Is it time for SC to take down the conf flag?

[heelmanwilm]

I admit i've wavered back and forth on this. But after seeing the pic of roof holding the flag i'm convinced that its predominantly a symbol of hate and whatever historical benefit someone gets from displaying Lee's battle flag is outweighed by what its grown to symbolize in the white supremacist movement. Jmho

 

[BillyL]

Yep, its time to haul that flag down and throw it in a museum . .

 

[gunslingerdick]

I admit i've wavered back and forth on this. But after seeing the pic of roof holding the flag i'm convinced that its predominantly a symbol of hate and whatever historical benefit someone gets from displaying Lee's battle flag is outweighed by what its grown to symbolize in the white supremacist movement. Jmho

I guess I'll agree that NOW it is primarily a symbol of hate. But it was not originally. That's where I have the problem. What if white supremacists started using the U.S. flag when preaching their hate? Would we then remove that flag from all govt. buildings? Just because someone misuses something doesn't mean that the actual item being misused is inherently bad.

But it's obviously a problem for black folks. So in an effort to make blacks feel more comfortable living in the South, I can support it's removal. But that's a slippery slope. Where does it stop? What if another minority faction decided something else was offensive to them? Then do we meet their needs as well? If not, why? How many people have to be offended before we decide to meet their needs?

 

[BillyL]

Its being reported in the news that Lindsey Graham is now for the flag's removal from the state grounds.

 

[heelmanwilm]

I guess I'll agree that NOW it is primarily a symbol of hate. But it was not originally. That's where I have the problem. What if white supremacists started using the U.S. flag when preaching their hate? Would we then remove that flag from all govt. buildings? Just because someone misuses something doesn't mean that the actual item being misused is inherently bad.



But it's obviously a problem for black folks. So in an effort to make blacks feel more comfortable living in the South, I can support it's removal. But that's a slippery slope. Where does it stop? What if another minority faction decided something else was offensive to them? Then do we meet their needs as well? If not, why? How many people have to be offended before we decide to meet their needs?

I think, and i admit its totally subjective, u have to weigh the positive symbolism vs what a group finds to be the negative. A lot of people find offense with the us flag but i think reasonable people would agree the positive far outweighs the negative. The swastika was originally some mayan symbol iirc. Well the nazis took care of that.

 

[strummingram]

 

[strummingram]

It's also time for people to stop associating tribal symbols with human ideologies of racial, national, religious or any other superiority.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Like i said strum, i think most reasonable people would say theres
Far more positive symbolism associated with the us flag than
The neg from the kkk waving it. Not so with gen lee's battle flag

 

[strummingram]

Like i said strum, i think most reasonable people would say theres
Far more positive symbolism associated with the us flag than
The neg from the kkk waving it. Not so with gen lee's battle flag

As George Carlin said "I leave symbols for the symbol-minded."

Flags and symbols mean different things to different people. They can take all the flags down for all I care. I use them for geographical purposes at best. Sometimes there's a little artistic favoritism and/or nostalgia. Otherwise, I just see a colored piece of cloth. I don't consciously associate anything with this:

except "That's South Carolina's flag." Subconsciously, I'm probably saying "I'm not in Montana."

Same with the street names. If I see Martin Luther King Boulevard, or JEB Stuart Avenue, or George Washington Street... I think "That's MLK Blvd. How many more lights before I turn left?"

 

[heelmanwilm]

Well thats you and thats fine but you're in a miniscule minority i can assure u. Flags and such have historically held tremendous symbolism and associations. U even have one in your own screen name. (Ram)

 

[strummingram]

you're in a miniscule minority i can assure u.

Amen to that, brother!

 

[gunslingerdick]

I actually agree with Strum's sentiment here. Anything can be offensive if you try hard enough.

I think, and i admit its totally subjective, u have to weigh the positive symbolism vs what a group finds to be the negative. A lot of people find offense with the us flag but i think reasonable people would agree the positive far outweighs the negative. The swastika was originally some mayan symbol iirc. Well the nazis took care of that.

But that's the problem - it is subjective. So who gets to be the end all be all decision maker on what level of positive and negative symbolism each flag carries? Because you might rate the positive at a 5 and the negative at a 10 whereas someone else might rate the positive at an 8 and the negative at an 8, or so on and so on.

 

[lovetheHeels!]

I never understood why they use the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia on other Southern state's official buildings. Maybe in Virginia, but why not use an actual flag of the Confederacy instead of a battle flag.

 

[heelmanwilm]

I actually agree with Strum's sentiment here. Anything can be offensive if you try hard enough.




But that's the problem - it is subjective. So who gets to be the end all be all decision maker on what level of positive and negative symbolism each flag carries? Because you might rate the positive at a 5 and the negative at a 10 whereas someone else might rate the positive at an 8 and the negative at an 8, or so on and so on.

Maybe its like what makes a pic porn. U know it when u see it. Lol.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

Can you hear that sound? It's the sound of the ACC office planning the long-awaited ACC Baseball Tournament in Myrtle Beach.

 

[strummingram]

I never understood why they use the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia on other Southern state's official buildings. Maybe in Virginia, but why not use an actual flag of the Confederacy instead of a battle flag.

Exactly. A lot of liberties are being taken with that flag all around.

Here's an interesting little quibble and outcome over Georgia's State Flag.

It was this for many years:

Then it was crying and moaning about the Southern Cross being so prominent. So, they changed it to this:

You know what the First National Flag of the COnfederacy was? This:

The Stars and Bars

I just love compromise!

 

[TarHeelNation11]

^ That's all I can offer up on this thread, sorry guys. I don't want any part of publicly expressing my views on this issue.

BTW, the ideology behind this thread is very, very similar to the Saunders Hall thing.....which did get its name changed by the way. It's Carolina Hall now or something.

 

[strummingram]

Maybe take that Southern Cross ANV Battle Flag down and put the Stars and Bars up instead (next to the memorial) and people will walk by asking "What's that flag?"

 

[TarHeelNation11]

Exactly. A lot of liberties are being taken with that flag all around.

Here's an interesting little quibble and outcome over Georgia's State Flag.

It was this for many years:

Then it was crying and moaning about the Southern Cross being so prominent. So, they changed it to this:

You know what the First National Flag of the COnfederacy was? This:

The Stars and Bars

I just love compromise!

Haha.....strum, I think you and I are two of only like 25 people who realized what Georgia did with their flag change.

This is exactly the point about people getting upset by things they don't even understand because since GA changed their flag, you haven't heard a peep about it being racist any longer. Amusing, huh?

 

[strummingram]

^ That's all I can offer up on this thread, sorry guys. I don't want any part of publicly expressing my views on this issue.

BTW, the ideology behind this thread is very, very similar to the Saunders Hall thing.....which did get its name changed by the way. It's Carolina Hall now or something.

Another stupid move. Stop naming halls after anyone! If you're just going to hold them to the social standards of a society 200 years later! Take Washington and Jefferson of Mount Rushmore. They owned and sold African slaves. We don't want to appear as though we promote racial injustice.

The US Flag was held over a government-mandated segregated nation for almost 200 years.

 

[strummingram]

Haha.....strum, I think you and I are two of only like 25 people who realized what Georgia did with their flag change.

This is exactly the point about people getting upset by things they don't even understand because since GA changed their flag, you haven't heard a peep about it being racist any longer. Amusing, huh?

Well, it sort of proves heelman's (and everyone's) opinion. No one associates racism with the Stars and Bars. They DO associate it with that Southern Cross. It's amusing how the Stars and Bars represent the NATION of the Confederacy and the Battle Flag was used only by the Armies, and essentially, technically, are representing the same things. But, average people don't know squat about the Civil War anyway, especially now. It's really a shame because that war, and all of it's outcomes, circumstances and presence is what defined this nation entirely. As Shelby Foote said "it was our crossroads and it was a helluva crossroads."

 

[gteeitup]

it's coming down, and it's about time imo...either now, or in december during the next session.

they are meeting about it as we speak.

 

[strummingram]

Just out of curiosity here; Since everyone is ready for that Battle Flag to come down, would everyone be okay with replacing it with the Stars & Bars? Is that less offensive?

 

[gteeitup]

Just out of curiosity here; Since everyone is ready for that Battle Flag to come down, would everyone be okay with replacing it with the Stars & Bars? Is that less offensive?

that flag can also go into a museum

 

[DSouthr]

I do not like the fact that after such a horrible incident as this nut job pulled off, that politicians now feel the need to use such an aweful situation for political advantage.

Tell me folks, do we now arrest on suspision of murder anyone that flies the confererate flag outside their home? Because you have a bumper sticker on your car of the confederate flag does that make you automatically guilty of killing blacks in church?

We have one singular nut job that does something horrible and all the sudden the president blames the incident on the fact congress did not pass the gun control bill HE WANTED? Hillary uses it as her opportunity to get the minority vote behind her, funny to me how only republicians are labeled rascist?

SC, for being labeled a rascist state I think conducted itself exactly as it should have, no one, I mean no one had anything but condemnation for that nut jobs actions, there was NOTHING but out pouring of sympothy from the white community over what occurred at that church. And yet the actions of that one lone nut job begs calls for rascial discussion, discussion that no one really wants to have. No one really wants to have the very discussion Hillary or Obama call for because the truth is rasicm will be discovered as alive & well amoung the minorities just as bad it is amoung white people.

Obama just went on the national air waves and used the N word, let ANY white person of public note use that same word publically and they are persecuted beyound reason, ask Dan Imus how that works. Can you imagine what would have been said, what would have happened had Bush said the exact same thing on national air waves? There is a serious double standard folks, there are 2 sets of rules while the calls for equality are coming wide & loud?

I see what happened in Fergerson and I have to wonder, what the heck can those people be thinking. They burn down innocent businesses, they blame the cop when the truth was the cop was attacked in the first place? Those are not the actions of reasonable people, those are gang group mentality of destroy for the sake of destruction, no end game even considered. And we now have a president that rather than work to bring about a peaceful solution does nothing more than throw gas on an already buring fire and then step back and tell us how disappointed he is that the fire it hot?

It is the very actions we see now coming from politicians and the media that fan the flames of racism, they don't really want the issues resolved, they just want to fan the flames so they can have controversial news stories to push their ratings even higher.

Now I didn't vote for Obama, not because of his skin color but because I do not and did not agree with his politics but I did hold hope that as a black man that he would be in a unique position to allow us to have a candid open discussion about race. But that didn't happen, all that has happened is the politically correctness has gone on steriods and the flames of rascial divide have been fanned to red hot. This country is right now today more divided on race than it has been since the 70s and we have our current president to thank for that.

UNderstand the point folks, it is one thing to have maybe needed discussions on things like the flag in SC and gun control but it is a sad thing that such an aweful event is being used to advance those political agendas and I find that just very very wrong headed and shameful.

 

[Heels in Space]

I'm not sure why any Confederate flag should be flying on public grounds of any state or local government within the United States. Aside from the racial element, these are the flags of states that rejected, dissolved, and waged war against the United States. Their place is in history books and museums, not on public land.

And as for the racial element, anyone who still argues that the Civil War was not about slavery is lying to themselves. This is from my home state's declaration of secession:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

And this is from South Carolina's:

"Those [Northern] States have assume[d] the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection."

People can fly the flags of these causes if they want, but there should be no place for them on the public grounds of governments that are supposed to represent all citizens.

 

[heelmanwilm]

God if u wanna lose faith in humanity just search the #confederateflag tweets.

 

[strummingram]

Mississippi, you're next.

Then Alabama

Florida?

 

[Raising Heel]

Aside from the racial element, these are the flags of states that rejected, dissolved, and waged war against the United States.

And lost. That's the part that always strikes me as odd. It's like Moo U holding a parade in Raleigh for finishing 4th in the ACC.

 

[prlyles]

Yep, its time to haul that flag down and throw it in a museum . .

I agree. Someone said something yesterday that made a lot of sense. They said "We in the south have failed to protect our brand and have let hate groups damage it and now we must pay the price".

 

[strummingram]

I'm stealing this from a poster on the Iowa board, but it really puts it into grand perspective and forces the emphasis on what so many lack- CONTEXT!

"The Confederate flag issue in South Carolina is a text book example of one of the few flaws of Americans. We are only willing to accept simple right or wrong answers to complex questions and then categorize everyone based on their answer to those questions. Instead, level-headed, fair-minded and logical individuals on both sides of an issue can come to different conclusions on the same issue or question and they both can be right. Symbols such as a flag can have multiple historical and cultural meanings to different individuals.

To look at the Confederate flag issue in South Carolina, you have to recognize the history and the context. The Confederate Battle Flag was first flown above the state capitol building in 1961 as part of the state's centennial celebration of the Civil War, or as it was titled in South Carolina, the "Confederate War Centennial". In the resolution that was passed by the state legislature to hoist the flag, there was no end date and therefore it just remained there until 2000. There were clear racial superiority overtones to the organization and implementation of the states' official centennial celebration and it was clear that the underlying motivation for raising the battle flag above the state house was racial in nature. Based on this historical knowledge and context of the situation, I felt it was completely inappropriate to fly the battle flag above the South Carolina State House and it was 100% correct to remove it in 2000.

Then a historically correct version of the battle flag was then raised on the state house lawn in from of the Capitol building at a site that served as a memorial to South Carolina's Civil War dead. In this context, it was clear that this was a representation of the state's Civil War history. So I personally did not and still don't have any problem with the battle flag being flown at the memorial site under this context. From a historical perspective, the more accurate representation would be to fly one of the 3 different versions of the Confederate National Flag, which is different from the Confederate Battle Flag which is currently flown. Including it in a 3-flag display with the US flag and possibly the South Carolina Secession flag would be a display that would be impossible to claim any racial overtones.

So once again, fair-minded individuals can look at this issue and come up with different answers. It does not make one side morally superior to another."

 

[Heels in Space]

Strum, I understand what you're saying. And I'm not saying that anyone is objectively right or wrong on this issue. But the reason that context is hard to incorporate into the debate is because the Confederate battle flag is (rightly or wrongly) a symbol of something that is so indisputably evil and wrong: the subjugation of an entire race into forced labor for centuries.

I'm personally of the opinion that no Confederate memorials of any kind should still be on public property in 2015. I feel this way because I accept that the South fought the war primarily to defend and uphold the institution of slavery. As a born and raised Southerner, I view the Civil War as a dark stain on my home's history. It is a war that I am glad my ancestors lost. I don't advocate white-washing it; it should be in history books and museums. But I don't want to honor it or memorialize it in any way.

I understand that other people's views may differ, and nothing is stopping them from honoring or glorifying the Confederacy in private. I just don't think there is any place for it anymore in a government that is supposed to be of the people.

 

[strummingram]

Strum, I understand what you're saying. And I'm not saying that anyone is objectively right or wrong on this issue. But the reason that context is hard to incorporate into the debate is because the Confederate battle flag is (rightly or wrongly) a symbol of something that is so indisputably evil and wrong: the subjugation of an entire race into forced labor for centuries.

I'm personally of the opinion that no Confederate memorials of any kind should still be on public property in 2015. I feel this way because I accept that the South fought the war primarily to defend and uphold the institution of slavery. As a born and raised Southerner, I view the Civil War as a dark stain on my home's history. It is a war that I am glad my ancestors lost. I don't advocate white-washing it; it should be in history books and museums. But I don't want to honor it or memorialize it in any way.

I understand that other people's views may differ, and nothing is stopping them from honoring or glorifying the Confederacy in private. I just don't think there is any place for it anymore in a government that is supposed to be of the people.

Well, it's supposed to be "of the people" but it's not. So, we put up with that hypocrisy all the time.

Slavery is what brought the country to a war. No Slavery, no war. But, for someone to presume that the South only wanted to perpetuate it and the North only wanted to abolish it, and then act upon that assumption, it is absolutely wrong.

The Civil War is a vital part of our history as a state and country. It's absolutely vital to understand that war as best you possibly can, in my opinion. So many generalizations and assumptions are made and attitudes and opinions based on those misunderstandings and inaccuracies, that it makes for more mistakes and inaccuracies later on. What I am ashamed of is the violent racial groups, like the KKK, that stole the flag to represent their ideology. I am ashamed of the original founders that didn't have the courage to abolish it in 1783.

Monuments to our past are reminders that we need. The only issue I have with War memorials is that they glorify WAR! War, to me, is quite different from what most people think. To me, it's quite simply poor, younger men fighting for wealthy older men's private property. That's pretty ugly for most people, since most people are more likely to identify with the poor, young men who fought and/or died. I wish there were a flag/symbol that represented the lie that those in power use to get the masses to slaughter each other for their gain. I would make monuments using those symbols every day.

 

[keysersosay#1]

The DEMOCRAT party's history of racism and racists is massive and it goes back a LONG way. Here are just a few of the names associated with the dems that you never hear about in the media


Richard Russell ..... the CURRENT US SENATE office bldg. is named in his honor

When will THAT be changed????



Robert Byrd

former US senator who has half of WVA named in his honor as he directed a massive amount of taxpayer $$ into his state. He of course was a former grand Klugel of the KKK

Any thoughts on old Bobby???


William Fulbright............ mentor of one Slick Willy Clinton. this segregationist has a world renowned scholarship named in his honor. Any thoughts about changing that one????


I can assure you these are just the tip of the iceberg .Time simply does not permit me to cite example after example of the Democrat hack racists that have really gotten a pass from their pals in the LWM over the past 50 years. it was the votes of REPUBLICANS that passed the Civil Rights act of 64...over the Southern Democrats who were such a force in politics particularly in the Senate.


The democrat party has conned generation after generation of blacks into believing that THEY have been the ones "fighting for them"

it has been the exact opposite and maybe, in time, blacks will HOPEFULLY see that the democrat party has kept them on the urban plantation for 50 years...causing them such misery and suffering, all for the sole purpose of maintaining the democrats political power.

 

[gunslingerdick]

But, for someone to presume that the South only wanted to perpetuate it and the North only wanted to abolish it, and then act upon that assumption, it is absolutely wrong.

QFT

 

[strummingram]

Oh, goody... we can argue about partisan responsibility and culpability now. That always reaps huge benefits and creates huge accomplishments.

 

[Heels in Space]

But, for someone to presume that the South only wanted to perpetuate it and the North only wanted to abolish it, and then act upon that assumption, it is absolutely wrong.

I didn't actually say that. And I agree that the North was not primarily fighting to abolish slavery. They were fighting to preserve the Union.

But the South was fighting primarily to preserve and uphold the institution of slavery. Nothing else would have caused it to go to war. It's evident if you read the declarations of secession, some of which I posted. I was taught growing up that the war was fought over states' rights, which it was to some extent. But the right that Southern states were overwhelmingly concerned with was the right to own other human beings as property.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I didn't actually say that. And I agree that the North was not primarily fighting to abolish slavery. They were fighting to preserve the Union.

But the South was fighting primarily to preserve and uphold the institution of slavery. Nothing else would have caused it to go to war. It's evident if you read the declarations of secession, some of which I posted. I was taught growing up that the war was fought over states' rights, which it was to some extent. But the right that Southern states were overwhelmingly concerned with was the right to own other human beings as property.

Had it not been slavery, it would have been some other form of states rights eventually. The regions were just so different.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

Banning the Confederate battle flag is inconsistent with the First Amendment right to free speech. Whether that flag should fly over state capital grounds or not is up to the states as expressed by the will of the people reflected in the actions of their elected leaders. Nikki is calling for the flag to come down in Columbia. The State Legislature will decide from there. The will of the people will prevail, I'm sure.

OBTW, if you've ever been to the slave market in downtown Charleston - just blocks from the church where these murders occurred - you will see the Confederate Battle Flag marketed prominently. It is a tourist attraction. All sorts of merchandising is being done playing on the flag. I suppose those calling for the flag to be banned would like to see those merchants out of business... All kinds of historical trinkets are sold there playing on the Civil War and the Confederate battle flag. Put those guys out of business? What about books sold by the thousands that have a point of view sympathetic to the South. Put those guys out of business? Ever watch North and South? Should that mini-series be banned as well? Should any merchandised item in whatever form ever produced that is remotely sympathetic to the Southern point of view be forever banned?

 

[strummingram]

I didn't actually say that. And I agree that the North was not primarily fighting to abolish slavery. They were fighting to preserve the Union.

But the South was fighting primarily to preserve and uphold the institution of slavery. Nothing else would have caused it to go to war. It's evident if you read the declarations of secession, some of which I posted. I was taught growing up that the war was fought over states' rights, which it was to some extent. But the right that Southern states were overwhelmingly concerned with was the right to own other human beings as property.

I think the overwhelming concern was the profit being made from them. Same with the North. The North was capitalizing on the South's earnings from the free labor, too.

Wars are fought for money, resources, influence and power. It has squat to do with people being "free." I do agree that Slavery was a wedge that just grew and grew. I think the abolitionists were the ones that helped end slavery most of all. Not many of them were in the South (if any at all). I think they had a huge influence on the Republican Party of the time (which was fairly new).

I read that the Confederate Constitution outlawed international slave trade. Too bad the US Constitution lacked it.