Thank you. Just last week -- before Roof's statement about trying to incite a race war and before his obviously racist manifestos were leaked -- there were plenty of people trying to frame the shooting as an attack on Christians.
Is it time for SC to take down the conf flag?
- Thread starter heelmanwilm
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I only know of one racist that has ever posted on this board, and I have him on ignore, and I'm not guessing, I know.
And I'll be the first to say, that just because someone flies the confederate flag, that it doesn't make them a racist.
Am I happy that Virginia has eliminated that option for their car plates . . Yes, I am.
Am I happy that major retail/online stores are no longer selling that flag, why yes, I am.
I only know of one racist that has ever posted on this board, and I have him on ignore, and I'm not guessing, I know.
And I'll be the first to say, that just because someone flies the confederate flag, that it doesn't make them a racist.
Am I happy that Virginia has eliminated that option for their car plates . . Yes, I am.
Am I happy that major retail/online stores are no longer selling that flag, why yes, I am.
SCV has many black members. You are correct what Billy did was in very poor taste.
That's what I would have thought you would have said.
And I will take it one step further- if I see someone with a confederate flag flying, I am going to guess that person is racist if I give it any thought. Just like when I see someone in a red pickup with a Moo sticker, I think the owner is an inbred redneck.
Jesus...she has no shame in her grandstanding. She's a disgusting piece of trash. She lets 4 Americans die and gets indignant when asked about it but feels the selling of flags is something she wants to tackle. You can't make that kind of stuff up.
Never said I was right. I said that was my guess.
However, and like it or not, that is what the confederate flag stands for these days with a significant number of people who display it.
How so . . . ?
By posting an example of a Va. State license plate . . ? If, you google 'Virginia confederate flag license plate' that is almost the first pic that is displayed. The discussion that I was having was over the use of the confederate flag on state sponsored expressions. Maybe if you had taken more time to read my post and looked past the plate you'd have gotten the gist of what I was saying.
There simply was nothing I posted in poor taste.
Nice try though, Mikey . .
That is the symbol the SCV has always used, it's not simply the "Rebel Flag"! READ THE DERN THING Billy.
Yes but other areas of the country have been historically much more aggressive in fighting racism.
The segregationists of the 50s and 60s are to blame for the now recognized meaning of the rebel flag.
The American flag will be the next flag to be banned should the most radical liberal elements get their way... Just a matter of time.
Agreed, but by the left's reasoning, such symbols that were used during WWII by the Nazis - like the Iron Cross - should be banned as well, even if there use predated WWII...
Fort Lee, Fort Bragg, A.P. Hill are not going anywhere for now. CNN Story
But, you know, in a sense, it is almost an insult to the Rebel generals anyway. Robert E. Lee and Braxton Bragg might have eve been insulted for having a US Military base named for them. I dunno. Lee was a very impressive soldier in the US Army before secession. He was asked to be in command of the US Army by Lincoln before VA seceded. I suppose, as always, it has to do with context.
But, you know, in a sense, it is almost an insult to the Rebel generals anyway. Robert E. Lee and Braxton Bragg might have eve been insulted for having a US Military base named for them. I dunno. Lee was a very impressive soldier in the US Army before secession. He was asked to be in command of the US Army by Lincoln before VA seceded. I suppose, as always, it has to do with context.
I could see that but the Gadsden flag will probably be next since the Demascats want to portray the tea party groups as racists. Bearing "false witness against thy neighbor" is first tool Dem's pulll out of the bag. Those poor shot people weren't even buried yet and Hillary was blaming Donald Trump's announcment for the shooting.
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It is a symbol of a bygone time that we should be able to move on from. Take it down and put it in a museum. It's one thing to be proud that our ancestors had the courage to stand up for their beliefs, but the South lost and, if I'm not mistaken, all of the seceding states have been re-admitted to the union.
That's true. It did end. They were readmitted. So, really, why should rational people be that uptight about the flag itself? Put them in museums, put them on clotheslines, put them on dumpsters... what difference does it make? I only suggest removal from public government locations because most people are wound so damned tight, and totally incapable of forgetting, forgiving and leaving the actual event in the past. So much so, that they force their personal ideology and attitudes on everything from the past into the present and expect everything to comply. Well, that's simply irrational.
The problem, as I see it, with this flag hysteria is that it will snowball... just like it's doing now. The museums won't be safe. People who display it in any way will be fined or jailed or who knows what. It's an extreme, misplaced reaction to a terrible crime that had not one damned thing to do with the Confederate States of America. All this restriction and denying of use of the flag will do is reopen wounds and invigorate any dormant hate that was dying. This is going to start a whole new wave of racial tension. The flag is a flag. People give it meaning and life that it can never give itself.
HOGWASH! I've lived coast-coast and been all over, the South has no monopoly on racism. We way ahead of some.
No one is claiming a monopoly. It's just my opinion that what went down in the 50s and 60s framed the Confederate flag, much moreso than any other icon, as a symbol of segregation/racism.
My observation is that people who are worked up about this are worked up because they don't want the government telling them what to do. I get that. But the confederate flag belongs in a museum or on private property, not flying on the lawn of the state building in SC.
My official stance and last words on this...............................
My sisters will tell you, I'm a REDNECK through and through. Love Jesus-Love my country-Love my family and my friends-hunting-fishing etc. I'll be the 1st to admit, I don't understand all the flap about the Confederate Flag. But then again, I'm not Black either. Not exactly sure when the Rebel Flag all the sudden stood for Slavery, BUT since it does offend my many Black Friends-Brothers & Sisters in Christ I choose not to make a public display of it. I do appreciate my Southern Heritage-wouldn't trade it for the world. HATE what that skum bag did in Charleston! Hope he gets exactly what he deserves. Meanwhile, to all Southerners-be proud of who you are and where you grew up, no one can take that from you. Just my thoughts-nothing more-nothing less, time to go fishing.
My sisters will tell you, I'm a REDNECK through and through. Love Jesus-Love my country-Love my family and my friends-hunting-fishing etc. I'll be the 1st to admit, I don't understand all the flap about the Confederate Flag. But then again, I'm not Black either. Not exactly sure when the Rebel Flag all the sudden stood for Slavery, BUT since it does offend my many Black Friends-Brothers & Sisters in Christ I choose not to make a public display of it. I do appreciate my Southern Heritage-wouldn't trade it for the world. HATE what that skum bag did in Charleston! Hope he gets exactly what he deserves. Meanwhile, to all Southerners-be proud of who you are and where you grew up, no one can take that from you. Just my thoughts-nothing more-nothing less, time to go fishing.
Most interesting is that the state of SC took the flag down 15 years ago and the late Rev Pinkney supported it. That flag has not been an issue in my state since then. Now since the media jumped back on it now it is again and that is a joke. Dylann Roof is a evil human being and he should die, but the flag was and is not the reason. And I agree with Mike. Very proud of my southern heritage and the way the people of Charleston handled this. Funny how all the rioting takes place up NORTH yet the southerners continue to show class and a love of God Almighty. JMHO.
The flag does not need to be flown by government agencies on public property. If you want to fly one from your own house or put it on your truck or wear a t-shirt, have at it.
I honestly don't understand how anyone can take offense to my position.
I honestly don't understand how anyone can take offense to my position.
Sadly, most southerners today seem incapable of understanding that the South waged and then lost a war that nearly destroyed the United States. The South lost decisively. The rebel cause was unjust, immoral and treasonous. The economic justification was unseemly. There is no part of the Confederate cause of which to be proud. There is no moral high ground here. There is no flag to fly with pride. Secession, treason, slavery, bigotry, racism - these are not what we wish to memorialize and romanticize with a symbol of hatred waving obstinately over a statehouse.
I say we because I too am southern born, southern bred and when I die.......having spent considerable time in NYC and Atlanta I can honestly say when it comes to the Tar Heel state, there is no place like home. But having said that, I too remember growing up in a relatively rural area and a lot of our encounters with someone wearing a rebel flag on their person or displayed on their vehicle didn't go well - but I digress.
The South does not hold on to the war as if they never actually lost and as if their cause was just. It appears Appomattox was a setback only. The war still is being waged. And that is unfortunate.
I say we because I too am southern born, southern bred and when I die.......having spent considerable time in NYC and Atlanta I can honestly say when it comes to the Tar Heel state, there is no place like home. But having said that, I too remember growing up in a relatively rural area and a lot of our encounters with someone wearing a rebel flag on their person or displayed on their vehicle didn't go well - but I digress.
The South does not hold on to the war as if they never actually lost and as if their cause was just. It appears Appomattox was a setback only. The war still is being waged. And that is unfortunate.
I believe you could learn a lot more about the war between the states, and just why and how it came about. I would suggest you read more history books and then if you still feel the same, I wouldn't have a problem with your opinion. From reading your post above it seems obvious to me you haven't read up too much on the true history of that conflict. I would post some educational information here but I am sure no one would read it because they believe what they believe. The old you can lead a horse to water analogy. First start with the real reason for the Secession then go from there....Also please be aware I am not trying to start a flaming war with anyone here, but to know ALL the facts make it much easier to understand the overall reasons for the war between the states.
I'm pretty sure I know all I need to know about the civil war, but I'm not overly oppose to learning more. So enlighten me and post some of those gems, some of those nuggets of wisdom, and some of those real reasons for secession......But before doing so riddle me this OS59: What was the South's agenda upon winning the war, after all they were fighting to protect their way of life, right? So isn't it reasonable to believe that they were fighting to keep slavery intact and expand their way of living further to the wild wild west for economic growth? Upon winning would the South have ended slavery? If not how would they justify it to the world today? And perhaps the biggest question of all is how would the South winning have reshaped this country - perhaps into three independent countries: The Northern States of America, The Confederate States of America, and Mexico?
I'm also not trying to inflame the discussion so you should read my post in your best Mr. Rogers voice as you can. With that said, let me be clear on my position - I think the war was fought solely for the purpose of keeping slavery intact, no more, no less. After all it was the only economic factor that separated the North from the South. Each region/state had its own unique cash crops and shared others, but it was the abundance of free labor that the south was trying so hard to protect. Let's keep it real, they didn't have to provide any medical or health insurance for them. They didn't have to spend any resources feeding them, just give them what was picked over from the market and gut a pig and let them make do, right?
OS59, I'm more interested in your explaination of what would have been the South's agenda had they won the war. Imo that would explain it all. Any lack of explanation can and will only solidify my position. So I standby my previous post. In order for one governing power to enslave another race it is only reasonable to believe that the governing power has to be just a wee bit racist. And don't take my word for it, just take the first definition offered for the word treason: "the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government." Isn't that exactly what the South did by seceding and ultimately declaring war on the Union/US?
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The South lost, slavery was abolished, and that is the way it should have always been and will forever be... But, to eradicate the history of what happened and try to remove any and all vestiges of who was involved, why they fought, and memorialization of history is creepy to me. This isn't post-war Vietnam...
Which begs the question "Why did 95% of those who didn't own slaves fight to keep them?"
Many books I've read on the subject indicate the ordinary Southerner of the time understood the fight to be about States Rights and opposition to the North imposing its will on the South...the will being, of course, to prevent the expansion of slavery to the frontier territories. Ordinary, non-slave owning Southerners of the time had a keen understanding of the impact on the Southern economy and the Southern way of life if slavery was not allowed to expand Westward... Expansion was viewed as critical to the South's economic security. And, the overwhelming majority of Southerners had been raised to view blacks as property and a tools to maintain that security.
I believe that is why so many non-slave owning Southerners signed up to fight the North. And, it was a good thing they failed.
In relation to that, and the nature of the times, its worth noting that its speculated by historians that two-thirds of white people came to North America as indentured servants, and didn't step off the boat like Rhett Butler and Scarlet O'Hara. The period is more complciated than the cultural Marxists (who run most ethic/gender etc depts) would like anyone to know.
Indeed, its not well known that a former black indentured servant named Anthony Johnson became the first "legal" slaveowner in Virginia in mid 1600's, and that Indian tribes also fought with confederacy. In fact, a few years ago the Chrokee
"Cherokees eject slave descendants"
Members of the Cherokee Nation of native Americans have voted to revoke tribal citizenship for descendants of black slaves the Cherokees once owned...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6416735.stm
First slave owner was black (PBS Frontline):
"Anthony Johnson, one of the earliest African Americans to settle Virginia.. is a pivotal figure in the debate over the origins of slavery...a central figure in the debate (he) is an utterly bizarre and "politically incorrect" twist of fate. From evidence found in the earliest legal documents extant, it is Anthony Johnson who we now must recognize as the nation's first slaveholder. After all, the court battle he eventually won in 1655 to keep John Casor (Ceasar?) as his servant for life, identifies this unfortunate soul as the first slave in the recorded history of our country."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/johnson.html
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