Chizik is too good of a coordinator, and don't forget about the position coaches. Charlton Warren (secondary) is a stud, Papuchis (LB's) is a well-known commodity, and Scott (DL) is a rising star who impressed Chizik so much that he gave him the job.

Our defensive coaching staff has been upgraded in a major way, guys. That, alone, should make us see improvement.
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If I have to pick which position group will see the most improvement over last year, I say DBs. I think Warren is going to do a bang up job, wqhich by 2016 could mean a 1st rate secondary.
 
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Like this thread!!!!!!! I just would love to see that they have learned how to tackle. Last year we had players in the right spot and just missed the tackle. To me that was probally the biggest problem last year.
 
Raising Heel said:
This bears repeating. I think Koenning and his prickly approach alienated a lot of players last season. I imagine it's hard to play for a guy you don't respect.
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maybe they respected him (he did have a good track record) but they just didn't like him.
 
bobby121567 said:
Like this thread!!!!!!! I just would love to see that they have learned how to tackle. Last year we had players in the right spot and just missed the tackle. To me that was probally the biggest problem last year.
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Missed tackles everywhere. And DBs in position, who never turned to the ball, which was easily caught.

I expect to see the new staff exorcising those demons.
 
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Woad. Fix those two things and the Heels with the schedule we have this year. Should ( not will) have a really good year. But we are the Tar Heels and we invent stumbling blocks every year.
 
New on the board but have been a regular reader. In my free time recently I calculated out how many extra points on offense that the teams on our schedule this year would compare to last years offenses our defense faced. For example, clemson's o versus Wake Forest's, ECU versus Gamecocks's offense, etc. Although certainly not an exact science, it would add up to nearly 100 points fewer this year compared to last year. So, as others have pointed out, our schedule is weaker but more importantly are the potency of offences our D will face
 
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Thx, my point here is twofold, number one we will be facing less explosive team's overall that should help our new D find their footing and hopefully gain some confidence. The other side of it is that the D may look a whole lot better initially, but we may not know how much better they are until we play comparable offenses to last year, such as G Tech and Miami
 
I want to see better basic fundamentals on defense, especially in the area of tackling. We have been one of the poorest tackling teams in recent years that I've ever seen. Nothing upsets me more in football.
 
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I don't know if it was technique or talent...but the DB's last year looked a little stiff at the hips on the turn and then were playing catch up and chasing too much.

The conference has some outstanding receivers and you will get burned some no matter what. But you have to be able to stop or slow down the passing game.

Defending the running game, Chizik will get the guys to improve their angles so that will cut down on the arm tackles.

Sacks fell off from 32 in 2013 to just 22 last year. Someone will have to pick up where Kareem Martin left off (13 sacks last year). Bump up the sacks and the DB's automatically will look better. Nobody can defend six or seven seconds.
 
I'd like to think the missed tackles were the result of less time being spent practicing tackling, while more time was spent trying to learn the more complex scheme Koenning ran.

I would expect pretty much the opposite to be the case this year. Chizik seems to prefer a simpler scheme and a more fundamental approach to coaching. Personally I'd like to think that D1 athletes who are good enough to play football for UNC can relearn tackling fundamentals in a summer.
 
uncboy10 said:
I'd like to think the missed tackles were the result of less time being spent practicing tackling, while more time was spent trying to learn the more complex scheme Koenning ran.

I would expect pretty much the opposite to be the case this year. Chizik seems to prefer a simpler scheme and a more fundamental approach to coaching. Personally I'd like to think that D1 athletes who are good enough to play football for UNC can relearn tackling fundamentals in a summer.
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I think it was a bit more sinister than that. Well not "sinister," but I can't think of a better word. I don't want to call anyone out so the best way I can think to say it is this:

Charlton Warren won't let any DB on the field who doesn't:
1) Love the game of football
2) Love to hit and be physical.

#2 may have been an issue in the past.
 
I'm inclined to agree with that. There were a few times last year where the defense was actually quite impressive, but usually the offense couldn't move the ball when that was the case. The only time it got put together was dook. But what that tells me is that our guys have the talent and athleticism to be pretty good, but need to get some mental set backs worked out

I'm more worried about nastiness from the big uglies. Even if the DB's do a 180, they wont be able to cover guys forever if we cant get pressure.

The only good thing about a season as bad as last year is that pretty much every mistake that could be made happened, so hopefully these guys learned from how bad they were last year.
 
A big part of how our D performs will be those big uglies up front, I am really hoping Naz Jones and Powell can have breakthrough years, also curious if Jeremiah Clark and Aaron Crawford can really contribute. We haven't had that big disruptive tackle we need since Sly Williams
 
Tar Healer said:
A big part of how our D performs will be those big uglies up front, I am really hoping Naz Jones and Powell can have breakthrough years, also curious if Jeremiah Clark and Aaron Crawford can really contribute. We haven't had that big disruptive tackle we need since Sly Williams
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Some seem to think that Calrke could be what Jones was last year: RS DT who shows very good promise. Same of Dinkins. In fact, if Clark and Dinkins are that and Jones and Powell make some small improvements and Thomason is a solid SR, and none of them suffers serious injury, we might RS Crawford.

We have depth at DT now - but we have almost no experience. This is the year we needed a 5th year SR DT to transfer in as a grad student.

BNut that youth at DT - it means in 2016 we will have experienced depth.
 
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