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Britt or Berry and why--let the debate start

IDUNK4HEELS

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There are many who have jumped on the Berry bandwagon including myself but the question must be brought up during the off season...which one starts?

We all are in agreement that most of the time Coach Williams prefers to go with expierence over talent and that is why this for me will be a very tough call...

Britt was night and day better than his freshman season when he was thrown into the fire way too early and his outside shooting and crunch free throw shooting helped the team a lot.

Berry on the other hand was hurt and missed a bunch of games but he adds a different dimension in that he does not mind going to the hole and taking the jumper when open.

Neither guy will win honors for their defense because both are average at best covering opponents.

If it was my choice I like Berry to run the show which would allow Britt to play the one or the two off the bench but the final call is not mine. How do you see it and why.
 
There are many who have jumped on the Berry bandwagon including myself but the question must be brought up during the off season...which one starts?

We all are in agreement that most of the time Coach Williams prefers to go with expierence over talent and that is why this for me will be a very tough call...

Britt was night and day better than his freshman season when he was thrown into the fire way too early and his outside shooting and crunch free throw shooting helped the team a lot.

Berry on the other hand was hurt and missed a bunch of games but he adds a different dimension in that he does not mind going to the hole and taking the jumper when open.

Neither guy will win honors for their defense because both are average at best covering opponents.

If it was my choice I like Berry to run the show which would allow Britt to play the one or the two off the bench but the final call is not mine. How do you see it and why.


Berry because the offense flows better when Berry/Paige are on the court together. You're right Mike, it didn't take long at all.
 
Ahhhh . . . I remember last summer's discussion on this subject and how a few posters proclaimed how Mr. Joel Berry would be starting from day 1.

I'd say that next year's starting backcourt depends on which one of the trio of Berry, Britt or Pinson improves themselves enough to warrant that honor. All 3 have a chance of being the starter alongside Marcus Paige IMHO . .
 
Ahhhh . . . I remember last summer's discussion on this subject and how a few posters proclaimed how Mr. Joel Berry would be starting from day 1.

I'd say that next year's starting backcourt depends on which one of the trio of Berry, Britt or Pinson improves themselves enough to warrant that honor. All 3 have a chance of being the starter alongside Marcus Paige IMHO . .

Yep and I was RIGHT ALL SUMMER TO !

This just can not be more clear than it is today, well of course Marcus & Berry wil be the starters. IN truth, I seriously reccomend that Nate spend some hard work this summer on his ball handles and his defense (including a ton of time in the weight room). If he doesn't he could lose some of those back up at the point & 2g positions time slip, as he saw it slip big time to end this past season.

I really think it is going to take a while for Pinson to regain his stamina and just don't see a lot of time this summer that he will be able to work on skill developement and that he REALLY does need. You looking at late August at best before he is able to do much at all on that foot, really puts him behind. He can work on upper body strength, needs that but I really hoped this summer he would be able to work on that UGLY jump shooting stroke, it is broke & that ain't no joke. I would suggest that Pinson was not even up to the JP level as a jump shooter but the kid has really good hand eye cordination, essential to develope a reliable jump shot and I think in time much better than JP. I see Pinson getting off to a some what slow start but improving almost game to game, I love this kid's potential but more than that I love his energy. Piinson is NBA lotto if he can develope a dependable jump shot, put that in your book and label it stuff David told ya!

Not gonna lie folks, you already know, I am just not that high on Nate. It is one thing to be a little fella like he is but man, ya got to play with more passion, you have to out work your competition because your size is a problem. I did not see Nate out work pretty much any one. I want the best for the kid but I didn't see the developement from him last season I need to see in sophs, other than his jump shooting it was pretty much the same as his freshman season, that just ain't good. I watched Mugsy Bouges dominate the game at what 5'5", I saw last season as opportunity lost by nate, he had the shot, he let Joel come in and take his spot, this off season will show me just how much nate really wants it but now that Joel has a taste, I do not see him letting go.
 
As it stands now, I believe Berry gets the nod. We are thin at wing whinch I believe defaults Pinson to the primary wing backup.
 
Yep and I was RIGHT ALL SUMMER TO !

This just can not be more clear than it is today, well of course Marcus & Berry wil be the starters. IN truth, I seriously reccomend that Nate spend some hard work this summer on his ball handles and his defense (including a ton of time in the weight room). If he doesn't he could lose some of those back up at the point & 2g positions time slip, as he saw it slip big time to end this past season.

I really think it is going to take a while for Pinson to regain his stamina and just don't see a lot of time this summer that he will be able to work on skill developement and that he REALLY does need. You looking at late August at best before he is able to do much at all on that foot, really puts him behind. He can work on upper body strength, needs that but I really hoped this summer he would be able to work on that UGLY jump shooting stroke, it is broke & that ain't no joke. I would suggest that Pinson was not even up to the JP level as a jump shooter but the kid has really good hand eye cordination, essential to develope a reliable jump shot and I think in time much better than JP. I see Pinson getting off to a some what slow start but improving almost game to game, I love this kid's potential but more than that I love his energy. Piinson is NBA lotto if he can develope a dependable jump shot, put that in your book and label it stuff David told ya!

Not gonna lie folks, you already know, I am just not that high on Nate. It is one thing to be a little fella like he is but man, ya got to play with more passion, you have to out work your competition because your size is a problem. I did not see Nate out work pretty much any one. I want the best for the kid but I didn't see the developement from him last season I need to see in sophs, other than his jump shooting it was pretty much the same as his freshman season, that just ain't good. I watched Mugsy Bouges dominate the game at what 5'5", I saw last season as opportunity lost by nate, he had the shot, he let Joel come in and take his spot, this off season will show me just how much nate really wants it but now that Joel has a taste, I do not see him letting go.

I agree on eeverything you said regarding Pinson. I believe he will make aprovements, hell from all accounts he made big strides from his junior year to senior year in high school. Unlike JP, we all know Pinson wont be afraid to shoot :)
 
I have said it for years that dSOUTHr knows how to answer a question with facts and statements instead of just a magic eight ball opinion. He was the bus driver of the saying Berry should be given the keys of running the team and he was right. Berry should be the starter but stranger things have happened before.
 
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Yep and I was RIGHT ALL SUMMER TO !


LOL . . . you got it wrong, Dave. No worries, Bro' . . it happens.

Berry never started game one for us.

All I know, is if you were a betting man you'd owe me a case of moon pies. LOL . .
 
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I have said it for years that dSOUTHr knows how to answer a question with facts and statements instead of just a magic eight ball opinion. He was the bus driver of the saying Berry should be given the keys of running the team and he was right. Berry should be the starter but stranger things have happened before.


There was nothing strange about Joel not starting.
 
Berry to start.
Why? He has the knack/ability/nous to know when to speed up and when to slow down. He has a little dribble move he uses in half court sets where he turns his back to the hoop and steps back from the offence which gives him more space and time. When holding the ball he makes decisions and then acts on them with conviction.
Berry is very good going to the hoop and in open court play. He can finish a drive with balance or off balance.
Berry also showed his shooting ability. He didn't have to take shots with a defender in his face and he does keep the ball low before beginning his shooting action so with closer guarding he may not be as effective. But when open his end of season form was very good.
I think JB is underrated (by some here) as a defender. On the ball he's good and a dynamic ball hawker - just like Marcus. However, he found himself out of position at times last year, but don't most frosh in Roys system?

Britt off the bench
Why? His decision making is patchy and I think that comes from not being able to change speeds in unison - his body slows down but mind doesn't or visa versa. He can shoot and needs to make better use of his outside shot. When driving he needs to understand when to take a shot himself and when to offload - a number of times this year he forced a tough, guarded layup while a team mate stood unguarded and ready to score. Ball handling isn't so bad, decision making and spacing I think are a bigger issue with Nate.

Theo off the bench
Why? I think Theo will be the primary backup for Justin and or Marcus/Joel. Basically I see him as the instant energy off the bench at either #2 or #3. I agree with Dave, he has great potential and he may steal more minutes this year than we think. If there's one player on the roster who'd be relieved that BI chose the dark side it'll be Theo. And that's why I won't cry about that decision, I like Theo a lot and look forward to his improvement next year and then his leadership the year after.

Sorry for the long reply - channelling my inner DSouth!
 
I think there are a couple of things Britt does better than Berry. One, he shoots better. I don't know if the percentages are close but don't really care. Britt's shot is much better. Two, he really pushes the pace well when he is on his game. However, he cancels that out by flatlining once he gets on the offensive end. He will push it and then it stalls. I really hope he comes into his own but I think Berry is not only better at almost everything else but he also has more potential. Regardless, Nate could improve and come back and show he can run the team with a purpose. If he does that, he can be a good player for UNC.
 
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I absolutely love Nate and am really happy that he will be here next season. However, Joel just has that air about him. He is fearless going to the hoop and carries himself like a winner. I can't see him not starting. He had some room to improve but by the end of the season even through the injuries he made good strides. He should be the starter. Nate will still get plenty of minutes and they will be meaningful minutes and he will help the team.
 
By the way, gary need not reply. :cool:
Ha!
Mikey, I've been sitting here reading this thread with amusement trying to figure out if it was even a real question :p
Seriously, since Dave, Oz and Jericho took care of the actual logic, I'll just add that barring another suspension/injury debacle (or the unlikely event that Roy has finally taken leave of his senses) the chances of Nate starting next season in a game that's not his "home" game are approximately... 0%.
 
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The only thing Nate does nearly as well is shoot, and that was less consistent than Berry late in the year. Running the offense and playing d are not serious comparisons. Brice vs Hicks would be a better debate honestly.
 
LOL . . . you got it wrong, Dave. No worries, Bro' . . it happens.

Berry never started game one for us.

All I know, is if you were a betting man you'd owe me a case of moon pies. LOL . .

Would be starting yep, he didn't start but SHOULD be starting is a very different thing, isn't it my friend.
 
Ha!
Mikey, I've been sitting here reading this thread with amusement trying to figure out if it was even a real question :p
Seriously, since Dave, Oz and Jericho took care of the actual logic, I'll just add that barring another suspension/injury debacle (or the unlikely event that Roy has finally taken leave of his senses) the chances of Nate starting next season in a game that's not his "home" game are approximately... 0%.

Hey gary, curious, why do you think Roy didn't start Joel last season, I have discussed my thoughts on why, just curious what your thoughts are on why? I think I know Roy's thinking on this but I have said many times that I disagreed and I see Roy's usage of Joel later season stand as proof that my thinking early was on target.
 
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Dave/gary, think if not for the injury-sickness we would have seen Berry start. Played a BIG part, and Roy may have been a little nervous about starting 2 freshmen when one was being very in-consistent until right toward the end of the season.

Roy does make me scratch my head from time-time but he's also in the HOF for a reason.
 
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Would be starting yep, he didn't start but SHOULD be starting is a very different thing, isn't it my friend.

I'd file that under message board fan's opinions woulda, coulda and shoulda . .

LOL
 
:rolleyes:
I'd file that under message board fan's opinions woulda, coulda and shoulda . .

LOL

Hey, I got a thick file in there but for sure file that one under the "shoulda" section, cause it shoulda been the case !
 
Roy LOVES JB. Legit loves him. He will be given every single opportunity to win that job.
 
Berry didn't start last year because Paige wants to play point because it is his only position he can play in the nba and due to upperclassmen loyalty to JP.
 
Hey gary, curious, why do you think Roy didn't start Joel last season, I have discussed my thoughts on why, just curious what your thoughts are on why? I think I know Roy's thinking on this but I have said many times that I disagreed and I see Roy's usage of Joel later season stand as proof that my thinking early was on target.

Dave, I've posted this before in bits and pieces, but what has transpired since the season ended has pretty much borne it out.

At the start of the season Roy had a dilemma on his hands. He had Jackson and Berry who were both ready to start from Day 1, but what to do about JP? He was experienced and versatile and knew the system and a starting slot was his to lose. So that only left one open job. Roy's dilemma thus became whom to start --- Jackson or Berry? I thoroughly believe it came down to what Roy had gone through the previous season, when, as we remember, because of the suspensions Roy was forced to start Britt at the outset... and once teams figured out his weaknesses that didn't go well at all. Fact is the only thing that saved us from an NIT fate in 2013-14 was McDonald coming back and Roy moving him into the starting lineup at the 2 and Paige back to the Point.

Bottom line is that Roy was likely still a bit gun-shy about starting another freshman PG. Even though JB came in head-and-shoulders better than Nate at the same stage (folks can scoff at that if they wish, but it is what it is), it is true that the learning curve for Carolina PGs is the steepest of any position in the system, so Roy decided to play it safe with Marcus' experience at PG and gambled that Jackson could fill the missing 2-guard role. Meanwhile Berry could learn behind Paige.

Well, we all saw how that worked out. Jackson just isn't inclined to the role of secondary ball-handler --- he is a born 3 --- and JP had 2-guard ambitions and just assumed the role by default, and that of course set the stage for what turned out to be a season of offensive dysfunction, as well as what we now know to have been a recurring conflict with Roy over JP's role on the team.

This isn't meant to slam Roy. Coaches have to make tough personnel decisions and sometimes they turn out to be mistakes. Roy gambled and lost on this one. It happens. Roy recognized that the hard way, and was set to make the move once Berry came back from injury and showed with zero doubt he was ready to run the show and how much better a team we were with he and Marcus in the backcourt. But then the virus hits and sets it back and by then Roy just hoped he could cobble through with Berry just playing an expanded role. Again, unfortunately, mistake. Of course, by that time the JP situation might have made any adjustment problematic chemistry-wise.

Dave, you and I both knew that from an ability, skills and mindset standpoint, Berry was our best PG the moment he stepped on campus. All that was missing was the learning curve for the position. We were both advocates from the outset that Berry be handed the keys and tackle the learning curve on the fly (the way Jones was at dook). As it turns out, Roy would have been better served choosing that option.

As much as I pulled for JP, his leaving has solved the chemistry dilemma. And there is no doubt as to the best fits for respective roles going forward. Berry is our best PG. Paige is our best 2. Jackson is our best 3. Brice is our best 4. Meeks is our best 5. That is a loaded starting lineup and we have talented depth. If Roy goes with anything other than that, well... that's when I might have to stop scratching my head and join the Roy-bashing crowd. ;)
 
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Maybe it's just me but other than the last three minutes of our season... Britt outplayed berry! Berry is a better defender but he doesn't look to pass at ALL! With JP gone there is no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time they get the ball! Berry is a very good player albeit but he's very selfish on the court
 
As for who should get the nod... Pinson! He's electric on the court reminds me of PJ
 
This is one of the silliest conversations I've ever seen on here. Like Gary said (sort of), if our starting lineup isn't include Berry, Paige, Jackson, Brice, Meeks, I'll officially be ready to start looking for a new coach.
 
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^^^AMEN. Is this debate still going?? Mike, said it best "This won't take long at all"

Summary - Britt is just NOT better than berry, wasn't last year and certainly wont be this year or any other year. Britt was a 3 star and berry was a 5 star (3 time Mr bball in Florida). Really no comparison!
 
Maybe it's just me but other than the last three minutes of our season... Britt outplayed berry! Berry is a better defender but he doesn't look to pass at ALL! With JP gone there is no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time they get the ball! Berry is a very good player albeit but he's very selfish on the court
...and I think the message board shark has finally been jumped. For the sake of the poster's credibility I'm hoping this is a troll (albeit a weak one). Wow. Just wow. :rolleyes:
 
Maybe it's just me but other than the last three minutes of our season... Britt outplayed berry! Berry is a better defender but he doesn't look to pass at ALL! With JP gone there is no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time they get the ball! Berry is a very good player albeit but he's very selfish on the court
It is just you.
 
Maybe it's just me but other than the last three minutes of our season... Britt outplayed berry! Berry is a better defender but he doesn't look to pass at ALL! With JP gone there is no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time they get the ball! Berry is a very good player albeit but he's very selfish on the court

Yes, it is just you.

The three minutes you reference (and the reason why it was our last of the season) should tell you all you need to know about Nate’s ability to play big boy ball in big games.
Not really sure where you’re coming from on the “no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time”. Our problem last year was that no one was willing to take a shot, and kept running around in circles until Marcus would finally take one. Having someone who isn’t afraid to let it fly will be good for this team.
 
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Maybe it's just me .....

Yup

All seriousness, this isn't based on the last 3min of the season. Go back and watch more game tape, especially the last 10 min of the first Dook Game. Watch the games when Joel was injured and see the starting five overwhelm other teams with athleticism, jump out to a lead only for Roy to rest Marcus.... guess where that often went.
Nate will be a good back-up this year, and hopefully an improved player overall, but for many here Joel B has "it"
 
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Just don't think Berry is that great... Berry looked great going 1 on 4 as well in his last eight minutes of his season. But that's neither here nor there. Don't think Britt should start, but all this berry praise is undeserving.
 
Just don't think Berry is that great... Berry looked great going 1 on 4 as well in his last eight minutes of his season. But that's neither here nor there. Don't think Britt should start, but all this berry praise is undeserving.


Then I will politely say we TOTALLY DISAGREE. Now I could rip off a big time word count explaining why I so strong disagree with your point here. If you can honestly tell me that you felt Britt out played Joel, with the exception of the last 3minutes of the season then any words I would share would not change your mind because we see 2 VERY different things.
 
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Just don't think Berry is that great... Berry looked great going 1 on 4 as well in his last eight minutes of his season. But that's neither here nor there. Don't think Britt should start, but all this berry praise is undeserving.

Then I will politely say we TOTALLY DISAGREE. Now I could rip off a big time word count explaining why I so strong disagree with your point here. If you can honestly tell me that you felt Britt out played Joel, with the exception of the last 3minutes of the season then any words I would share would not change your mind because we see 2 VERY different things.
Cut him some slack, Dave. Mushrooms cause folks to see all sorts of things :confused:
 
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Maybe it's just me but other than the last three minutes of our season... Britt outplayed berry! Berry is a better defender but he doesn't look to pass at ALL! With JP gone there is no way we can have three perimeter players looking for a shot every time they get the ball! Berry is a very good player albeit but he's very selfish on the court

come on Nate you aren't fooling anyone ;)
 
Mikey, pin this statement in the archives and show it next March:

"If the Heels win the National title, the key players will be Justin Jackson and Joel Berry, both at times taking over games. Both will make All-ACC, either first or second team"

Pin it somewhere Mikey.
 
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