I like Davis and Love but they are both combo guards. Carolina needs a point guard who can create and break down the opposing defenses.
Carolina doesn't have a true Point Guard
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We had a 15 point lead at halftime of the National Championship Game last year without a true PG, that’s no excuse. Differences between last year and this year are that shots have not been falling & HD has to tinker with lineups & get everybody on the same page like he did last year. He did that masterfully last year, albeit he had some help with Garcia leaving. I believe we’ll lose 1 more time before February & then the narrative on these boards will change drastically.
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RJ and Caleb need to play up to their capabilities more consistently. If they do, we’ll be pretty good. If they don’t, we’ll be pretty bad.
True. And that goes back to Roy. Roy's ideology was get top and down the court the fastest to get of the most shots. That being the case, he recruited Guards first and foremost for athleticism to get up and down the court. Things like having leadership skills and patience to run ahead court offense and defense, ability to shoot 3s and guard 3s were secondary at best. So what th4e team has now is 2 very athle4tic guards who are playground kids writ large.
Sorry, but that’s pure bullshit. Roy went after a couple of PG’s but just missed on them. RJ getting his play under control and looking to facilitate a bit more was as crucial to our late run as was Brady’s play. For some reason, RJ and Caleb have both regressed this year and now their shots aren’t falling. I think a good part of it is the offense Hubert is trying to run. Regardless, we’ll go as far as they take us. Let’s hope the lightbulb comes on for them as well as the staff while the season is salvageable.
I'd like to see more of him, but is his D good enough? I just started a thread on the triangle and 2 defense. Might be a horrible idea. I don't know enough to know. But part of my thinking was that it could be easier for guys like T-Nick or Jalen Washington - on the assumption they would be part of the triangle, not the 2.
I would start Puff at the 4 with the notion that once he has his game legs under him for that starting spot to be Washington. I would still start RJ and Caleb but Trimble gets 20mins between the 1 and the 2. HOWEVER, when Trimble comes in he plays the point no matter if it is Caleb or RJ that comes out. Look, Caleb and RJ are alpha scorers, not only is that the sweet spot of their games it is what they seem to define their games by. So let them be what they are but realize their being what they are tends to step on each other at times as well as lacks a guy more focused on facilitating the offense when they are both looking more for their own ops to score. Trimble looks at facilitating unless he has a lane to the rim, meaning Trimble is more a pass first guy that is really effective as a combination passer and looks to me to be the best ball handler we have, is clearly the best defender we have in that back court. I start Leaky but realize, with both Leaky and Trimble I have 2 really strong defenders but I lose some big time scoring from the 3 and the 1 so I need it strong from the 2, 4, and 5 spots. In NO WAY do I want Leaky setting up outside, I invert him with the 4 and have him post up against a wing in the paint. Leaky is more a threat when one of his feet are in or close to the paint when a college wing is trying to guard him.
I move Nance to backing up Bacot, it isn't so much that he can't play, he IMO can be a real asset but the best of his game from what I see is his ability to knock down those mid range bank shots and that jump hook, both with no more than a single dribble if that. I am fine with him flashing outside the 3pt arch as the ball swings to that side, if the defending big does not follow him I am fine with him popping the trey jumper, he can hit that when he has the time to get in to his motion. If the big does trail him outside, cut back down thru the paint and set a cross screen for the power forward. I DO NOT just have him standing outside in some kind of strange isolation action when the ball is stuck on the other side of the court. Puff is constant motion, he does not get stuck in one spot and he works on the defensive end. Washington is a gem, quickly to become a fan favorite, may have more upside than anyone else on this roster, think maybe Brandan Wright with a really nice jump shot.
From there I sprinkle in Nickel in each half at the wing for some scoring punch and fresh legs. Styles and McKoy have to earn PT, right now they are earning bench time and especially Styles. Hate to call it so early but Styles and Shaver look to me like future portal guys, not because they can't play but seem to be both just are not the level of talent needed for a program like this, to me they are mid major D-1 type guys that could do well at a lesser program that plays with more structure.
I hate junk defenses in general! I think it is akin to admitting you are overmatched. Hubs has shown he is good at figuring out the motivation his team needs and he will get this one right eventually. RJ is our PG and nobody on the team could run it better. He isn't hitting shots and neither is Caleb and this makes everything look bad. Hubs has expanded his bench and the players played well so it will continue. Hubs went after pure points and they didn't choose to attend sobeit! We will be fine!
I wouldn't call T+2 a junk defense. I mean technically it is, but it doesn't have to be junky. Per Wikipedia "The set was used by the Kansas Jayhawks against Harrison Barnes and Reggie Bullock of the North Carolina Tar Heels in the 2012 NCAA Tournament Midwest Regional final.[2] This resulted in North Carolina failing to hit a shot from the field for the final 5:48 of the game, and a failure to score at all for the final 3:58."
Sure, we were missing Kendall, but still....
Arch, I see it a bit differently, have seen this since those 2 started for us as freshmen with Roy their coach as well as consistently since then. They are 2 really talented guys individually but they are a bit like oil and water when mixed together, they tend to step on each others game more than allow it to flourish. The sum is supposed to be greater than the individual pieces but in this case I do not think it is. Basically they are both the same player, both are extremely score first mindsets, alpha scorers. It is a bit of to many chiefs and not enough injuns. One of the 2 has to take a step back and during our NCAAT run last season, RJ took a small step back and allowed Caleb to shine brighter, does not seem as willing to do that so far this season.
Truth is this Caleb RJ duo is IMO just built for the open court game way more than the half court, this team in fact seems really put together for more of a open court game than a half court game. But we are consistently pulling off of the breaks and settling in to half court, the bigs are not going in to secondary break action and the guards are not looking for them to. This team needs to get back to the UNC breaking open court game, even off made baskets.
While I do consider Tri2 or box in 1s to be junk defenses I don't mean that to say we should not use them. Both are good adjustments to make at times, just not as a primary look.
I've been thinking about this.
Last year, RJ (finally) learned to distribute inside. He made a bunch of nifty inside passes - especially to Brady but also to Armando.
That's not happening this season because no Brady. Without Brady and with Armando being way below par, so far, the opportunities just aren't there. Neither Armando nor Nance seems to have particularly good hands. And you definitely cringe when they dribble.
So . . . without good inside targets, you get a lot of dribbling. And forced shots. Plus you invite in-your-grill defense (if the opponent has anybody good enough).
I keep expecting Nance and Bacot to step up, but Armando has definitely back-slid a lot this season (and then got hurt), and Nance too often looks clueless. Or maybe it's the coaching that's clueless about how to use Nance.
Meanwhile, Caleb seems to think his job is to improve his resume. I'm still waiting for Caleb to get RJ the ball when RJ goes to his spot on the left sideline. Maybe it's happened but, if so, I missed it.
I'm not suggesting it as our primary D. I mean Trimble and Blck may not even be on the floor together more than 10 minutes a game. OTOH, if you try it and it's working, you could make a point of having them in the game together more minutes.
And while Leaky and Seth are the most likely candidates for T+2, it doesn't have to be them. Might be Puff and Caleb, or RJ and Nance, or Justin and Styes. Really, whenever 2 of our guys have the number of the guy they're defending, we could slip into T+2.
The more I think about this the more l like it. But that could just be because I don't know enough to see the downsides.
Kansas was admitting they were overmatched. But they also knew we didn't have a PG good enough to adjust. With a proper point and more than two scorers, this D just leaves too many open shots and doesn't put peeps in place to get rebounds....now that I think about it, peeps could use it against us right now, but we only have a few who could be trusted to stay with their men and others aren't going to play the zone part well enough.
I think the emergence of Seth; the addition of Nickel; increased health/conditioning for Puff; and the wildcard that is Washington will add up to a completely different team!
I think the emergence of Seth; the addition of Nickel; increased health/conditioning for Puff; and the wildcard that is Washington will add up to a completely different team!
I don't want any defense that increases the probability of opponents shooting 3's against us. I know the last two games Indiana and Virginia Tech destroyed us inside, but the longterm path to success for us defensively is allowing fewer 3-point attempts and fewer layups. Any iteration of zone goes against that. Also, this doesn't appear to be the best rebounding version of UNC we've ever seen.
I don't mind it situationally. Out of timeouts maybe to neutralize if a coach drew up a play likely against man.
Nickel starts at the THREE.
RJ - 1 -backup Trimble
Caleb - 2 - backup Trimble
Nickel - 3 - backup Puff
Leaky - 4 - backup Puff/Washington
Bacot - 5 - back up Washington/Nance
RJ - 1 -backup Trimble
Caleb - 2 - backup Trimble
Nickel - 3 - backup Puff
Leaky - 4 - backup Puff/Washington
Bacot - 5 - back up Washington/Nance
Dave, we’re not far apart at all. I agree that neither RJ nor Caleb are natural PG’s. But I would have thought by now they would have realized that if either wants to play for pay beyond NIL, they would need to demonstrate the ability to run a team as PG. Neither is strong enough nor a good enough shooter to play SG past the collegiate level. So one would think that it would behoove them to improve their ballhandling and decision making(both in assisting teammates and in shot selection). If they stop their selfish play, make smarter decisions, and play better defense, I think their FG%‘s will improve and the entire team will reap the benefits. If not, it could be a long season.
UNC have not had an elite PG since Joel Berry.
Coby and Cole were elite combos with the ability to play point… they were elite enough to get drafted after 1 year. And they both had one elite skill that our current combos do not: they could blow past defenders and beat their man off the bounce.
RJ does this sometimes, Caleb thinks he can but is most often blocked below the rim… or by the rim!
Let’s pray Hubert lands both cadeau and fland!
Coby and Cole were elite combos with the ability to play point… they were elite enough to get drafted after 1 year. And they both had one elite skill that our current combos do not: they could blow past defenders and beat their man off the bounce.
RJ does this sometimes, Caleb thinks he can but is most often blocked below the rim… or by the rim!
Let’s pray Hubert lands both cadeau and fland!
Nowhere did I say that, but if you have poor grammar & intended to put a question mark at the end of that sentence, I can agree to a degree. If the question is “am I optimistic we’ll figure things out by March?”, then the answer is yes, but I can’t say for sure that we’ll have another finals game appearance, so don’t put words in my mouth.
IMO we hit a little bit of a perfect storm (in the opposite direction) in that we lost all of the loseable games we could in one stretch with some unfavorable circumstances. If we lose 3 or 4 more before the end of January I’ll become concerned, but I think we get on a pretty big run here & win 10 of the next 11 or something like that.
Oh no, was not suggesting we were far apart on this, that is why I said a bit differently, rather than disagree I kinda just turned it slightly. I don't know that I can recall a good discussion of the chemistry between Caleb and RJ, plenty about over all team chemistry but not so much between the 2 starters. It is like they need a binding agent... is another word for that leader?
The other thing that we really do not talk a lot about is this simple question (you know how I like to ask simple questions that do not have simple answers
, who is the leader of this team? It isn't Bacot, he is more a lead by example guy, same as Leaky but not that vocal unquestionable leader. It surely isn't Caleb or RJ because they are in dire need of someone to lead them. Brady was a lot of that last season, was a big voice in player only meetings. It isn't Nance, he is trying to fit in any place he can. Do we really have a team leader, could that be a big part of the problem? I actually thought, based on the games vs duke and the NCAAT run that RJ was emerging as our leader of the pack but this season it does not look like it. A team without a leader is like a boat without a rudder... Do we have a David Noel, George Lynch, Marcus Paige, Joel Berry, Hansbourgh, Theo Pinson, Ray Felton?
I'm hopeful that Trimble will get there, too. He doesn't have Coby's zig-zags, and hasn't shown the shooting touch yet, but those could come and he definitely has the athleticism and defensive chops.
Everyone talks about Trimble’s shooting but lol he has the highest percentage and hasn’t missed a three yet! Granted he’s only 1 for 1 bahahaha. I’d love to see more of him. He’s strong, plays stellar d, and not flashy or looking for “his”.
I firmly believe that is our boys problems right now. No team, just a bunch of “his” running around.
I firmly believe that is our boys problems right now. No team, just a bunch of “his” running around.
Puff could be that leader we need. Washington is another candidate once we see his on-court persona. I agree that the team needs a mature, skilled, vocal leader to re-establish the proper identity! RJ and Caleb could still grow into the leadership role, but they just need it to click again like it did last year! Seth is exactly where he needs to be; he comes off the bench and gets to see the game dynamic before coming in to provide a spark no matter where he plays. New team, new cycle!
It's hard to imagine RJ or Caleb becoming effective leaders while they are both here. They too often seem to be pulling in different directions. If Caleb leaves after this year - which what most people still expect, I assume - RJ might become that guy next year.
Shouldn't have to wait until next year, though. I'd think Hubert could shape them up - but this unhealthy competition (as I see it) has been with us since they were freshmen. It seemed to diminish significantly the 2nd half of last year, but now seems to be back.
When it diminished was also when we were playing our best ball.
The other option is to play Seth more minutes at point. 30 minutes of Seth at point is 3/4 of the game with RJ and Caleb mainly being shooters. Worth a try.
Hubs got them to curb their tendencies last year and I trust he can do it again! I liked how Caleb sounded in the last presser. Seth is NOT ready to play point for 30 minutes! He still needs to learn nuances like spacing, when/where to pick up his dribble; decision making in the pick/roll/pop; and which spots to never dribble into. He is learning but isn't there yet! Nursing something back to health requires patience and persistence. When doctors amputate, it is because hope is lost!
Yes, Trimble does have a lot to learn, he is a freshman so of course that is true. No, it isn't ideal to have a freshman PG. But for me it really isn't about what class Trimble is in or how much he has to learn or any other variable some may want to discuss. It is simply about who puts this team in a better position to win and a case can be made that Trimble at the point may be the better solution, note that I said a case can be made, not that it is conclusive or absolute at this point.
Let me take you back a few years, we had this young freshman PG named Joel Berry. The starting PG at the time was Marcus Paige, great UNC player for sure but I made the case many times way back then that Marcus was a better threat for us as a 2 guard than as the point, I lobbied for Joel Berry to be our starting PG. And about half way thru that season, maybe a touch earlier, it looked as if Joel was going to be named our starting PG but he got hurt and it didn't happen. Let me be really clear, Marcus Paige was a MUCH better PG than Caleb or RJ are today and in many ways Joel as a freshman was similar to Trimble, Joel was not the jump shooter as a freshman he developed in to during his UNC career.
Now I don't see us starting Trimble at the point, not unless injury hots Caleb or RJ and I do not want that to happen. I think it risks severe locker room problems if you bench one of those 2 but you don't have to bench them, you simply carve out the PT between the 2 for Trimble, 10mins from each gives Seth 20mins a game and still leaves Caleb and RJ 30mins each to play. Thing is when Trimble comes in I think he should come in as the PG and have the guy left in play the 2 be it RJ or Caleb. What has been happening is when RJ comes out Caleb takes over the point and if Caleb comes out RJ remains at the point. IN some cases Seth has come in and RJ & Caleb stay in with puts Seth at the 3? The really strange part is no matter what the mix is it is usually Seth that picks up the opposing PG on the defensive end.
Love honestly is becoming a defensive liability, I watched one sequence from the VT game in which 4 times in a row Caleb got burned and it lead to easy VT scores each time, 4 successive trips down on the defensive end. I invite you, go back and watch that game and specifically watch Caleb on the defensive end, it isn't pretty at all. It is almost every trip down on the defensive end Caleb forces a bad switch or his man blows by him. What drives me insane is to watch them play 15-20 seconds of solid defense only to see Caleb take a risk to dive in and double a big in the paint and leave his primary assignment wide open with a great passing lane splash another trey? It is rinse and repeat being used on us and it is from bad decision making from both Caleb and RJ on BOTH ends of the court. Most of the time it looks to me like the poor decisions are being made because these 2 guys are rushing what they are doing rather than allow something good to develop.
To give an example, our football team has 2 freshman tail backs that I think was extremely talented in Hampton and Pettway, I thin in time these guys will star in our back field. But they both share a major problem as freshmen, they get the ball and they want to charge forward before their line has had chance to actually open a hole for them, you have to have the patience to let the play develop, happens a lot with freshmen. Well the same is true with our starting back court, they rush before things can develop and end up making a bad decision (the real bad decision was not allowing things to develop for a easy look).
Let me take you back a few years, we had this young freshman PG named Joel Berry. The starting PG at the time was Marcus Paige, great UNC player for sure but I made the case many times way back then that Marcus was a better threat for us as a 2 guard than as the point, I lobbied for Joel Berry to be our starting PG. And about half way thru that season, maybe a touch earlier, it looked as if Joel was going to be named our starting PG but he got hurt and it didn't happen. Let me be really clear, Marcus Paige was a MUCH better PG than Caleb or RJ are today and in many ways Joel as a freshman was similar to Trimble, Joel was not the jump shooter as a freshman he developed in to during his UNC career.
Now I don't see us starting Trimble at the point, not unless injury hots Caleb or RJ and I do not want that to happen. I think it risks severe locker room problems if you bench one of those 2 but you don't have to bench them, you simply carve out the PT between the 2 for Trimble, 10mins from each gives Seth 20mins a game and still leaves Caleb and RJ 30mins each to play. Thing is when Trimble comes in I think he should come in as the PG and have the guy left in play the 2 be it RJ or Caleb. What has been happening is when RJ comes out Caleb takes over the point and if Caleb comes out RJ remains at the point. IN some cases Seth has come in and RJ & Caleb stay in with puts Seth at the 3? The really strange part is no matter what the mix is it is usually Seth that picks up the opposing PG on the defensive end.
Love honestly is becoming a defensive liability, I watched one sequence from the VT game in which 4 times in a row Caleb got burned and it lead to easy VT scores each time, 4 successive trips down on the defensive end. I invite you, go back and watch that game and specifically watch Caleb on the defensive end, it isn't pretty at all. It is almost every trip down on the defensive end Caleb forces a bad switch or his man blows by him. What drives me insane is to watch them play 15-20 seconds of solid defense only to see Caleb take a risk to dive in and double a big in the paint and leave his primary assignment wide open with a great passing lane splash another trey? It is rinse and repeat being used on us and it is from bad decision making from both Caleb and RJ on BOTH ends of the court. Most of the time it looks to me like the poor decisions are being made because these 2 guys are rushing what they are doing rather than allow something good to develop.
To give an example, our football team has 2 freshman tail backs that I think was extremely talented in Hampton and Pettway, I thin in time these guys will star in our back field. But they both share a major problem as freshmen, they get the ball and they want to charge forward before their line has had chance to actually open a hole for them, you have to have the patience to let the play develop, happens a lot with freshmen. Well the same is true with our starting back court, they rush before things can develop and end up making a bad decision (the real bad decision was not allowing things to develop for a easy look).
I mostly agree with all of the above but:
1. MP was great at both AND team first was intrinsic in him. Moving him to 2 or even to the bench would never have been a chemistry issue! (Kinda like why Butter had to wait even though he was clearly better than WithDrew. Roy was a genius for realizing he would need WD that season and trying to keep him focused on the team)
2. Joel Berry was a great PG from the womb! He was born thinking team first! He probably assisted his mother in his own birth and then patted the Doc on the arse!
3. Seth, Caleb, and RJ are all lead guards at varying stages of learning to be points! I am very concerned about them lapsing, especially on D, but they both would have trouble following a freshman IMO.
Bringing in Seth at point for short stints would be good for him and the team since it might come down to him being needed! The question is how it would impact the locker room. 20 minutes is max at point. I think at 30, we would start to see issues.
1. MP was great at both AND team first was intrinsic in him. Moving him to 2 or even to the bench would never have been a chemistry issue! (Kinda like why Butter had to wait even though he was clearly better than WithDrew. Roy was a genius for realizing he would need WD that season and trying to keep him focused on the team)
2. Joel Berry was a great PG from the womb! He was born thinking team first! He probably assisted his mother in his own birth and then patted the Doc on the arse!
3. Seth, Caleb, and RJ are all lead guards at varying stages of learning to be points! I am very concerned about them lapsing, especially on D, but they both would have trouble following a freshman IMO.
Bringing in Seth at point for short stints would be good for him and the team since it might come down to him being needed! The question is how it would impact the locker room. 20 minutes is max at point. I think at 30, we would start to see issues.
It's a concern. But on the flip side, with Seth at point, RJ and Caleb can focus more on what they do best - which is to score. So they might be very happy handing the hard part to Seth.
25 min for Seth, give or take, all at PG. That's what I'd try for the next 2 games.
Don't forget that that leaves 15 min when RJ or Caleb handles point. And frankly, if I'm Hubert, the guy who's shooting best stays at the 2 and the other guy handles PG when Seth is out. Because part of the plan is to rejuvenate scoring prowess by Caleb and RJ. So if it's working, ride it.
Pretty sure it won't happen. And maybe it shouldn't. Because if it fails, you've wasted your last 2 easy games without improving in the back court.
But what if it works...?
IDK Tp, maybe it just comes down to what you, me, or anyone defines or values in a PG. I am old school and happy to be so, for me my PG is the QB of the team and his primary goal is to set up scores, throw to the right guy that scores, can see the alignment and calls that running play because he knows the hole will be there. I am not the guy that wants my QB to run a lot, in my mind that is why we have RBs. Same with my PG, I want him setting up easy looks for his mates as his prtimary focus on the offensive end, his personal scoring is good but should come within the flow of the offense, not so much man on man, unless the shot clock has dwindled down (and my PG has a lot to do with that as well) or he has a guy he can easy beat thru a direct lane to the rim. To me it is the decision making from my PG that sets my whole offense up just as the decisions by Drake Maye set up our offense in football. The decision making from our starting back court duo leaves a lot to be desired and we see that way to much. Usually when decision making is a problem the one making the decision does not see everything, that is what made kendal such a great PG for us, he was able to see over everyone defending him so he had more options than a kid that can not see anything but what is directly in front of him. Notice how often our starting back court duo drops their head and tries to make a move with the ball, how do you see your options when your head is down? LOL
The key to this is keeping RJ and Caleb as starters but tell them when Trimble is in go look for your shot, just pass it out if the shot is not there, don't throw up a prayer in a tight game. I used 20mins for Trimble (10 from Caleb and RJ) so that RJ and Caleb still get 30mins each, enough time they should not be upset. It is not the risky plan, it is to me the smart plan.
I do think we are about to see a MAJOR upgrade in play happen when Washington starts getting some time, I am really excited that today looks like it could be his first game action. Kid is long, did I mention that kid is long, kid is 7'5" reach long, that exceeds Henson long I think. That means we have a shot blocker from the off side that erases some of these defensive mistakes, Bacot is a big guy but is not that defensive shot blocking force, Nance can block from the off side but he isn't really fluid, a bit slow to get good position. Washington is a very fluid athlete that plays long and before his injuries was able to go up on his second leap quickly and on balance (a thing you do not see in our front court up to now this season). Would not even minor surprise me to see the kid as our starting four 4 or 5 games from now, I actually expect it. Oddly, I think Nance may be a better player coming off the bench than starting.
