A lot of it is culture. Being drunk and loud (sadly) isn't the social norm at Carolina games. If you stand up, you stand out.
Coach Fedora
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A lot of it is culture. Being drunk and loud (sadly) isn't the social norm at Carolina games. If you stand up, you stand out.
You're vastly overestimating how good Clemson is going to be from here on out. Not because Dabo isn't a great coach and not because he hasn't built a great program. He has. It's just that staying in the Top 5 every year is basically impossible, unless you're Alabama. Clemson will lose a couple WTF games next season because that's just how college football works. Plus, it will be a rebuilding year for them on both sides of the ball.
I think you've hit on one of the reasons. A lot of my friends (I'm a grad student at UNC) who have experience with big time football schools think Kenan's atmosphere sucks. I've only been to Stanford and UCLA games (plus one USC) so from my experience I love going to our games. But why did this culture come about? NC State has a different culture. And before you say it's just because of our strong academics, that doesn't explain how a school like Michigan (also great academically) could be so much better.
The only thing I can think of is the combination of strong academics and lack of on-field success has kept a rabid fanbase from forming. But it's still hard for me to understand. NC is the 9th largest state, and UNC is the flagship school. The only other top 10 states without big time football are New York (no real flagship or college sports passion) and Illinois (and UIUC is a school that also has a perplexingly small following). Moreso than the Illini though I'd say UNC is a fantastic brand with a passionate fanbase for other sports. Plus it's in the South, and even if the culture in Chapel Hill is different there are a lot of rural surrounding areas that should produce rabid football fans.
Because UNC is a "country club" type school that embraces its hoighty-toighty (read: douchey) ways. Even those who aren't in the financial stratosphere of the rich alumni, act like they are.
NC State has a much more blue collar fanbase. As does many other schools that have great stadium atmosphere -- Tennessee, UGA, Florida, etc. Carolina has plenty of blue collar fans and alums, but everyone sorta plays along with the pervasive culture which is: elitist, holier-than-thou, etc. Carolina people have always been like that. It's why our basketball games have no atmosphere either.
Why do you even root for UNC? Your opinion of our school and our fans seems to be very low. I'm beginning to think you're crazy as a loon and revel in being miserable. I'm curious, how many years on this planet has it taken you to become so jaded?
Yeah... he might have a rebuilding year/season sprinkled-in here and there. But, I think 8 out of 10 seasons, his team will be in the CFBP. Fedora won't make it one out of the 10.
You know I love your posts @Archer2 , and I know your beef with THN is that everything seems to come off as negative...
But there's really no problem at all with this gripe.
While I disagree with "It's why our basketball games have no atmosphere either...", there's some truth to his statement when it comes to our football crowd. I've had season tickets for years and the amount of times I'm told to sit down or quiet down is laughable. There's got to be something we can do about this. CU has the stadium shaking for running down a freaking hill against The Citadel if they want. We rarely fill the stadium, current students included in the problem. That type of thing speaks to recruits.
It's not a bad idea for wanting improvement in our home crowds. When was the last time you went to Kenan and thought- "Man...the crowd was incredible today...", as opposed to just "Hey, the crowd wasn't terrible today."
My main problems:
1) Kenan is way too big for our program. We could take away 15K seats and be just fine. Fill the place and recruiting gets better. Recruiting gets better and we win more consistently. Sustain that for a while and then you add seats.
2) Our tailgating culture is absolutely non-existant. And I'm saying that as a part of the problem. I used to drive from Charlotte to Greensboro to pick up my Dad and whoever was using our other two seats, load up the car with a grill and multiple coolers and tents and corn hole, etc. You know where we park? Joe's Barber Shop. Joe's freaking Barber Shop on the corner of Columbia and Rosemary. It's never full, but it's always over $20 dollars (changed to $25 this year). It's also a 20 minutes walk from the stadium. So- we quit tailgating. We park at a friend's house and bar hop and save the pointless parking fee in a half full parking lot. Are there other places to park? Yes. Do the ones closer to the stadium fill up faster? Yes. Is there tailgating there that makes it worth it? No. The tailgating thing HAS GOT TO BE FIXED or we will NEVER be a big time program. Period.
3) The Blue Zone is the absolute worst idea in the history of Carolina athletics. It's an opportunity for the wealthy to feel like they did their alma mater a solid by "going to the game" when really they just went to a cushy bar. I've been there. I'd tear it down immediately. It's aesthetically pleasing but it will never put butts in the seats. Either that, or put the bars outside and make certain that if you're gonna hold a drink in the stadium legally, you're going to be in that blue seat.
Doesn't mean I don't love my Heels. I've been going to these games since I was a toddler and will continue to until my days are over. I'll be the guy screaming at the top of his lungs until he's red in the face and defending my QB against even other Heels fans when he throws his first freakin' pick of the season like I had to do this year. As far as Heels football fans go- I'm one of the more serious of the bunch. But if you want to know how much work we have to do and why pointing this out is totally OK, I sure do hope you were at the Georgia game this year. Or the LSU game in 2010. Or the Clemson game 2 years back.
LOVING the Heels certainly doesn't mean we can't improve game day. And even if we can't- we should certainly try.
But there's really no problem at all with this gripe.
While I disagree with "It's why our basketball games have no atmosphere either...", there's some truth to his statement when it comes to our football crowd. I've had season tickets for years and the amount of times I'm told to sit down or quiet down is laughable. There's got to be something we can do about this. CU has the stadium shaking for running down a freaking hill against The Citadel if they want. We rarely fill the stadium, current students included in the problem. That type of thing speaks to recruits.
It's not a bad idea for wanting improvement in our home crowds. When was the last time you went to Kenan and thought- "Man...the crowd was incredible today...", as opposed to just "Hey, the crowd wasn't terrible today."
My main problems:
1) Kenan is way too big for our program. We could take away 15K seats and be just fine. Fill the place and recruiting gets better. Recruiting gets better and we win more consistently. Sustain that for a while and then you add seats.
2) Our tailgating culture is absolutely non-existant. And I'm saying that as a part of the problem. I used to drive from Charlotte to Greensboro to pick up my Dad and whoever was using our other two seats, load up the car with a grill and multiple coolers and tents and corn hole, etc. You know where we park? Joe's Barber Shop. Joe's freaking Barber Shop on the corner of Columbia and Rosemary. It's never full, but it's always over $20 dollars (changed to $25 this year). It's also a 20 minutes walk from the stadium. So- we quit tailgating. We park at a friend's house and bar hop and save the pointless parking fee in a half full parking lot. Are there other places to park? Yes. Do the ones closer to the stadium fill up faster? Yes. Is there tailgating there that makes it worth it? No. The tailgating thing HAS GOT TO BE FIXED or we will NEVER be a big time program. Period.
3) The Blue Zone is the absolute worst idea in the history of Carolina athletics. It's an opportunity for the wealthy to feel like they did their alma mater a solid by "going to the game" when really they just went to a cushy bar. I've been there. I'd tear it down immediately. It's aesthetically pleasing but it will never put butts in the seats. Either that, or put the bars outside and make certain that if you're gonna hold a drink in the stadium legally, you're going to be in that blue seat.
Doesn't mean I don't love my Heels. I've been going to these games since I was a toddler and will continue to until my days are over. I'll be the guy screaming at the top of his lungs until he's red in the face and defending my QB against even other Heels fans when he throws his first freakin' pick of the season like I had to do this year. As far as Heels football fans go- I'm one of the more serious of the bunch. But if you want to know how much work we have to do and why pointing this out is totally OK, I sure do hope you were at the Georgia game this year. Or the LSU game in 2010. Or the Clemson game 2 years back.
LOVING the Heels certainly doesn't mean we can't improve game day. And even if we can't- we should certainly try.
Oh, I agree with most of what you said, GTHD. I'm all for improving the game day experience, starting with making the tailgating experience much easier and more enjoyable. And fielding a team that isn't mediocre year after year would help put more butts in the seats too, contrary to what THN says. But I especially don't agree with this statement by THN11:
"Carolina has plenty of blue collar fans and alums, but everyone sorta plays along with the pervasive culture which is: elitist, holier-than-thou, etc. Carolina people have always been like that."
He just comes across as an angry person most of the time. He doesn't offer solutions, just criticizes our fans and constantly reminds us that he donates money and attends the games, and shame on the fans who don't. That's the definition of elitist.
"Carolina has plenty of blue collar fans and alums, but everyone sorta plays along with the pervasive culture which is: elitist, holier-than-thou, etc. Carolina people have always been like that."
He just comes across as an angry person most of the time. He doesn't offer solutions, just criticizes our fans and constantly reminds us that he donates money and attends the games, and shame on the fans who don't. That's the definition of elitist.
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in my day
you could walk into kenan with your cooler,
you could park on the sidewalks and tailgate,
the people who were running the town were from the town, now half of the people who live in chapel hill have no connection to carolina whats so ever.
the streets on campus and the major roads in town are state maintained so chapel hill may not have had any legal right to ban parking on the sidewalks. someone needs to check with the institute of government to see if this is legal.
you could walk into kenan with your cooler,
you could park on the sidewalks and tailgate,
the people who were running the town were from the town, now half of the people who live in chapel hill have no connection to carolina whats so ever.
the streets on campus and the major roads in town are state maintained so chapel hill may not have had any legal right to ban parking on the sidewalks. someone needs to check with the institute of government to see if this is legal.
I don't know that this is actually true though. Certainly as a highly regarded academic university there are many rich alumni. But the same is true of Michigan? It's no blue-collar school. Florida really isn't either. And both of those places have very successful landgrant schools to compete with, unlike North Carolina. The state of North Carolina is bigger than the state of Michigan, and there is probably a larger rural population here too. Where do all of these people go to watch a game on Saturday? Certainly not Wake Forest.
Re: Tailgating: I'm in the minority here, in that I really don't care much about tailgating. I want to watch the game. I get that it's a big thing though, and something we need to do better on.
Re: Stadium Size and Blue Zone: I don't agree. Extra bleachers is not hurting the atmosphere. The Pitt game was an awesome environment this year, and for big games we can get 63K to Kenan. We'll probably have two sellouts in '17 (ND and Louisville), so taking away 15k seats at $70 a pop for 2 games is $2.1 million in lost revenue already. And I don't know the financials of the Blue Zone, but in general luxury suites are cash cows for college programs. I would bet it's a pretty big money maker, and I believe all of the suites sold out this year.
I'm still feeling like it's lack of current on-field success and lack of tradition (meaning there are a lot fewer people with a connection to Carolina football because they grew up rooting for it) as the biggest reasons, with tailgating and lack of crowd excitement (mostly due to the overall crowd size being smaller) as secondary causes.
Not sure if you know this or not, but Michigan is not considered a good college football atmosphere. The stadium is massive, yes, but it's heavily criticized as being the "biggest quiet stadium." It is impressive that they put so many people in a stadium, though, for sure.
Florida -- the fanbase -- is most certainly blue collar (nice way of saying redneck). North Florida and Southern Georgia is about as redneck as you can get.
I'm sorry that the truth touches a nerve with you. Carolina's atmosphere CAN be great (Duke games in basketball and the occasional game in Kenan, e.g.), but we have repeatedly shown we cannot consistently replicate that atmosphere.
And, 27, to answer your question lol.
I figured you were pretty young but that's mighty young to be so jaded.
That's pretty much it. Everybody who has been to at least 2 UNC Home games has had to deal with UNC fans ordering somebody to sit down and/or cheer less rambunctiously.
Wine and cheese crowd is correct.
I still don't feel you're answering the question. Ann Arbor and Gainesville both have lots of "blue-collar" fans around the region who come to their games. But North Carolina is filled with the same groups of people, it's why the state went red politically this year. Why don't these people come to UNC games? All three schools produce wealthy, white-collar alumni. It's the non-alum fans in the area that are making such a huge difference in total attendance.
In no particular order:
1. They are fans of State instead
2. They don't go because UNC Football is not an attractive brand (I disagree with this)
3. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
What do I mean by #3? Well, it's very simply human / group psychology. The permeating atmosphere at a Carolina football game is to sit on your hands, not be rambunctious, and hardly ever cheer. There are plenty of people at any particular Carolina game who WANT to cheer, but they eventually succumb to the status quo of everyone around them, which is to not be loud. You can see this social experiment play out at every single UNC home game:
In a particular section (I'm using the upper deck because that's where my tickets are), there's like, what, 2,000 people or so, in the upper deck? Maybe less. Let's call it 1500. Every game, small pockets of fans -- groups of 2-5 people -- throughout that section, but scattered and dispersed through the various rows, will attempt to be rowdy and get the rest of the section fired up. A few more people will respond to this and also start getting hyped up. Everyone else in the section will ignore them and continue to sit down, not be loud, and not stand up on big plays. Eventually, human/group psychology takes over and the people trying to be cheerleaders ultimately give up and succumb to the norm. This is basic human instinct. People do not generally feel comfortable sticking out in crowds; it makes you feel vulnerable. So, the fans who try to rabble rouse, ultimately get defeated by the status quo. I see it happen every single game.
It happens to me every game. I try to stand up and rouse the fans and get everyone excited, but I start feeling awkward when no one responds, and eventually I'll stop. Only once or twice have I been actually told to sit, but generally, I just sense it. I'll stand, but I'll feel bad because NO ONE behind me will stand, and I know I'm blocking people's view and what not. Eventually, I'll get sheepish and sit down.
Somehow, someway, the culture at Kenan and the Dean Dome needs to change. I don't know how to achieve this.
Correct. Good question.
Also correct. As you said at the end of your poast, it seems like nobody knows how to "fix" it.
I've been a season ticket holder for six years and sat in three different sections during that time. I've seen exactly what THN describes above play out week after week. Sometimes I feel like the biggest dolt on earth for standing up while we're on defense thanks to the people around me who act like they're at the movies or something.
Two words, electrified bleachers. If you get a jolt in your ass when you try to sit down you'll be more likely to stand. Problem solved, you're welcome.
Quite possibly the only valid argument for keeping those ugly, uncomfortable metal bleachers.
I stood for all four quarters at the GT game while my entire family (including two UNC alums) sat for the entire game. Sometimes you just gotta say screw it and embrace your inner contrarian. Plus, you get a somewhat warped sense of superiority after the game. It's great.
In or near the student section people stand the whole game. I've never noticed this problem for football (for basketball yes). Anyway I feel like we are talking about two topics that are only slightly related:
1. Why aren't there more people interested in going to UNC games? Given the size of the state (9th largest in the US), the passion for college sports here, and the lack of competition (no successful landgrant and no NFL team nearby) it's perplexing to me. We can't really say all of the "blue collar" fans are going to State because their attendance isn't particularly high either. Why do schools like WVU and Iowa outdraw UNC? And why don't the non-alums identify with the brand? I'd come back to current success and tradition. Tailgating would also help get more casual fans interested.
2. Why aren't the fans who are going more passionate? This indirectly harms question 1, but I have to imagine only slightly. I would guess the largest reason is the "blue collar" non-alums not showing up. On top of that have fewer students going than other schools. I'd also say the students who go are not particularly passionate either. Why is this? Hard for me to say. You can propose that it's that only the children of the wealthy can get into UNC (not entirely true) and they are less passionate than working class kids, but that doesn't hold when you look at other top schools with high attendance like Michigan, Texas, USC, etc. So what will rouse the current students, alums, and non-alums to be more passionate?
Your questions are hard to answer, but I would like to rebuff something you said. You state that the student section at Kenan is generally not passionate. I disagree with this. The Tar Pit gets a bad rap, IMO. In most home games, the student section is the ONLY part of the stadium consistently making noise. The rest of the stadium can't do jack s**t. You can't even get people in the non-student sections to clap along to the damn fight song. Like...holy hell. That's the easiest and least-taxing method of "passion" one can show, and still I'll look around during the playing of the fight song and barely anyone is fighting along.
As for answering your question about why people don't go, all I can do is point back to the culture of excuse-making that permeates the fanbase. Whenever the question is posed "why don't you go to games?" you get a litany of excuses from Carolina fans. I don't know how or why, but this excuse-making culture strangles the UNC fanbase. I truly don't get it. One theory is our fanbase is smarter and more successful than most, so they're more keenly aware of the concept of return on investment. Thus, a lot of people don't go to the football games because they know we aren't going to win at a high clip. This may hold merit with some folks, I don't know.
Yeah, I guess thinking about it more our student section for football is pretty good. It's not quite as packed as other schools (it should be though because our tickets are free unlike many other schools), but those who do go consistently get loud. I was thinking more of basketball when I wrote that response. I have been unimpressed with many of the students at basketball games. Apart from the risers they are not particularly loud. Myself and a couple of friends always complain that more people aren't raucous. Of course they are still worlds better than the rest of the fans in attendance.
Your ROI response sort of makes sense, but then again we price our tickets cheaper than many other schools. So I'd figure the ROI is similar. The key seems to be to get more non-alums to come anyway.
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thought you were making a point that the past election was different.
when i was in school we wore ties to the game like va. that didn't foster a yee haw kind of environment which seems to be what's needed in the south.
Guys, it's all about the facilities, not just the stadium. Have any of you seen Clemson's football facilities?
In the flesh!! Retired in one state and currently coaching football in another!!
