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A little note on "stats"...

gary-7

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Jan 27, 2003
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...in particular, the "Assist".

This is THE most subjective stat in all of basketball, and has been that way for several decades. It is also thus the most misunderstood and misreported stat, as witnessed Saturday.

There was a time, eons ago, when an Assist only occurred without a dribble --- in other words if you hit an open guy on a fast break and the dude decided to take a dribble to set up his dunk, you didn't get the Assist. Totally unfair... and that (thankfully for us PGs) changed. The current criteria have been in place for decades.... but they are still a bit nebulous. Here's a good, standardly accepted definition I lifted from elsewhere:

"A player is credited with an Assist when the player makes, in the judgment of the statistician, the principal pass contributing directly to a field goal (or an awarded score of two or three points). Only one Assist is to be credited on any field goal and only when the pass was a major part of the play. Such a pass should be either (a) a pass that finds a player free after he or she has maneuvered without the ball for a positional advantage, or (b) a pass that gives the receiving player a positional advantage he or she otherwise would not have had. The receiving player can still dribble if it is part of his normal action to complete the goal. Philosophy. An Assist should be more than a routine pass that just happens to be followed by a field goal. It should be a conscious effort to find the open player or to help a player work free."


The official Assist is typically awarded by the home stat keeper, and that is often a problem. On one hand you had the infamous NC State stat guy who awarded them to Chris Corchiani for breathing. Now, he was a great passer and got a lot of legit Assists, but how often did he just pass the ball over to Rodney Monroe, who would just dribble down to the corner and fire up a 3-pointer and still get credit? Folks around the ACC called those "Corchiani Assists". On the other hand you get stingy stat guys who don't understand the full scope of the definition... especially in away games.

The standard I used for my stat girls when I coached was in line with the quoted definition above, and that's the correct criteria I use when I keep them myself. The last line sums it up perfectly. If, for example, you feed the post in a way that puts him in an advantageous position and he scores directly off of it, then that is properly by definition an Assist --- even if he does an up-and-under to avoid a shot-blocker or uses a power dribble off a drop-step to score.

Just so y'all know, we had at least 4 more actual Assists Saturday than we were credited for. For example, I keep hearing folks repeat that Joel Berry had zero (he actually had 2, just for the record). On the other hand,there was a TO that was missed (on a questionable "palming" call) as well. Bottom line is, outside of actual scoring, individual stats are often subjective and sometimes misleading, like in as I mentioned before how the guy who ends up with the ball often gets credit for a steal perpetrated by a teammate. Be careful reading too much into individual lines in a given game.
 
On the same note, if a guy gets credited with an assist it is sometimes actually the direct result of the pass to him and the vision someone else saw when delivering the ball to the guy who would make the 'assist'. Marshall was pretty awesome at this. Even though he had a ton of assists he also had a large number of times where he knew what the defense would do and knew that one pass here would lead to an easy pass to someone else (sort of like the hockey assist). Stats are what they are and they are good to use. While they are sometimes misleading, they are sometimes pretty indicative of effective play as well. They are not the final say on how guys play though.
 
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...in particular, the "Assist".

This is THE most subjective stat in all of basketball, and has been that way for several decades. It is also thus the most misunderstood and misreported stat, as witnessed Saturday.

There was a time, eons ago, when an Assist only occurred without a dribble --- in other words if you hit an open guy on a fast break and the dude decided to take a dribble to set up his dunk, you didn't get the Assist. Totally unfair... and that (thankfully for us PGs) changed. The current criteria have been in place for decades.... but they are still a bit nebulous. Here's a good, standardly accepted definition I lifted from elsewhere:

"A player is credited with an Assist when the player makes, in the judgment of the statistician, the principal pass contributing directly to a field goal (or an awarded score of two or three points). Only one Assist is to be credited on any field goal and only when the pass was a major part of the play. Such a pass should be either (a) a pass that finds a player free after he or she has maneuvered without the ball for a positional advantage, or (b) a pass that gives the receiving player a positional advantage he or she otherwise would not have had. The receiving player can still dribble if it is part of his normal action to complete the goal. Philosophy. An Assist should be more than a routine pass that just happens to be followed by a field goal. It should be a conscious effort to find the open player or to help a player work free."


The official Assist is typically awarded by the home stat keeper, and that is often a problem. On one hand you had the infamous NC State stat guy who awarded them to Chris Corchiani for breathing. Now, he was a great passer and got a lot of legit Assists, but how often did he just pass the ball over to Rodney Monroe, who would just dribble down to the corner and fire up a 3-pointer and still get credit? Folks around the ACC called those "Corchiani Assists". On the other hand you get stingy stat guys who don't understand the full scope of the definition... especially in away games.

The standard I used for my stat girls when I coached was in line with the quoted definition above, and that's the correct criteria I use when I keep them myself. The last line sums it up perfectly. If, for example, you feed the post in a way that puts him in an advantageous position and he scores directly off of it, then that is properly by definition an Assist --- even if he does an up-and-under to avoid a shot-blocker or uses a power dribble off a drop-step to score.

Just so y'all know, we had at least 4 more actual Assists Saturday than we were credited for. For example, I keep hearing folks repeat that Joel Berry had zero (he actually had 2, just for the record). On the other hand,there was a TO that was missed (on a questionable "palming" call) as well. Bottom line is, outside of actual scoring, individual stats are often subjective and sometimes misleading, like in as I mentioned before how the guy who ends up with the ball often gets credit for a steal perpetrated by a teammate. Be careful reading too much into individual lines in a given game.

Thank you for this gary, I wanted to say something along the same theme since listening to the pod cast this morning. I am not sure I understand why folks have this need to down grade what Joel Berry does for this team. I mean, stats are wonderful but stats never have nor ever will tell the whole story. I see & hear folks saying Berry had no assists vs Texas but excuse me while I believe that we scored 80pts against a tuff Texas team IN THEIR HOUSE, right after exams by the way, I don't consider that a poor offensive showing. Assists are a look at how an offense runs.

IT seems like if the stat line for a game does not look great for AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER then that player had a bad game in the view of to many folk but the truth is the stats only tell a part of the whole story. Darn skippy, no assist was given to Joel even thou he hits Brice with a very nice pass but Brice took a couple dribbles. Sweetest pass on the planet is not an assist if the guy catching the ball does not finish. I re-watched that game a couple times, Joel did not have a bad game, his shots didn't drop but he took good shots. Joel was anything but a black hole for the ball, he worked it. Joel in that first half was by far our best back court defender, Felix & Smith were absolutely torching Marcus & Nate.

Look, I don't mind at all saying Joel berry has a bad game when he has one but as I have told SJung a hundred times, watch the game and stop being worried about a dang stat sheet. Joel Berry does a ton that never shows up on a stat sheet, sorry if that is not popular to say or if it conflicts with this site's managements opinions.
 
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I don't think people down grade Berry very often. He didn't play all that well against Texas and that has little to do with the stats. He wasn't terrible just not all that great. He has been pretty damn good most of the year and is a critical part of our success going forward. Everyone should be (and is I think) happy about that. Of all the guys people criticize, he is not at the top of the list IMO. I think some people are just overprotective of him for some reason.
 
On the same note, if a guy gets credited with an assist it is sometimes actually the direct result of the pass to him and the vision someone else saw when delivering the ball to the guy who would make the 'assist'. Marshall was pretty awesome at this. Even though he had a ton of assists he also had a large number of times where he knew what the defense would do and knew that one pass here would lead to an easy pass to someone else (sort of like the hockey assist). Stats are what they are and they are good to use. While they are sometimes misleading, they are sometimes pretty indicative of effective play as well. They are not the final say on how guys play though.
You are spot on, brother.
I'll tell you a true story. I once coached this kid in HS (our 7th man) who wasn't the best player but had good passing vision. Passing was his "thing" since he wasn't the best athlete or scorer. However, he was determined to make THE pass for a flashy dime instead of the sensible pass to move the defense, and as a result got into a turnover jag which affected his PT. He got pretty down on himself, so one day I stopped practice after he had forced yet another risky pass that failed.
He put his head down and I'm sure he thought I was gonna yell at him, but in front of the whole team (who were still in position), I said out loud "John, you have the best passing instincts on this team, but you can't always go for the Assist --- it's every bit as important to 'make the pass that leads to the pass'". Then I showed him what would happen with the set on the floor if he had done that by rerunning the same play with me playing his position. I told him "you wouldn't have gotten the Assist in the boxscore, but you got one as far as your coach and team are concerned. That seemed to register --- like a light went on --- the kid only had like 4 TOs the rest of the season and was a valuable bench player on a championship team.
I swear I watch some of these high-skill kids in AAU and coming into high-D1 programs and it's amazing how many don't get that, or have to be taught that once they get to college.
Butter had it his DNA, and so does JB.
 
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I don't think people down grade Berry very often. He didn't play all that well against Texas and that has little to do with the stats. He wasn't terrible just not all that great. He has been pretty damn good most of the year and is a critical part of our success going forward. Everyone should be (and is I think) happy about that. Of all the guys people criticize, he is not at the top of the list IMO. I think some people are just overprotective of him for some reason.
Cory, from my perspective it's because some folks (who should know better) don't see, or perhaps don't choose to appreciate the non-stat-sheet stuff (cough, cough, some of our writers, cough) --- the ball movement, the spacing the set-up and delivery, not to mention the disruption on defense.
I held this back at the time, lest it sound critical of others, but this is a direct quote from one of our Bigs last season:
"All I know is, when Berry's in the game I get the ball when I want it, where I want it, and where I can do something with it."
 
SJung rarely posts positive comments. He seems to show up after a loss. OP is spot on, as are the successive posts. As players become evermore athletic, subtleties of this beautiful game are less recognized, except by coaches and astute fans.
 
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Cory, from my perspective it's because some folks (who should know better) don't see, or perhaps don't choose to appreciate the non-stat-sheet stuff (cough, cough, some of our writers, cough) --- the ball movement, the spacing the set-up and delivery, not to mention the disruption on defense.
I held this back at the time, lest it sound critical of others, but this is a direct quote from one of our Bigs last season:
"All I know is, when Berry's in the game I get the ball when I want it, where I want it, and where I can do something with it."

Getting the ball where they need it is pretty important for bigs for sure. If someone makes an entry pass, even just a simple one from the wing, where it needs to be it can be the difference between the player making a quick move and scoring and not really being able to do much with it. It is one of the more underrated aspects of any guard or wing player. It is definitely one of those things that doesn't always show up. Heck, it is just as important on the perimeter as well. If I make a pass on time the guy can shoot or drive or do whatever. If I'm late with it or he has to reach for it or pause then at this level it makes a huge difference in what he can do.
 
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Getting the ball where they need it is pretty important for bigs for sure. If someone makes an entry pass, even just a simple one from the wing, where it needs to be it can be the difference between the player making a quick move and scoring and not really being able to do much with it. It is one of the more underrated aspects of any guard or wing player. It is definitely one of those things that doesn't always show up. Heck, it is just as important on the perimeter as well. If I make a pass on time the guy can shoot or drive or do whatever. If I'm late with it or he has to reach for it or pause then at this level it makes a huge difference in what he can do.
Yep. I can tell ya --- and coaches talk about it all the time --- when, where and how to make entry passes to the post is the single hardest skill to teach guards and wings. Some kids understand it naturally, but most don't. If a Big works his behind off to get a defender on his hip, get him the damned ball to his free hand! Put it in he wrong place, or wait too long, and all that is for naught.
And yeah, even for guard-to-guard passes it's important. One of our mantras was "put it in his trigger zone", i.e. where the player could catch it in "triple-threat" position to be able to shoot, drive or make the next pass without any wasted motion.
 
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Thank you for this gary, I wanted to say something along the same theme since listening to the pod cast this morning. I am not sure I understand why folks have this need to down grade what Joel Berry does for this team. I mean, stats are wonderful but stats never have nor ever will tell the whole story. I see & hear folks saying Berry had no assists vs Texas but excuse me while I believe that we scored 80pts against a tuff Texas team IN THEIR HOUSE, right after exams by the way, I don't consider that a poor offensive showing. Assists are a look at how an offense runs.

IT seems like if the stat line for a game does not look great for AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER then that player had a bad game in the view of to many folk but the truth is the stats only tell a part of the whole story. Darn skippy, no assist was given to Joel even thou he hits Brice with a very nice pass but Brice took a couple dribbles. Sweetest pass on the planet is not an assist if the guy catching the ball does not finish. I re-watched that game a couple times, Joel did not have a bad game, his shots didn't drop but he took good shots. Joel was anything but a black hole for the ball, he worked it. Joel in that first half was by far our best back court defender, Felix & Smith were absolutely torching Marcus & Nate.

Look, I don't mind at all saying Joel berry has a bad game when he has one but as I have told SJung a hundred times, watch the game and stop being worried about a dang stat sheet. Joel Berry does a ton that never shows up on a stat sheet, sorry if that is not popular to say or if it conflicts with this site's managements opinions.
Dave, I'm gonna add one last thing to this thread post-Tulane game: Everyone should go watch Roy's post-game presser. One of the questioners was intelligent enough to point out that JB had 4 "coach's assists" vs Texas. Those are what I referred in another post that Dean Smith kept, which included blown assists and fouls on the receiver..
 
Dave, I'm gonna add one last thing to this thread post-Tulane game: Everyone should go watch Roy's post-game presser. One of the questioners was intelligent enough to point out that JB had 4 "coach's assists" vs Texas. Those are what I referred in another post that Dean Smith kept, which included blown assists and fouls on the receiver..

Last night example of just this, maybe it was Theo, could have been Berry, have to re-watch to be sure but but James rotates down and thru and the pass is fired from the foul line, damn sweet pass but James didn't cut hard and expect the ball as he was supposed to, that is a easy catch & finish by Brice. Hicks, or Meeks but ended as a turn over because James didn't cut hard or look for the pass. The stat sheet calls it a TO for the passer and reflects nothing of James involvement.

I don't mean this to insult anyone but I honestly believe most fans get so caught up in ball watching that they miss most of the off the ball action, they see the result of the action but miss a lot of what caused it in the first place. Folks will see a guy like Berry (just as an example) fly out late to try to challenge a jump shooter that nails a trey and they only see the ball shot over Joel's out stretched arms but they don't consider that guy was set up to be open 3 or 4 touches earlier where the defensive assignment was blown and the guy shot over that looks like the guy missing his assignment was actually covering for someone else.

One of the more common problems we have is Roy teaches his guards to funnel the driver in to the teeth of our defense and yet when the teeth of our defense does not rotate over it looks like our guard blew it, it hangs that guard out on an island.

IN fairness, did notice something Joel Berry needs to work on a couple times last night. Big man catches the ball on the block and turns on our defender, Joel is concerned with the spot up on the wing and I understand that but when the big man puts the ball on the floor, I want Joel or whom ever the guard is to attack the big man's dribble looking for the strip, has to be timed right or it gives up the easy spot up trey that I know folks hate but you have to attack a big man when he puts the ball on the floor, noticed twice off top my head we didn't attack and I screamed at Joel for one of those.
 
On the same note, if a guy gets credited with an assist it is sometimes actually the direct result of the pass to him and the vision someone else saw when delivering the ball to the guy who would make the 'assist'. Marshall was pretty awesome at this. Even though he had a ton of assists he also had a large number of times where he knew what the defense would do and knew that one pass here would lead to an easy pass to someone else (sort of like the hockey assist). Stats are what they are and they are good to use. While they are sometimes misleading, they are sometimes pretty indicative of effective play as well. They are not the final say on how guys play though.


Yes he was Cory. Kendall Marshall was a pro at the "Dean Smith Assist". I think I remember reading somewhere that had assists been credited like Dean Smith did, Kendall would've averaged somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-18 assists a game.
 
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You are spot on, brother.
I'll tell you a true story. I once coached this kid in HS (our 7th man) who wasn't the best player but had good passing vision. Passing was his "thing" since he wasn't the best athlete or scorer. However, he was determined to make THE pass for a flashy dime instead of the sensible pass to move the defense, and as a result got into a turnover jag which affected his PT. He got pretty down on himself, so one day I stopped practice after he had forced yet another risky pass that failed.
He put his head down and I'm sure he thought I was gonna yell at him, but in front of the whole team (who were still in position), I said out loud "John, you have the best passing instincts on this team, but you can't always go for the Assist --- it's every bit as important to 'make the pass that leads to the pass'". Then I showed him what would happen with the set on the floor if he had done that by rerunning the same play with me playing his position. I told him "you wouldn't have gotten the Assist in the boxscore, but you got one as far as your coach and team are concerned. That seemed to register --- like a light went on --- the kid only had like 4 TOs the rest of the season and was a valuable bench player on a championship team.
I swear I watch some of these high-skill kids in AAU and coming into high-D1 programs and it's amazing how many don't get that, or have to be taught that once they get to college.
Butter had it his DNA, and so does JB.
AKA, the Tokoto effect.
 
Last night example of just this, maybe it was Theo, could have been Berry, have to re-watch to be sure but but James rotates down and thru and the pass is fired from the foul line, damn sweet pass but James didn't cut hard and expect the ball as he was supposed to, that is a easy catch & finish by Brice. Hicks, or Meeks but ended as a turn over because James didn't cut hard or look for the pass. The stat sheet calls it a TO for the passer and reflects nothing of James involvement.

I don't mean this to insult anyone but I honestly believe most fans get so caught up in ball watching that they miss most of the off the ball action, they see the result of the action but miss a lot of what caused it in the first place. Folks will see a guy like Berry (just as an example) fly out late to try to challenge a jump shooter that nails a trey and they only see the ball shot over Joel's out stretched arms but they don't consider that guy was set up to be open 3 or 4 touches earlier where the defensive assignment was blown and the guy shot over that looks like the guy missing his assignment was actually covering for someone else.

One of the more common problems we have is Roy teaches his guards to funnel the driver in to the teeth of our defense and yet when the teeth of our defense does not rotate over it looks like our guard blew it, it hangs that guard out on an island.

IN fairness, did notice something Joel Berry needs to work on a couple times last night. Big man catches the ball on the block and turns on our defender, Joel is concerned with the spot up on the wing and I understand that but when the big man puts the ball on the floor, I want Joel or whom ever the guard is to attack the big man's dribble looking for the strip, has to be timed right or it gives up the easy spot up trey that I know folks hate but you have to attack a big man when he puts the ball on the floor, noticed twice off top my head we didn't attack and I screamed at Joel for one of those.

You're absolutely right DSouth in that most fans get caught up "ball watching". If you watch the Carolina offense when it's humming and pay ZERO attention to the ball, you will some of the most beautiful basketball played! One of my favorites is on the secondary break when after the ball is reversed, the weak side gaurd (usually the weak side corner) comes through then you get the screen for the backdoor lob.



Or, the cross court screen where the pick man rolls to the rim on the backside for the lob and finish.



Or, this
 
Dave, I just read the post-Tulane-game stuff on the front page, and AJ just doubled down on his, shall we say, lack of basketball acumen:
"the truth is there aren't any great playmakers on the roster"
YGTBKM.
Does he think all those assists were random? Did he not watch JB set those alley-oop plays up thinking two steps ahead and moving the defense?... or maybe he's just unable to see it.
 
Thank you for this gary, I wanted to say something along the same theme since listening to the pod cast this morning. I am not sure I understand why folks have this need to down grade what Joel Berry does for this team. I mean, stats are wonderful but stats never have nor ever will tell the whole story. I see & hear folks saying Berry had no assists vs Texas but excuse me while I believe that we scored 80pts against a tuff Texas team IN THEIR HOUSE, right after exams by the way, I don't consider that a poor offensive showing. Assists are a look at how an offense runs.

IT seems like if the stat line for a game does not look great for AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER then that player had a bad game in the view of to many folk but the truth is the stats only tell a part of the whole story. Darn skippy, no assist was given to Joel even thou he hits Brice with a very nice pass but Brice took a couple dribbles. Sweetest pass on the planet is not an assist if the guy catching the ball does not finish. I re-watched that game a couple times, Joel did not have a bad game, his shots didn't drop but he took good shots. Joel was anything but a black hole for the ball, he worked it. Joel in that first half was by far our best back court defender, Felix & Smith were absolutely torching Marcus & Nate.

Look, I don't mind at all saying Joel berry has a bad game when he has one but as I have told SJung a hundred times, watch the game and stop being worried about a dang stat sheet. Joel Berry does a ton that never shows up on a stat sheet, sorry if that is not popular to say or if it conflicts with this site's managements opinions.
@DSouthr ... Welp, just like clockwork, Dave... (for whatever embarrassing reason), they let Bruce put something on the front page. Not only is he 180 degrees wrong about JB's defense, now he complains about his entry passes? Is he FKM? JB is easily the best entry passer on this team, and our own Bigs will (and actually have) tell you that in no uncertain terms.
 
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