Are We Winning the Portal?

[DSouthr]

Come on DS you could at least go to TO/game, where he was tied for 35th most while being alone at 15th in Assists/game despite the awful offensive plan. The size issue was all about RJ. Again, right now folks are imagining the best version of new guys and all the improvement they might make, despite very little evidence of that during HD's tenure. That's fine but it need not come with talking down players who left. EC was not weak, was not too small, was not awful on defense and his A/TO wasn't in some unacceptable range. His limits as a shooter and especially a confident one along with being foul prone at times-some earned some not- are real things. He also did force some things on offense but he produced an enormous percentage of the easy shots that the team got with his playmaking.

The small size was really about both RJ and Cadeau RP, both being so small just really opened us up on the defensive end. You have RJ at 5'10-11" going against 6'7" opponents on both ends? You can get away with 1 being small but that small guy has to give you a LOT on the offensive end to make up for what he costs you on the other end, amplified when you do not have a rim protecting front court. I amnot saying our guards didn't try, they tried but size matters.

RP, I am not talking down players, I am sharing facts that needed to be addressed else we repeat last season or worse. You tell me how 1 guy having 113 TOs last season is was or will be in any way acceptable, I will listen?

 

[DSouthr]

1,000,000% disagree.

As of now we are objectively downgraded at PG on both ends (and any rationalizations to the contrary are strained, to say the least), offensively at the 2, and on both ends at the 3.

Drake ain't likely to come back, and the new Powell ain't Drake... so Wilson at the 3? Good luck with that.

Look, I would love to see Drake back (and I posted previously it might save Hubert's job), and personally, I think Dixon has a chance to be a real option at PG (which could change the calculus a tad) --- but RIGHT NOW I see a bunch o' tall guys in an overcrowded 4-5 rotation, and nothing to write home about anywhere else.

And in my opinion that would make you 1,000,000% WRONG. But hey, you do you...

 

[dtodd4475]

On paper I think the dee should be much more active, with the added length. Shooting will be the X factor. A vetern backup point would be nice in my vision as well.

 

[gary-7]

RP, I am not talking down players, I am sharing facts that needed to be addressed else we repeat last season or worse. You tell me how 1 guy having 113 TOs last season is was or will be in any way acceptable, I will listen?

OK.
113 was the FEWEST Eddie Cota had here in 4 seasons.
Listening yet?

Or, let's try this:
Ray Felton had 130 TOs in 2002-03 and 129 TOs in 2004-05 (and we won a damn Natty).

Come on, D. PLEASE just let that junk go once and for all. Dynamic creator PGs are gonna turn the ball over some.

 

[dtodd4475]

OK.
113 was the FEWEST Eddie Cota had here in 4 seasons.
Listening yet?

Or, let's try this:
Ray Felton had 130 TOs in 2002-03 and 129 TOs in 2004-05 (and we won a damn Natty).

Come on, D. PLEASE just let that junk go once and for all. Dynamic creator PGs are gonna turn the ball over some.

Absolutely, wondering their minutes played for those numbers for sure, and the assists, points, as related to minutes. It is indeed the whole of production to go along with the TO's that makes for winning from the court general and not just a individual TO stat.

 

[NathanFielder]

As of today, I have no idea who UNC’s #1 scoring option will be. And Hubert plays his fair share of isolation ball or hunts matchups to get isolations. So who’s going to be that guy? That’s a pretty large concern of mine.

The backcourt lacks shooting right now unless the freshman are rotational players and plus shooters right now. So another concern. Even if Drake Powell comes back, this looks like a limited team to me. And it would be limited if it were Cadeau/Seth/D Powell/etc.

Saying all that, I think the upgrade in the front court will make a big difference on both ends.

Hopefully this group fits better together and having positional size will matter in the end. Unless they bring in a 3 level stud scorer at the SF, it will be up to Hubert to design creative offense around his skill. He has skill with Wilson and Veesaar. Will he use it? Or will he camp dudes in the corner all game?

The hope right now is the upgraded bigs will be able to get more offensive rebounds and be harder to score on at the rim and that can increase their margin for error. But I wish this team had more gifted scoring on the roster.

 

[NathanFielder]

Absolutely, wondering their minutes played for those numbers for sure, and the assists, points, as related to minutes. It is indeed the whole of production to go along with the TO's that makes for winning from the court general and not just a individual TO stat.

Cadeau and Felton were both high TO players. Ironically I thought if you were in the Cadeau is awesome camp, Felton was the trajectory you were looking for.

Really up and down freshman year. Improved sophomore year. Elite junior year. Felton became a 3PT sniper in his JR season. Could Cadeau do that at UNC? Idk but Felton did.

I’ll maintain that Cadeau needed the roster structured in a specific way. With Wilson and Veesaar, the lane is going to have more traffic. There’s 0 way that a Cadeau/Trimble backcourt can work unless you had shooting at at least 2 of the other spots.

I would’ve preferred to keep Cadeau and hunt for bigger shooters at the 2-3 with Wilson and Veesaar.

I know everyone loves the pure pass first PG. But if your team doesn’t have Vince Carter, Shammond Williams, and Antwaan Jamison like Ed Cota had. Or Barnes, Henson, Zeller, Bullock like Marshall did…. It might not work out.

 

[dtodd4475]

Cadeau and Felton were both high TO players. Ironically I thought if you were in the Cadeau is awesome camp, Felton was the trajectory you were looking for.

Really up and down freshman year. Improved sophomore year. Elite junior year. Felton became a 3PT sniper in his JR season. Could Cadeau do that at UNC? Idk but Felton did.

I’ll maintain that Cadeau needed the roster structured in a specific way. With Wilson and Veesaar, the lane is going to have more traffic. There’s 0 way that a Cadeau/Trimble backcourt can work unless you had shooting at at least 2 of the other spots.

I would’ve preferred to keep Cadeau and hunt for bigger shooters at the 2-3 with Wilson and Veesaar.

I know everyone loves the pure pass first PG. But if your team doesn’t have Vince Carter, Shammond Williams, and Antwaan Jamison like Ed Cota had. Or Barnes, Henson, Zeller, Bullock like Marshall did…. It might not work out.

Yeah, Elliot's scoring percentages were abysmal, and he couldn't stay on the court with fouls. I'm rooting for him, but he remained the consistent "we dare you to shoot/score guy" throughout the two years here. He can't be that guy for me, and resonate as next level. A "butter" comp maybe, but Marshall was very limited, needing those type studs around him for sure, he was successfully targeted as a weak scoring link limiting other options around him too, but had scorers who were still plus scorers regardless, maybe Elliot can earn some respect as a threat to score with a change of scenery?

Maybe a King Rice comp is closest? Without the dee.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

I’ve said we’re starting to be built like an SEC team with the length and all which is fine

We were beat by an Ole Miss team with no real true number 1 threat as they had 6 guys averaging double figures

If that is what it’s looking like then we will be competitive

 

[gary-7]

Absolutely, wondering their minutes played for those numbers for sure, and the assists, points, as related to minutes. It is indeed the whole of production to go along with the TO's that makes for winning from the court general and not just a individual TO stat.

Trying my level best not to face-palm, what I posted was entirely in context. In fact, Ray's TOs were in fewer games and Eddie averaged over 5 per 40 minutes per game as a Frosh (excuse the original typo omission)

Obviously, each season for these respective players had their unique respective nuances, but the point is that Eliot fits right in.

Again, to this board, I would gently ask that you collectively ditch this nonsensical narrative that somehow Eliot was some sort of outlier TO machine. Frankly, that is just revisionist nonsense.

Because here's the thing; Would anyone here turn away a 19 yr old Ray or Ed right about now? All I can say is, if so, well, ypu need to watch another sport.

In other words, stop trying to mitigate what should be obvious.

 

[RoseHeel]

I'd give us a B/B-

 

[Lewis&Miller]

Trying my level best not to face-palm, what I posted was entirely in context. In fact, Ray's TOs were in fewer games and Eddie averaged over 5 per game as a Frosh.

Obviously, each season for these respective players had their unique respective nuances, but the point is that Eliot fits right in.

Again, to this board, I would gently ask that you collectively ditch this nonsensical narrative that somehow Eliot was some sort of outlier TO machine. Frankly, that is just revisionist nonsense.

Because here's the thing; Would anyone here turn away a 19 yr old Ray or Ed right about now? All I can say is, if so, well, ypu need to watch another sport.

In other words, stop trying to mitigate what should be obvious.

Cadeau was and is a great talent and should have been the latest great point guard for Carolina. He is just a scapegoat for how poor Hubert Davis implements his offensive system. Hubert cant figure out how to consistently operate with a single lead guard system or a two guard one. Hes tried both. So very curious to see how Cadeau and Hubert perform this year.

 

[dtodd4475]

Trying my level best not to face-palm, what I posted was entirely in context. In fact, Ray's TOs were in fewer games and Eddie averaged over 5 per game as a Frosh.

Obviously, each season for these respective players had their unique respective nuances, but the point is that Eliot fits right in.

Again, to this board, I would gently ask that you collectively ditch this nonsensical narrative that somehow Eliot was some sort of outlier TO machine. Frankly, that is just revisionist nonsense.

Because here's the thing; Would anyone here turn away a 19 yr old Ray or Ed right about now? All I can say is, if so, well, ypu need to watch another sport.

In other words, stop trying to mitigate what should be obvious.

I'm not trying to say Elliot was a TO magnet. I just did not see the all around game to this point with his assists. He shot abysmally, even mid 60's free throws, often foul prone, and seemed to lose his composure. He can right those with maturity and become more rounded.

He reminded me more of a King Rice than a Ray Felton in performance to this point.

 

[Kool1234567]

I'd give us a B/B-

Fair…I say a B+ for me….

Got better at the 5
Got Better at the 4
The 3 is still up in the air depending on Drake…

The backcourt got bigger…RJ shooting will be missed but he took a step back this year…Also better shooting at the 1 spot no doubt…Hopefully cut down on the silly turnovers and fouls as well at the 1…

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

In fact we are so loaded at the 3 right now if Drake were to come back he could well be slotted in at the 2

I'd like to see that. I think he do great.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Trying my level best not to face-palm, what I posted was entirely in context. In fact, Ray's TOs were in fewer games and Eddie averaged over 5 per game as a Frosh.

Obviously, each season for these respective players had their unique respective nuances, but the point is that Eliot fits right in.

Again, to this board, I would gently ask that you collectively ditch this nonsensical narrative that somehow Eliot was some sort of outlier TO machine. Frankly, that is just revisionist nonsense.

Because here's the thing; Would anyone here turn away a 19 yr old Ray or Ed right about now? All I can say is, if so, well, ypu need to watch another sport.

In other words, stop trying to mitigate what should be obvious.

Heck, I wanted EC back. But I absolutely understand (and agree with) his departure. I expect him to be a star in his junior season. I think he could have been that star here - but I think he has a better shot at being a star for Michigan.

There are lots of different kinds of TOs. Sure, EC owns some bad passes and bad decisions. But it's also true that a lot of those TOs don't happen if he's playing with more talent, more size, or a better-coached team.

 

[tarheels0015]

Treysen eaglestaff decommits from S Carolina.. sign him up HD

 

[DSouthr]

I am not looking to damn Cadeau, hew is a very talented kid notable is his ability to pass. At times he would dazzle us with amazing play but to often it was quickly followed by bad decisions and a clear lack of maturity. In his 2 seasons at UNC as our starting PG he led us to the round of 32 1 time. Consider him any way you want, it is your opinion but for me he was anyone but a generational PG, he had the talent to be that and may be for some other team one day. But for his time as our PG the kid was a weak jump shooter, a minus defender, whose best attribute resulted in a 2: 1 A:T ratio and serious maturity issues. WE have replaced him with a kid that showed improvement in his game, that got better as he played and I saw the soph Cadeau as about the same player he was as a freshman. I look at this in a similar way I did our losing Caleb Love, lost a very talented player and it was the best thing that could happen for both sides.

 

[DSouthr]

Treysen eaglestaff decommits from S Carolina.. sign him up HD

He could be interesting.

 

[Mrs.Jeans15]

Heck, I wanted EC back. But I absolutely understand (and agree with) his departure. I expect him to be a star in his junior season. I think he could have been that star here - but I think he has a better shot at being a star for Michigan.

There are lots of different kinds of TOs. Sure, EC owns some bad passes and bad decisions. But it's also true that a lot of those TOs don't happen if he's playing with more talent, more size, or a better-coached team.

Lol..what

 

[gary-7]

Cadeau was and is a great talent and should have been the latest great point guard for Carolina. He is just a scapegoat for how poor Hubert Davis implements his offensive system. Hubert cant figure out how to consistently operate with a single lead guard system or a two guard one. Hes tried both. So very curious to see how Cadeau and Hubert perform this year.

At this point I'll just say I hope they both do well, and leave it at that.

 

[DSouthr]

Lol..what

I think what WW is saying is that a fresh start can allow a player to reset and get out of his head to re-focus on the main thing. The kid just strikes me as living in this protective bubble of close supporters that can not sing of his greatness loud or long enough. To many excuses for poor play and to much hype on good play with very little responsibility for his own actions. They think they are helping him, they are not, they are making excuses for him, it seems it is always someone else's fault, never his. That robs him of what may be the greatest development tool, the ability to see your own failure and the realization that YOU have to do something about it. If you don't realize there is something broke in your game or your approach then you can not see anything that needs improvement.

 

[gary-7]

I am not looking to damn Cadeau, hew is a very talented kid notable is his ability to pass. At times he would dazzle us with amazing play but to often it was quickly followed by bad decisions and a clear lack of maturity. In his 2 seasons at UNC as our starting PG he led us to the round of 32 1 time. Consider him any way you want, it is your opinion but for me he was anyone but a generational PG, he had the talent to be that and may be for some other team one day. But for his time as our PG the kid was a weak jump shooter, a minus defender, whose best attribute resulted in a 2: 1 A:T ratio and serious maturity issues. WE have replaced him with a kid that showed improvement in his game, that got better as he played and I saw the soph Cadeau as about the same player he was as a freshman. I look at this in a similar way I did our losing Caleb Love, lost a very talented player and it was the best thing that could happen for both sides.

If you're not looking to damn him then let's be accurate. EC became a legitimate plus defender this season, and that is simply not arguable.

 

[DSouthr]

Cadeau was and is a great talent and should have been the latest great point guard for Carolina. He is just a scapegoat for how poor Hubert Davis implements his offensive system. Hubert cant figure out how to consistently operate with a single lead guard system or a two guard one. Hes tried both. So very curious to see how Cadeau and Hubert perform this year.

To late for sure but HUbert did go from that 4 guard stuff to more of having as much size as he could at all positions. I wish that happened early season and we stuck with it rather than late. Was that Hubert placing a desperate band-aid on the situation or was it the leading edge of a change in his mindset? I suspect some of both but we will just have to wait and see. His decisions in this portal do seem to indicate that Hubert has changed, how much of that was his idea or how much came from the demand of others, hard call.

 

[Kool1234567]

I am not looking to damn Cadeau, hew is a very talented kid notable is his ability to pass. At times he would dazzle us with amazing play but to often it was quickly followed by bad decisions and a clear lack of maturity. In his 2 seasons at UNC as our starting PG he led us to the round of 32 1 time. Consider him any way you want, it is your opinion but for me he was anyone but a generational PG, he had the talent to be that and may be for some other team one day. But for his time as our PG the kid was a weak jump shooter, a minus defender, whose best attribute resulted in a 2: 1 A:T ratio and serious maturity issues. WE have replaced him with a kid that showed improvement in his game, that got better as he played and I saw the soph Cadeau as about the same player he was as a freshman. I look at this in a similar way I did our losing Caleb Love, lost a very talented player and it was the best thing that could happen for both sides.

You done messed up now…Moe and his stooges will come for you…

 

[KeeLo]

I wish EC was still a Tar Heel. I didn't see enough of EC's defense to know how good of a defender he was, but the UCLA win (defensive stand) and ND win (4pt play and defensive stand) was highly dependent upon EC. If the Heels lose one of those games, no chance at the tourney.

 

[NathanFielder]

Don't get me wrong here. I think Cadeau is a talented PG who's developing at a fine pace. If you gave me the choice between him vs Seth, I'm picking Cadeau. But I don't think I can remember so much talk about a player whose production was merely ok during his two seasons and whose teams were not overly memorable (one truly forgettable).

Has the makings of an annoying season with plenty of "playing the results" criticism. I can see it now. One game UNC plays poorly offensively and loses... Well of course they would've won that game if Cadeau was PG1!!! (Forgetting that UNC lost their fair share of games with Cadeau as the PG1). Or you'll get a game where UNC wins thoroughly against a quality opponent where Evans' shooting makes a huge difference and you'll hear "It's so nice to have a PG who isn't afraid to shoot the damn ball!" (Forgetting that Cadeau, while an unwilling shooter, shot the ball at a significantly better percentage in the second half of the past season).

 

[DSouthr]

You done messed up now…Moe and his stooges will come for you…

Kool, I think you know me better than that, I share my opinions and I really don't much care if others agree or not, I have no requirement that anyone agree. No one gets to dictate to me what I am supposed to think, thou they do try. I have learned, took a while LOL, but I have learned that the most effective way to end a war of words is by not giving it the oxygen it craves. I will continue to say what I say and others will simply have to deal with it or not, I don't really care. LOL

 

[DSouthr]

Don't get me wrong here. I think Cadeau is a talented PG who's developing at a fine pace. If you gave me the choice between him vs Seth, I'm picking Cadeau. But I don't think I can remember so much talk about a player whose production was merely ok during his two seasons and whose teams were not overly memorable (one truly forgettable).

Has the makings of an annoying season with plenty of "playing the results" criticism. I can see it now. One game UNC plays poorly offensively and loses... Well of course they would've won that game if Cadeau was PG1!!! (Forgetting that UNC lost their fair share of games with Cadeau as the PG1). Or you'll get a game where UNC wins thoroughly against a quality opponent where Evans' shooting makes a huge difference and you'll hear "It's so nice to have a PG who isn't afraid to shoot the damn ball!" (Forgetting that Cadeau, while an unwilling shooter, shot the ball at a significantly better percentage in the second half of the past season).

I agree 100% if your talking about Seth as a PG, which is how I took it.

 

[gary-7]

I wish EC was still a Tar Heel. I didn't see enough of EC's defense to know how good of a defender he was, but the UCLA win (defensive stand) and ND win (4pt play and defensive stand) was highly dependent upon EC. If the Heels lose one of those games, no chance at the tourney.

To say the least.

And FYI related to this thread, according to my booster buddy there, Jackson visited UGA yesterday.

 

[NathanFielder]

I agree 100% if your talking about Seth as a PG, which is how I took it.

I would never have Seth anywhere near the PG position, especially if my job depended on it.

For me, I would've preferred to have Cadeau and bring a portal shooter at the 2 (probably has to be a bigger 2) as opposed to what happened. But it's not do or die for me. I understand the thinking behind Evans/Trimble. And I feel pretty comfortable with added shooting.

Also, I think upgrading the bigs was more important but that's because I don't view Cadeau as an emerging superstar. Significantly upgrading the bigs should make a big difference.

 

[Mrs.Jeans15]

I think what WW is saying is that a fresh start can allow a player to reset and get out of his head to re-focus on the main thing. The kid just strikes me as living in this protective bubble of close supporters that can not sing of his greatness loud or long enough. To many excuses for poor play and to much hype on good play with very little responsibility for his own actions. They think they are helping him, they are not, they are making excuses for him, it seems it is always someone else's fault, never his. That robs him of what may be the greatest development tool, the ability to see your own failure and the realization that YOU have to do something about it. If you don't realize there is something broke in your game or your approach then you can not see anything that needs improvement.

Oh damn I thought I deleted that.
.Cause I understood after rereading.

Sorry WW

 

[NathanFielder]

I wish EC was still a Tar Heel. I didn't see enough of EC's defense to know how good of a defender he was, but the UCLA win (defensive stand) and ND win (4pt play and defensive stand) was highly dependent upon EC. If the Heels lose one of those games, no chance at the tourney.

I mean, if we're going to pick and choose Cadeau's clutch (and lucky counting Notre Dame's) moments, I can pretty easily play the other side because he had his share of bad moments late, too.

- Kansas: misses the game tying 3 at the end of regulation. It's harsh to place too much criticism, but mentioning it here because I think the Notre Dame 3+1 was a little more luck than Cadeau being a clutch shooter.
- Michigan State: Cadeau misses the wide open uncontested lefty layup, which would've given UNC a 1 pt lead with under 20 seconds left
- Florida: Cadeau had a turnover in the final 90 seconds of a tied game. He missed the front end of a 1-and-1 down 4 under 30 seconds. If I recall, it was Cadeau's miscues plus the inability to get a defensive rebound that cost UNC the game.
- Stanford: Cadeau missed the first of 2 FTs with 2:30 left. Every point mattered in that game.
- Pitt: I thought the decision to make the bounce pass to Lubin was the wrong decision. The pass was on the money and Lubin dropped it but I thought it was the wrong decision. Cadeau also gets a late 3 blocked when he tried to shoot over a player 8 inches taller than him. Again, might be harsh especially with the time and score at that point.

He, like the rest of the team, had a very up and down season.

 

[DSouthr]

I would never have Seth anywhere near the PG position, especially if my job depended on it.

For me, I would've preferred to have Cadeau and bring a portal shooter at the 2 (probably has to be a bigger 2) as opposed to what happened. But it's not do or die for me. I understand the thinking behind Evans/Trimble. And I feel pretty comfortable with added shooting.

Also, I think upgrading the bigs was more important but that's because I don't view Cadeau as an emerging superstar. Significantly upgrading the bigs should make a big difference.

LOL, while I clearly admit to having a bit of a blind spot for Seth, I was not comfortable with Seth as our starting PG. I mean you simply do not play 3 seasons at other positions only to become a PG your senior year. I am OK with Seth as a back up PG but I do not discount Dixon as a PG either and he may be more capable to be the back up for Evans, we will have to see.

The cool thing about Evans is that he will be treated as a shooting threat that you can not double off of or give dare to shoot looks. I LOVE that Evans is coming in with less hype, means less pressure on him to live up to the hype.

With out doubt the single largest problem we had last season we had by the first exhibition game, that glaring lack of height, that single issue effected EVERY other aspect of our game, it made everything harder even when we used as much positional height as we had, we were still a very small team. I believe upgrading the individual positional length at every floor position upgrades us from last season and all 4 of the incoming portal guys are starter level, I suspect 3 of them start and the other a key reserve in the regular rotation.

If Lubin does not enter the portal, I can see us adding a shooting guard if the right guys comes up and is willing to maybe take a spot off the bench, going to be hard to find a guy like that because those guys want to get paid well and start. I would be fine if we went in to the season with the players we already have.

 

[KeeLo]

I mean, if we're going to pick and choose Cadeau's clutch (and lucky counting Notre Dame's) moments, I can pretty easily play the other side because he had his share of bad moments late, too.

- Kansas: misses the game tying 3 at the end of regulation. It's harsh to place too much criticism, but mentioning it here because I think the Notre Dame 3+1 was a little more luck than Cadeau being a clutch shooter.
- Michigan State: Cadeau misses the wide open uncontested lefty layup, which would've given UNC a 1 pt lead with under 20 seconds left
- Florida: Cadeau had a turnover in the final 90 seconds of a tied game. He missed the front end of a 1-and-1 down 4 under 30 seconds. If I recall, it was Cadeau's miscues plus the inability to get a defensive rebound that cost UNC the game.
- Stanford: Cadeau missed the first of 2 FTs with 2:30 left. Every point mattered in that game.
- Pitt: I thought the decision to make the bounce pass to Lubin was the wrong decision. The pass was on the money and Lubin dropped it but I thought it was the wrong decision. Cadeau also gets a late 3 blocked when he tried to shoot over a player 8 inches taller than him. Again, might be harsh especially with the time and score at that point.

He, like the rest of the team, had a very up and down season.

Fair. I shouldn't have insinuated or given the perception that he was the only reason why the heels made the tournament.

 

[NathanFielder]

Fair. I shouldn't have insinuated or given the perception that he was the only reason why the heels made the tournament.

All good. Hopefully I didn't come across too much like a dbag, haha. I've been told I have that way sometimes.