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Coaches HotSeat has Fedora #2

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WoadBlue

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They know our job is coveted: "Unless Larry Fedora can rally the Tar Heels that looks like a 3 or 4 win season coming off a 3 – 9 record in 2017 and that record would lead to a Helluva coaching job that a Helluva Lot of football coaches would love to have opening up in early December!"

Or are they just having fun with our suffering?
 
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TarHeelMark said:
Since Meyer the lier is only at the top because he’s such a POS.... Larry is really no. 1 based on his poor results.
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Exactly. We al know Ohio St is not firing Urban. So the real #1 is Fedora.

Taggart #3 is far too high this early. But if FSU finishes 6-6 again, his seat really will be hot for 2019.

You'd think Illinois would fire Smith with a 3rd straight losing season, but Illini people have decide that a 5-7 record is a sign of great hope.
 
strummingram said:
Harbaugh is on the hot seat? Wow.

It's Willie Taggert's first season.
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If he loses to both Ohio St and Mich St this year, after losing to ND, his seat will be hot even if Michigan is 9-3. Michigan boosters will not tolerate strings of losses to the most hated rivals. Lloyd Car won a National title and still got forced out after losing 4 in a row to Ohio St.
 
Michigan won't fire Harbaugh. The only way he leaves is if takes an open NFL job.
 
Interesting to see Orgeron at #24 after being in the top 3 just before the season began. That Miami win definitely helped him, although Miami have been a little overrated.
 
I want to throw out an idea that is probably not very popular on this site: The Academic Scandal surely hurt Fedora's recruiting. If this statement is true should we not give the guy a chance to turn things around and avoid having to buy him out? (I hear $14 million is the number but I don't know.) I am not a big Fedora fan nor do I dislike him but I do admit that it takes good players to win and our football program has been under a cloud for many years. Anyway, what do you guys/gals think of this?
 
vbrs said:
I want to throw out an idea that is probably not very popular on this site: The Academic Scandal surely hurt Fedora's recruiting. If this statement is true should we not give the guy a chance to turn things around and avoid having to buy him out? (I hear $14 million is the number but I don't know.) I am not a big Fedora fan nor do I dislike him but I do admit that it takes good players to win and our football program has been under a cloud for many years. Anyway, what do you guys/gals think of this?
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I have a few thoughts. We are in year seven, so it's hard to say that he hasn't had a chance to turn things around (although I would argue that there wasn't really anything that needed to be turned around for the on field product). Our football recruiting during his first six years has been in line, or better than past recruiting classes under different coaches. Now that the scandal is over, our recruiting is not looking good at all. It looks like, as of now, that our upcoming classes will be no better (and perhaps worse) than they were during his first years. His best year came during the middle of the scandal, so you can't say that it hurt us that much if we had our best year in almost 20 years. A good coach can get by with average talent as long as he is willing to make adjustments and is at least an average in game coach with a disciplined team. Fed seems like he fails more times than he succeeds at those things.

ETA: I'm not trying to say Fed hasn't had legitimate challenges to deal with. NCAA sanctions and a lot of the fan base turning away from the program due to how the firing of Butch went down has been hard to deal with. But he's also had the full backing of the athletic department and facilities have been upgraded as well.
 
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vbrs said:
I want to throw out an idea that is probably not very popular on this site: The Academic Scandal surely hurt Fedora's recruiting. If this statement is true should we not give the guy a chance to turn things around and avoid having to buy him out? (I hear $14 million is the number but I don't know.) I am not a big Fedora fan nor do I dislike him but I do admit that it takes good players to win and our football program has been under a cloud for many years. Anyway, what do you guys/gals think of this?
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If you think the AFAM scandal hurt our recruiting, what do you think the collapse that began with the loss to Dook in 2016 is doing and will continue to do? Do you think that after this awful start to this season that if only Fedora gets a new vote of confidence, suddenly top assistant coaches will stop leaving him and other top assistants will flick to him? And that all those top players we offered who have committed to other schools (Moo, Dook, and Wake among them) will suddenly change their minds?

Last year, I started a thread that asked Fedora supporters to get specific about what would be the tipping point for them. I noted that back in the Bunting days, I realized that the pro-Bunting crowd was always vague about what they felt would constitute enough incompetence to convince them to jump ship.

I never had a hardcore Bunting supporter give me a serious answer. The reason ought to be obvious: most of them knew that the very low standards they had for Bunting meant that if they voiced them, they would be revealed as A-OK with at least 3 consecutive losing seasons, hoping that ole John would turn it around and avoid 4 straight losing teams.

None of the hardcore pro-Fedora people here ever stated flat out how bad things must get under Fedora before they would agree he must be replaced in 2018. So why don't you do that? Tell us how bad this year must be before you will agree that Fedora must be replaced. Then tell us how bad next year must be before you will agree that Fedora must be replaced then.
 
tarheel0910 said:
I have a few thoughts. We are in year seven, so it's hard to say that he hasn't had a chance to turn things around (although I would argue that there wasn't really anything that needed to be turned around for the on field product). Our football recruiting during his first six years has been in line, or better than past recruiting classes under different coaches. Now that the scandal is over, our recruiting is not looking good at all. It looks like, as of now, that our upcoming classes will be no better (and perhaps worse) than they were during his first years. His best year came during the middle of the scandal, so you can't say that it hurt us that much if we had our best year in almost 20 years. A good coach can get by with average talent as long as he is willing to make adjustments and is at least an average in game coach with a disciplined team. Fed seems like he fails more times than he succeeds at those things.
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I agree. Let's also remember that Roy Williams had to face the same recruiting challenges during the academic scandal and won a National Championship.
 
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MWHeels said:
I agree. Let's also remember that Roy Williams had to face the same recruiting challenges during the academic scandal and won a National Championship.
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I understand what you're saying, but football recruiting and basketball recruiting differ somewhat. I also think the impact it had on Roy is overstated somewhat. He was still able to bring in big time talent, it just wasn't the OAD talent. Traditionally though, his sweet spot has been 2-4 year guys anyway. It's also not really fair to compare Fed to a top 5 HOF college basketball coach.
 
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tarheel0910 said:
I understand what you're saying, but football recruiting and basketball recruiting differ somewhat. I also think the impact it had on Roy is overstated somewhat. He was still able to bring in big time talent, it just wasn't the OAD talent. Traditionally though, his sweet spot has been 2-4 year guys anyway. It's also not really fair to compare Fed to a top 5 HOF college basketball coach.
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But the issue with Fedora and recruiting is this: how many times over the past 6 recruiting classes did UNC finish a consensus #14 or 13 or 12 or 11 or even 10 among ACC schools? How many times over the past 6 years were UNC classes consensus ranked between #4 and 7 among ACC schools?

Those answers will tell a great deal about how much the scandal harmed recruiting.

Then we think about being post-scandal and look at how recruiting is going now.
 
I agree that Fedora did not do as well as Roy did during the same period. Basketball at UNC is much different than football at UNC. As I said earlier, I am not a big supporter of Larry's. He likely should be fired. But he has had to deal with difficult circumstances with the Academic Scandal and the Agent Scandal with Butch. I just wonder how long it will take another coach to turn the ship around and I admit the ship is going in the wrong direction. If his payoff is really $14 million then I think we should think long before we get rid of him and try another path.
 
vbrs said:
I agree that Fedora did not do as well as Roy did during the same period. Basketball at UNC is much different than football at UNC. As I said earlier, I am not a big supporter of Larry's. He likely should be fired. But he has had to deal with difficult circumstances with the Academic Scandal and the Agent Scandal with Butch. I just wonder how long it will take another coach to turn the ship around and I admit the ship is going in the wrong direction. If his payoff is really $14 million then I think we should think long before we get rid of him and try another path.
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14 mill??

Sheezus!

They'd better think harder when they offer extensions after just one good season.
 
vbrs said:
I agree that Fedora did not do as well as Roy did during the same period. Basketball at UNC is much different than football at UNC. As I said earlier, I am not a big supporter of Larry's. He likely should be fired. But he has had to deal with difficult circumstances with the Academic Scandal and the Agent Scandal with Butch. I just wonder how long it will take another coach to turn the ship around and I admit the ship is going in the wrong direction. If his payoff is really $14 million then I think we should think long before we get rid of him and try another path.
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How much money do you think UNC will lose by keeping Fedora? And we will lose money keeping him.
 
vbrs said:
I want to throw out an idea that is probably not very popular on this site: The Academic Scandal surely hurt Fedora's recruiting. If this statement is true should we not give the guy a chance to turn things around and avoid having to buy him out? (I hear $14 million is the number but I don't know.) I am not a big Fedora fan nor do I dislike him but I do admit that it takes good players to win and our football program has been under a cloud for many years. Anyway, what do you guys/gals think of this?
Click to expand...

I am not going to argue that you are wrong, I suspect he will be our coach at least thru next season. You look at this season so far and the number of players that have to sit out game for being STUPID! I could make the case that if he had his full compliment of players that the record could look much different than it does right now. I can reasonably give him a pass for last season because we all knew there was going to have to be a lot of rebuilding to occur and the injuries did nothing but make the existing problem so much worse.

It is a bit like getting drunk on New Years eve, deciding to drive to that next party and on the way get stopped by a road block and ending up in the tank with a DWI. Ya knew is was going to happen if you drove but you did it anyway. UNC Fans, not like we didn't know last season was going to be tuff going in but when it actually happened as we knew it would we bitched? LOL

Thing is, above what I just stated, Larry's coaching decisions give me, and I like the guy, reason to say WTF? There is just no way you stay with Elliot, no offense to the kid, he is doing the best he can but he has a weak arm and he stares down his receivers, sorry but that just can't happen. But Larry stays with him, you got to tap one of the freshmen, you have to have the arm strength to stretch the field or Payton Manny behind center and we have neither in Elliot.
 
Fed has proven to be stubborn as a mule, not slowing down his offense one iota, even when it meant putting porous defenses back out on the field after a one minute 3 and out series. His inability to game plan for specific teams' strengths and weaknesses, and especially to make in game adjustments, is a huge weakness. He doesn't seem capable of putting together a solid staff.

Worst of all, his teams are some of the most undisciplined teams I've ever watched. In the last 12 games alone, we have committed over 1,000 yards of penalties, over twice what our opponents have committed. That is something that shouldn't be happening at this point in Fed's UNC tenure.

ASU's Satterfield's teams look well prepared, disciplined, and confident, even when they are on the road against a top 10 team which is twice as talented. Everything we are not.
 
I can see Fed being the coach the rest of the season, don’t agree with it one bit but can see it, but if he leads us out onto the field in next years opener then I’m gonna be at a loss for words. He is not the man to lead us into the future for reasons already mentioned a thousand times since Saturday evening. Time to move on cause us fans deserve better than this shit show.
 
Deezheelz said:
I can see Fed being the coach the rest of the season, don’t agree with it one bit but can see it, but if he leads us out onto the field in next years opener then I’m gonna be at a loss for words. He is not the man to lead us into the future for reasons already mentioned a thousand times since Saturday evening. Time to move on cause us fans deserve better than this shit show.
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I think he's likely going to be here next year if he can get to five wins because of the amount of the buyout.
 
Deezheelz said:
I can see Fed being the coach the rest of the season, don’t agree with it one bit but can see it, but if he leads us out onto the field in next years opener then I’m gonna be at a loss for words. He is not the man to lead us into the future for reasons already mentioned a thousand times since Saturday evening. Time to move on cause us fans deserve better than this shit show.
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When a coach loses a fan base, the odds of ever getting it back are very slim and none. Fans might be silenced for a while, but each little failure will make them grumble again, each grumbling getting louder and lasting longer.

John Bunting still has people who excuse him for most of his failures, and Fedora will have his defenders even if this team finishes with 2 wins. But Bubba and the major basketball boosters and the administration can't make HS coaches respect Fedora's program, nor can they make UNC fans believe in Fedora and his program, nor can they force the best assistant coaches to stay under Fedora. They either will pay the buyout now, or they will pay with a program that is continues to lose interest from fans and football people generally, which means a program bleeding money.
 
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No excuses to be in this position after year seven. No excuses for inept coaching and lack of player development. No excuses to not have your team hyped to beat your rivals. Carolina Football has been nothing but dreams and futility. I haven't given up hope that someday we can compete for championships and major bowl games, but with Lawrence Fedora the hope and the thrill is gone.....:mad:
 
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for what he has given us the fans lately … we shouldn't give him more than a tank full of gas and we will mail his stuff to him
 
People need to quit going to the home games. That’s what drives the certainty of this decision. If the admin sees empty seats, it equals lost revenue. Continued perception of support for Fedora’s sorry ass is the last thing our administration needs to try and justify giving him another year.
 
GoNtheDistance said:
People need to quit going to the home games. That’s what drives the certainty of this decision. If the admin sees empty seats, it equals lost revenue. Continued perception of support for Fedora’s sorry ass is the last thing our administration needs to try and justify giving him another year.
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After last year, which followed the very disappointing, and dispiriting, close to the 2016 season, we were going to have major attendance issues no later than mid-season unless we got off to a good start.
 
GoNtheDistance said:
People need to quit going to the home games. That’s what drives the certainty of this decision. If the admin sees empty seats, it equals lost revenue. Continued perception of support for Fedora’s sorry ass is the last thing our administration needs to try and justify giving him another year.
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That's pretty much already happening. While attendance is still somewhat important to recruiting, it doesn't mean as much as it used to revenue wise because of the tv money.
 
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Archer2 said:
So what would our buyout be if he was fired after this season?

https://hkm.com/football/contracts/larry-fedora/
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I think it's somewhere between $12- $14 million. Not sure of the exact amount.

ETA: Just found this article. Not sure how accurate the numbers are.

"If North Carolina wants to fire Fedora, they'll pay a massive buyout of $14 million. That figure, instituted when he signed a contract extension in 2017, months after leading his team to the ACC title game, drops to $10.5 million after the 2019 season, $7 million after 2020 and $3.5 million after 2021."
 
tarheel0910 said:
I think it's somewhere between $12- $14 million. Not sure of the exact amount.

ETA: Just found this article. Not sure how accurate the numbers are.

"If North Carolina wants to fire Fedora, they'll pay a massive buyout of $14 million. That figure, instituted when he signed a contract extension in 2017, months after leading his team to the ACC title game, drops to $10.5 million after the 2019 season, $7 million after 2020 and $3.5 million after 2021."
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Everything is negotiable. If I were AD, Fedora would negotiate reasonably, or I would never rest until I ruined his possibility of ever getting another halfway decent job.

Fedora is extremely arrogant, but he is not retarded. He knows the bottom has dropped out of the program, and he can't blame it on anyone. He knows that there are many people across the country - including coaches and ADs and sportswriters - now talking about something I first hammered at the very beginning of the 2017 season: Koenning was a very good DC before working for Fedora and is a very good DC again. Under Fedora, Koenning looked to be the worst DC in the country. The Occam's Razor answer: Fedora made Koenning look that bad.

Fedora is going to have a hard time selling himself to any P5 AD, perhaps even as an OC. He does not want to become known as the greedy idiot who also acted to screw UNC fiscally to feel better about his coaching incompetence.

Or, he may be happy to take 14 million and never coach again. If he is, UNC should do everything legally possible to ruin him in every other way.

A proper man realizes how badly he's failed and gets out as gracefully as possible, gouging no one, doing all he can to make certain no one pays for his failures.
 
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WoadBlue said:
A proper man realizes how badly he's failed and gets out as gracefully as possible, gouging no one, doing all he can to make certain no one pays for his failures.
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You could just as easily say a proper man honors a contract. Fed has no incentive to negotiate. He's not going to get a P5 head coaching job until he proves himself at a smaller school again. If he doesn't get another job, it will be because of his performance not because he asked his contact to be honored.
 
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