How would things have gone if JP has not left?

[DSouthr]

Not looking to bash JP by asking this but I think it would have been an interesting situation had Jp not entered the draft and came back. Think about it there would be a serious log jam at the wing with Justin and Theo also there, ya know JP as a senior would have got solid PT.

I don't think Roy would have sat Berry to start JP but ya never know. But had that happened would this team have gelled together like it has? Hard for me to see we would have been better and hard to see we not have some chemistry issues. Just wondering other opinions on how they think things may have turned out had JP elected to come back and play for us this past season.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

I think we were far better off without JP. Not going to bash him, I stand by everything I said last year but that ship has sailed. Our results tell the story.

 

[Archer2]

It was best for all parties that he left, IMO. I believe his role would have been reduced, probably to the extent of losing his starting spot, and I think he was aware of that likelihood.

 

[TarHeaven]

Probably would've been better last year without him. And it's not a knock on him but both parties weren't on the same page. He wanted to run the show and wasn't close to being the best player on the team.

 

[Tom79]

Wisc got Koenig and we got JP...as was mentioned above interesting topic but not one we are concerned with at this juncture. I think for this group of Tar Heels, it has worked out very well.

 

[TARRRRRHEEEEEELS]

Wisc got Koenig and we got JP...as was mentioned above interesting topic but not one we are concerned with at this juncture. I think for this group of Tar Heels, it has worked out very well.

Where is JP nowadays?

 

[UNC-75]

Chemistry cannot be under valued. This team has chemistry. With JP who knows ???? I'm just fine where we are.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

It's all down to attitude.

Lest people forget, at the beginning of last year JP HAD to assume much more of a leadership role. Marcus was hobbling. Berry wasn't ready. Theo wasn't ready.

For much of the year, JP was our best 3-point shooter (and finished the year #2). For the entire year, he was our best assist man.

He was also likely to draw the toughest defensive assignment, game in and game out.

On the negative side, he had more turnovers than any of us liked and didn't drive as much as we wanted. OTOH, his 1.9:1 assist-to-TO ratio isn't awful and is actually quite good when you remember we're talking about a SF/SG who was pressed into service as more of a PG/SG nearly half the time. And remember, too, that JP was asked to play more on the perimeter, was more often the "give" part of a give-and-go, and he pretty much never got screens to help with his drives.

If that was the whole story, that's mostly positive. You want that kind of player. You especially want him if he can go back to his more natural role as SF/SG with the improvement of other players.

For the entire year, we all got used to seeing Roy yell at Brice. Something that bothered some of us, but seems to have finally paid off in Brice's senior season. But sometime around 2/3 into the season, JP became Roy's favorite target. But JP is not Brice. His attitude crashed, while his performance suffered and became erratic.

So here's the thing.... If the JP who returned was the JP we saw in the first 2/3 of the season, and if he adapted happily to a modest reduction in minutes, we would be a better team now with him.

But if the JP who returned was the unhappy, demoralized and sometimes underperforming JP we saw down the stretch, we are probably better off with the team we have.

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

Yeah, exactly. It looks to be a case of this being better for everyone, but the guy's still a Tar Heel, I don't see the point of piling on.

 

[johnhelvete]

The small lineup would be a little more viable with Tokoto and Roy might have used it a bit more with Tokoto on the team, but things have worked out pretty well for the team this year.

 

[ChiShankCity]

I presume Tokoto coming back means we would have kept last year's starting lineup. I think the days where you can be an elite team with a player that doesn't have really any capability of being an offensive threat (aside from rebounding) are over.

Plus the chances of having a lineup with: Britt, Pinson, Tokoto and James on the court at once would be realistic and that would just be an offensively putrid lineup.

Despite Paige's offensive slump through most of the season, Meeks' inconsistency and the relative inconsistency of our entire roster shooting the 3, our offense was 3 points per possession better this year. I know it's more complicated, but I think simply replacing Tokoto with a really good offensive player with Berry was a big part of the improvement.

Also, we're a lot better defensively than last year. And a lot of that probably has to do with 2 have 2 traditional guards that can defend traditional guards compared to forcing JP, a natural SF, to defend natural scoring guards.

 

[gary-7]

It's all down to attitude.
Lest people forget, at the beginning of last year JP HAD to assume much more of a leadership role. Marcus was hobbling. Berry wasn't ready. Theo wasn't ready.

...and here we go again .
Let's put this meme to rest once and for all:

1. Literally NO freshman PG is totally "ready" for the Carolina system (which puts more mental demands on the PG than any other system I know of. So "ready" is a relative term.

2. Every PG who has started in the system as a freshman has understandably struggled some early because of that. Kenny Smith started game-1 but had an adjustment period, Ty Lawson would have never started a single game as a frosh if Bobby Frasor hadn't blown a knee. Marcus Paige was brought in to be a back-up for a year but got thrown into the fire game-1 because of Butter leaving early. Hell, even the G.O.A.T. Phil Friggin Ford had his freshman moments (and he'll tell you so).

3. But here's the kicker: Whether it's Phil, The Jet, Ray, Ty or Butter, every one of the great PGs who started at some point in their freshman season got over their early bumps by playing through them. Joel Berry came in every bit as "ready" as any PG on that list, and ideally, given our personnel should have been given the keys early on. We most all know that Butter should have started the first game he ever played here but it took until Roy had finally seen enough of Larry Drew, and it happened at mid-season. Last season it took until Roy finally gave up on the JJ/JP experiment (and seeing how much more productive we were with two real Guards) to make the move to start JB, but the injury/illness pushed it to a point too late in the season to pull off.

The BEST news in all this is that JP (and I always had high hopes for him) has moved on and we have the team we have with the players getting the minutes they're getting.

 

[Bur-Heel]

Ty Lawson would have never started a single game as a frosh if Bobby Frasor hadn't blown a knee.

Very seriously doubt that!!

 

[gary-7]

Very seriously doubt that!!

I can pretty much guarantee it. Bobby was damned good (started as a frosh) and honestly the most mentally ready guy we've ever had there. Bobby was 5* Combo Guard who pretty much everybody wanted but was also a coach's kid with an enormous basketball IQ.

As for Ty not starting his freshman season, Roy has since said as much. Ty had tremendous upside of course and was a physical beast but he had a long way to go early on with the system. Ty would likely have moved into the starting PG slot his soph season and Bobby being a utility combo guy at the 1 and 2.

Now, if Bobby wasn't there Ty would have started day one... and he yes would have had early struggles (which he did when he took over), but would have learned and played through them.

 

[Grayhead]

Hard to replace senior leadership. But I doubt he would be happy on the bench. I miss seeing him at his full potential. As an above poaster states he was forced to play point part of the time. He did what was best for him and I don't blame him. Better all around imo

 

[Archer2]

I can pretty much guarantee it. Bobby was damned good (started as a frosh) and honestly the most mentally ready guy we've ever had there. Bobby was 5* Combo Guard who pretty much everybody wanted but was also a coach's kid with an enormous basketball IQ.

As for Ty not starting his freshman season, Roy has since said as much. Ty had tremendous upside of course and was a physical beast but he had a long way to go early on with the system. Ty would likely have moved into the starting PG slot his soph season and Bobby being a utility combo guy at the 1 and 2.

Now, if Bobby wasn't there Ty would have started day one... and he yes would have had early struggles (which he did when he took over), but would have learned and played through them.

Yep. Pele forget just how good Bobby was as a freshman before he got hurt. He was a shadow of himself afterward. He and Ty would have formed a great backcourt. At any rate, Wayne filled in nicely.

 

[superstar57]

Berry still starts and JJ becomes very mad, because he knows he is better. JP is a Heel forever, but this team "might" be better without him. If he was a pure shooter I would think different.

 

[war-blue]

Where is JP nowadays?

He's playing for the Oklahoma City Blue, D-League affiliate of the OKC Thunder. He averages 12 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.2 ast.

 

[bleeduncblue]

I miss his dunks .... that's pretty much it.

 

[gary-7]

Yep. Pele forget just how good Bobby was as a freshman before he got hurt. He was a shadow of himself afterward. He and Ty would have formed a great backcourt. At any rate, Wayne filled in nicely.

You are so right, Arch. Even as a true freshman Bobby was a coach on the floor and was the glue of that overachieving inexperienced team in 05-06. And yeah, he was just starting to get back to his old pre-injury self (sadly) at the very end of his last season (and he was a big part of the championship run). It's a travesty that the NCAA denied him a medical redshirt. Had he been able to stay an extra season, just think --- a healthy Redshirt Senior Bobby Frasor would have been our starting PG in 2010-11 instead of Larry Drew --- and I'll flat guarantee we wouldn't have been relegated to the damned NIT. Bobby would have been the perfect transition to the Butter era.

 

[DSouthr]

I think had JP came back for his senior season the guy that would have seen his minutes impacted the most is Theo, Justin to an extent but Theo would maybe be around Kenny Williams PT. I also think the PT that Luke was getting earlier would have maybe not been there because we would have likely went with JP at the 4 with either Justin or Theo at the wing for those times we saw Luke in.

Think back earlier this season, Theo was really struggling for several games but Roy kept going to him, doubt Roy could have done that had Jp been on roster. Glad now that Theo was given the time to play thru those earlier struggles because IMO he was a real difference maker in this ACCT, even if the stat sheet does not blow you away. I think the grit the kid plays with combined with that of Joel Berry really spread thru this team. The result IMO was a very special treat for UNC fans in that ACCT run and I really hope we are able to carry that with us to and thru this NCAAT, I suspect we not only can but will.

I started this thread, not to bash on JP, I wanted to discuss the human chess of player movement, how this guy in impacts this player that could not be and the effect that would have on the season over all. I am not sure the human chess moves last season had the best final effect, this season the moves just feel right and more natural.

 

[Archer2]

Agreed, Dave. And I don't see people bashing JP. His role was going to change and it probably wasn't going to be to his liking. He did the right think by leaving. I'm sure everyone joins me on hoping he gets called up and makes an NBA team.

You're right about Theo as well. It wasn't that long ago that some were questioning Roy for playing him as much as he was. But he's cut back on his TO's and has become one of our best passers. And he's becoming a defensive stopper. If he revamps his jumper and becomes more consistent, he can play at the next level.

 

[UNC&ME]

Brice stopped resisting coaching/instruction/support...slowly channeled emotions...opportunity knocked(Meeks out for games)..Brice flourished, his performance spoke more than his potential.....conversely, JP resisted-did not improve his game...every game would have been "an audition" for the scouts-IMO....besides it is better to have 2 ball handlers, a shooter(playing without the ball in his hands) and 2 posts...JP would have clogged up offense-more Berry has been excellent for overall chemistry-he is a leader, doubt JP could have handled that

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

...and here we go again .
Let's put this meme to rest once and for all:

1. Literally NO freshman PG is totally "ready" for the Carolina system (which puts more mental demands on the PG than any other system I know of. So "ready" is a relative term.

2. Every PG who has started in the system as a freshman has understandably struggled some early because of that. Kenny Smith started game-1 but had an adjustment period, Ty Lawson would have never started a single game as a frosh if Bobby Frasor hadn't blown a knee. Marcus Paige was brought in to be a back-up for a year but got thrown into the fire game-1 because of Butter leaving early. Hell, even the G.O.A.T. Phil Friggin Ford had his freshman moments (and he'll tell you so).

3. But here's the kicker: Whether it's Phil, The Jet, Ray, Ty or Butter, every one of the great PGs who started at some point in their freshman season got over their early bumps by playing through them. Joel Berry came in every bit as "ready" as any PG on that list, and ideally, given our personnel should have been given the keys early on. We most all know that Butter should have started the first game he ever played here but it took until Roy had finally seen enough of Larry Drew, and it happened at mid-season. Last season it took until Roy finally gave up on the JJ/JP experiment (and seeing how much more productive we were with two real Guards) to make the move to start JB, but the injury/illness pushed it to a point too late in the season to pull off.

The BEST news in all this is that JP (and I always had high hopes for him) has moved on and we have the team we have with the players getting the minutes they're getting.

So . . . You agree with what I said?

 

[gary-7]

So . . . You agree with what I said?

Um, no...