AJ: Time To End ACC Divisions

[andrew jones]

TarHeelIllustrated - AJ: Time To End ACC Divisions

Florida State's visit to Chapel Hill last fall was its first since 2009, an indication ACC schduling needs to change.

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[tarheel0910]

TarHeelIllustrated - AJ: Time To End ACC Divisions

Florida State's visit to Chapel Hill last fall was its first since 2009, an indication ACC schduling needs to change.

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Sponsored by: @Andy MyPerfectFranchise.Net**

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Andy is a long time Rivals member, diehard college football fan, and franchise veteran - having owned multiple franchises and businesses. Using his expertise, he helps others find their American Dream through a very thorough and FREE consultation process. Call Andy, put your life and career in your own hands. 100% free, so what do you have to lose?!

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View attachment 434

Agree that it would be a good thing, but I think it's too little too late for the conference. Without some major moves happening before the GofR expiring, the ACC will lose a lot of teams. And I think UNC will be one of them.

 

[andrew jones]

Agree that it would be a good thing, but I think it's too little too late for the conference. Without some major moves happening before the GofR expiring, the ACC will lose a lot of teams. And I think UNC will be one of them.

Maybe so, but I don't think it's too late. The ACC was on its way a decade ago, and really just needs Miami and FSU to regain their former form, plus VT, UNC, GT and maybe Louisville being what they can. Syracuse finding its 1980s and 1990s form would help, too.

The time is now to make that push, or I'm afraid you are right.

 

[tarheel0910]

Maybe so, but I don't think it's too late. The ACC was on its way a decade ago, and really just needs Miami and FSU to regain their former form, plus VT, UNC, GT and maybe Louisville being what they can. Syracuse finding its 1980s and 1990s form would help, too.

The time is now to make that push, or I'm afraid you are right.

The schools you mentioned stepping up would definitely help. The biggest issue is money, though. I think it would take all of those teams stepping up, plus ND joining to get the type of money the the Big or SEC get. The chances of all that happing are pretty remote. Especially ND joining. I hope it happens though. I'd much rather win the current ACC than get beat down by OSU.

 

[andrew jones]

The schools you mentioned stepping up would definitely help. The biggest issue is money, though. I think it would take all of those teams stepping up, plus ND joining to get the type of money the the Big or SEC get. The chances of all that happing are pretty remote. Especially ND joining. I hope it happens though. I'd much rather win the current ACC than get beat down by OSU.

I agree. Adding Dame would be big. I said this last year and will say it here, but not publicly, but Wake is a total drain on the ACC. It takes from a pot it adds nothing to, and that is a big part of the problem.

Eventually, the arms races are going to force schools like Wake to make tough decisions, if they aren't made for them. That is part of the issue and it isn't going away as long as Wake is in the conference.

The same can somewhat be said about Duke in football, but the school has a brand and basketball at least helps to generate some revenue. Wake literally adds nothing.

 

[tarheel0910]

I agree. Adding Dame would be big. I said this last year and will say it here, but not publicly, but Wake is a total drain on the ACC. It takes from a pot it adds nothing to, and that is a big part of the problem.

Eventually, the arms races are going to force schools like Wake to make tough decisions, if they aren't made for them. That is part of the issue and it isn't going away as long as Wake is in the conference.

The same can somewhat be said about Duke in football, but the school has a brand and basketball at least helps to generate some revenue. Wake literally adds nothing.

Agree 100% with everything you said. I don't think anyone in charge is willing to kick a member out though. Especially one that's been around for so long.

 

[blazers]

I thought concussions would hallmark a huge change in college fball, but it seems like NIL and conf realignment are going to be the straw.

 

[WoadBlue]

I agree. Adding Dame would be big. I said this last year and will say it here, but not publicly, but Wake is a total drain on the ACC. It takes from a pot it adds nothing to, and that is a big part of the problem.

Eventually, the arms races are going to force schools like Wake to make tough decisions, if they aren't made for them. That is part of the issue and it isn't going away as long as Wake is in the conference.

The same can somewhat be said about Duke in football, but the school has a brand and basketball at least helps to generate some revenue. Wake literally adds nothing.

It has taken me many years to get to the point at which I would say the same thing: Wake, because it is the smallest school in a P5 and because it is the 4th school in a mid-sized state, is a big drain on the ACC. Trade Wake for Cincy, which is a very large state school and definite #2 football program in a larger state which also produces more talent than NC, and we would be worth more.

Trade BC, which is in a region that cares almost nada for CFB and produces almost no P5 talent, for WVU, and we also would gain value. WVU would average in the top 4 or 5 of the ACC in attendance every year, and WVU fans travel very well everywhere.

 

[WoadBlue]

The schools you mentioned stepping up would definitely help. The biggest issue is money, though. I think it would take all of those teams stepping up, plus ND joining to get the type of money the the Big or SEC get. The chances of all that happing are pretty remote. Especially ND joining. I hope it happens though. I'd much rather win the current ACC than get beat down by OSU.

The one problem I have with what you say is your assumption that UNC football could never compete in the BT. Starting with 1970, the ACC almost twice as many National Championships in football as the BT - and the BT in that span always has had about twice as much money.

Perhaps if UNC had BT money, UNC football would cause a lot of heartache to a bunch of overrated midwestern teams.

But even if so, I want no part of it. I also strongly prefer not to be forced into the SEC. If the ACC must boot a pair of small private schools to remain solvent, then the ACC needs to do that.

If you have gangrene in your left foot, and you do not cut it off, the gangrene spreads above your ankle. Either you cut off the gangrene, or slowly the gangrene kills you. If we can get a better deal by dumping Wake and BC, then to save the league as whole we must cut.

 

[TVJ]

I don't know to what extent Wake and BC can/will utilize NIL, but I believe it (and to a somewhat lesser extent the transfer portal) is changing college athletics in a big way. Is paying college athletes the answer to getting better teams? I don't know - there are some pretty weak teams in the NFL also.

 

[andrew jones]

I don't know to what extent Wake and BC can/will utilize NIL, but I believe it (and to a somewhat lesser extent the transfer portal) is changing college athletics in a big way. Is paying college athletes the answer to getting better teams? I don't know - there are some pretty weak teams in the NFL also.

I have a neighbor who is from Boston, and when he found out what I do, I asked if he ever goes to BC games, and his reply was, "I watch real sports." So, no, he doesn't. It's just one person, but I often get a gauge on the feel a town has for a team when I travel. Most Uber drivers are sports fans or are at least aware of games that are coming that day, the next day, etc.

In most ACC towns, the Uber drivers are on top of things and glad to talk about their local ACC team. But in Boston, they don't know squat. I actually had a guy say to me about four years ago, "Isn't that where Flutie went?"

Yeah, 33 years ago, dude (this was about four years ago).

That said, when BC has been good in the past, it has done a decent job drawing and generating interest. But it isn't a needle mover.

 

[WoadBlue]

I have a neighbor who is from Boston, and when he found out what I do, I asked if he ever goes to BC games, and his reply was, "I watch real sports." So, no, he doesn't. It's just one person, but I often get a gauge on the feel a town has for a team when I travel. Most Uber drivers are sports fans or are at least aware of games that are coming that day, the next day, etc.

In most ACC towns, the Uber drivers are on top of things and glad to talk about their local ACC team. But in Boston, they don't know squat. I actually had a guy say to me about four years ago, "Isn't that where Flutie went?"

Yeah, 33 years ago, dude (this was about four years ago).

That said, when BC has been good in the past, it has done a decent job drawing and generating interest. But it isn't a needle mover.

That's it. In Boston, the sports teams that matter are: Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics, Bruins. Harvard matters to the Brahmins and to nobody else. BC does not even matter to most Catholics in Boston. Why not? BC is a Jesuit school. Very few Catholics without ties to the Jesuit order ever support any Jesuit school in anything. Many such Catholics will tend to be anti-Jesuit school in everything, including sports.

 

[WoadBlue]

I don't know to what extent Wake and BC can/will utilize NIL, but I believe it (and to a somewhat lesser extent the transfer portal) is changing college athletics in a big way. Is paying college athletes the answer to getting better teams? I don't know - there are some pretty weak teams in the NFL also.

Even if Wake mastered NIL and with the excellent Clawson as HC won the ACC 3 consecutive years, Wake would be a dud in national TV ratings.

This money gap is not about failure to have teams win football National Championships. Since 1970, the ACC has almost twice as many as the BT, which makes more than twice the ACC in TV money.

TV money is based on consistent national TV drawing power, and leagues filled with small private schools lack that. Leagues defined by sizable state flagship and land grant schools have it in spades.

 

[TVJ]

Even if the ACC waived penalties and fees, would Wake and/or BC voluntarily withdraw? If not, how do you go about removing a school from the conference?

 

[andrew jones]

Even if the ACC waived penalties and fees, would Wake and/or BC voluntarily withdraw? If not, how do you go about removing a school from the conference?

No. The only way a school like Wake would ever do that is if it got so expensive and the arms race so out of control it could no longer compete.

BC is in for the long haul and isn't the drain Wake is, though it doesn't enhance the pot either. If the Eagles get good and re-establish culture, they will draw enough in both sports and get more eye balls.

To be clear, I'm not trying to push out Wake, not at all. I've covered the whole league, with an emphasis on the in-state schools for most of my career, and always enjoyed going over to Wake for both sports. It has always been the most open to the media, Grobe and Prosser were fantastic to deal with, and those teams were fun to cover. Wake hoops had a huge buzz when Prosser was there and even the Gaudio days.

It's a fantastic school, but it isn't built to sustain itself in modern-day big-time college sports. If the ACC was starting up today, Wake wouldn't be under consideration because it wouldn't add to or sustain the pot. It's unfortunate, but is true.

 

[WoadBlue]

No. The only way a school like Wake would ever do that is if it got so expensive and the arms race so out of control it could no longer compete.

BC is in for the long haul and isn't the drain Wake is, though it doesn't enhance the pot either. If the Eagles get good and re-establish culture, they will draw enough in both sports and get more eye balls.

To be clear, I'm not trying to push out Wake, not at all. I've covered the whole league, with an emphasis on the in-state schools for most of my career, and always enjoyed going over to Wake for both sports. It has always been the most open to the media, Grobe and Prosser were fantastic to deal with, and those teams were fun to cover. Wake hoops had a huge buzz when Prosser was there and even the Gaudio days.

It's a fantastic school, but it isn't built to sustain itself in modern-day big-time college sports. If the ACC was starting up today, Wake wouldn't be under consideration because it wouldn't add to or sustain the pot. It's unfortunate, but is true.

Bones McKinney was one of the most colorful coaches in ACC history - any sport. And under Carl Tacy, Wake almost always was a war. Tacy had a chip on his shoulder as big as Grandfather Mountain, and his Deacs acted on it. I always hoped that Tacy could get Wake back to the Final Four - he lost in the Elite 8 twice.

Wake got into the ACC because UNC and Dook (because of 2 recent Rose Bowl teams, Dook then was not seen as a 'small school') demanded it. The ACC was formed out of the SoCon to get away from 'small schools' voting and acting against the best interests of the 'big' schools. Even then, Wake had more in common with schools like Richmond and Furman than with UNC, NCSU, Maryland, SoCar, Clemson.

I do think that if the ACC had taken VPI rather than Wake, it probably would have developed into more of a football conference. Replacing a very small private school with a Land Grant school is certain to promote football more.

 

[andrew jones]

Bones McKinney was one of the most colorful coaches in ACC history - any sport. And under Carl Tacy, Wake almost always was a war. Tacy had a chip on his shoulder as big as Grandfather Mountain, and his Deacs acted on it. I always hoped that Tacy could get Wake back to the Final Four - he lost in the Elite 8 twice.

Wake got into the ACC because UNC and Dook (because of 2 recent Rose Bowl teams, Dook then was not seen as a 'small school') demanded it. The ACC was formed out of the SoCon to get away from 'small schools' voting and acting against the best interests of the 'big' schools. Even then, Wake had more in common with schools like Richmond and Furman than with UNC, NCSU, Maryland, SoCar, Clemson.

I do think that if the ACC had taken VPI rather than Wake, it probably would have developed into more of a football conference. Replacing a very small private school with a Land Grant school is certain to promote football more.

No doubt. And, VPI should have been in the league from its inception.

 

[WoadBlue]

No doubt. And, VPI should have been in the league from its inception.

Yes - even if UVA then had refused. UVA was no longer in the SoCon in 1952. And it was not playing a number of ACC schools in most years. The rivalry with UNC was kept, of course, and also Dook and Maryland. UVA had to be coaxed into joining the ACC. The reality is that UVA contributed almost nothing in basketball until Terry Holland had Wally Walker and Macr Iavaroni on campus, which led to landing Jeff Lamp, which led to landing Ralph Sampson. UNC football contributed nothing to the ACC until George Welsh was hired as HC. The ACC did not need UVA at all until the late 1970s, assuming it had VPI instead.

WVU was the other SoCon team that might have been the 8th if UVA had remained independent, but it had no real chance because VPI would not have refused.

Even with Wake in the ACC, if they had gone to 9 with VPI, Hokies football would have grown steadily while UVA football sucked for 25 years. That would have helped the ACC keep much of the top VA talent that even in the 1950s was going to PSU, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. Back then, ND would recruit Catholic schools in Baltimore and DC rather heavily and land their fair share.

Al the major resentments that surfaced in the ACC from the very beginning have been about the Big 4: 4 schools in NC. Every time anybody else had a gripe, it would be blown way out of proportion by claiming the 4 NC schools acted to have total control over the ACC. Tobacco Road Mafia became the excuse to bash everything the ACC did that not directly aid at least a couple of non-NC ACC schools. If Wake had been left in the SoCon, all that drama could have been eliminated because the ACC never would have been 50% NC schools.

 

[WoadBlue]

The MWC and the Pac 12 are scrapping division play.

The ACC should have been the first to make that announcement. Hopefully it will be third.