I just wanted to post this question...Who do you feel is the better player today? I'd say JJ but I haven't seen much Knox film?
JJ vs Knox
- Thread starter UNC Blue Hup
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Funny you bring this up. I was watching Knox tapes earlier since we are in his final 3 essentially. I immediately recognized some similarities-especially if you watch the form on his jumper-very similar to JJ. However he appears to have way more explosion once he gets to the rim. there were some plays where he did a euro step and I was expecting him to flip it up to the rim like JJ would do however he launched and threw down a powerful dunk.
Knox also has the JJ floater- and a few plays they looked almost identical. I have no clue if hes better than JJ now-Id say no- but he probably is more athletic from the little I saw. But There were times I felt I was watching a Jackson clone.
Knox also has the JJ floater- and a few plays they looked almost identical. I have no clue if hes better than JJ now-Id say no- but he probably is more athletic from the little I saw. But There were times I felt I was watching a Jackson clone.
Wasn't aware he goes to Tampa catholic. Pretty close to my neck of the woods. Maybe Ill go check him out when the season starts. Got to see Bradley in person last year.
Havne't seen much of Knox but what I have seen he is more explosive and physically just has more potential. He is as filled out as JJ now before entering college.
Who starts at SF if Justin leaves and Knox comes to Carolina?
What are the odds that Knox picks us if he thinks he's going to play 10 minutes a game backing up Theo?
Of course Theo may have a great season and leave early, too. But if that doesn't happen - he has a good year and is looking forward to starting at SF as a senior - how does that impact Knox?
Knox could, of course, slide to the 4 for more minutes - depending on who we sign for our front line. But we are told he doesn't want to do that.
What are the odds that Knox picks us if he thinks he's going to play 10 minutes a game backing up Theo?
Of course Theo may have a great season and leave early, too. But if that doesn't happen - he has a good year and is looking forward to starting at SF as a senior - how does that impact Knox?
Knox could, of course, slide to the 4 for more minutes - depending on who we sign for our front line. But we are told he doesn't want to do that.
TODAY, today JJ would be the better player but he should be considering JJ is going in to his Jr season of college ball and Knox has yet to be a freshman. But at the same stage, Knox was better because he is physically stronger as well as stronger with the ball than JJ was as a freshman.
Theo can slide to the 2 if necessary so there is no problem on that end. Additionally, JJ is the better player right now due to his experience in our system AND his general experience against college competition.
Nobody can say who has the most potential since that is subject to intangibles like player will and attitude!
Nobody can say who has the most potential since that is subject to intangibles like player will and attitude!
There are a lot of folks here who seem fairly strongly opposed to Theo at SG. I don't agree, but if they are right and he doesn't play much SG this year, how ready would he be to shift there as a senior? And who would he push aside to be there?
If we land PJ or another top-ranked big, and only Justin leaves early, we look something like this (I've pencilled in real names for our frosh, but those are just my guesses):
PG -- SR Berry - FR Felton
SG -- SO Woods - JR Williams - FR Platek
SF -- SR Pinson - SO Robinson - SO Rush
PF -- FR Washington - FR Brooks - JR Maye
C -- SO Bradley - FR Huffman
As the band wagon leader of those very very few that seem to not love the notion of Theo at the 2, I be glad to answer this! I don't want to see Theo shift to the 2 this coming season or the one after. If we get PJ he starts at the 4, pencil him in, use magic marker, or use a jack hammer! I am one of the very few that just does not buy our getting Knox and why, well it ain't cause I think JJ is coming back as a senior, it is because of Theo, who I strongly see as our starting wing for his senior season.
For the record, I would tweek the above by replacing Brooks with Stokes and I would maybe move Jalek to the starting 2 and 7th to the back up point.
Your tweaks are reasonable. We'll know better as time passes (because we'll know who we are getting and we'll see 7th in action). Several such shuffles are possible - as, for example, you are high on KW's future.
My concern, which you partly addressed but partly didn't is what happens to Theo if JJ doesn't leave and/or if Knox commits? Where does Theo fit in?
Part of my argument for giving Theo every chance to win the SG starting role this season is because I think that does 2 desirable things: 1) if he's good there, it means we have him on the floor for maximum minutes, which benefits the team (on the theory that the more minutes your best players play, the better the team is); and, 2) I think Theo's development has been somewhat retarded because he has played for 2 years without a clearly defined role that he can invest all his efforts into mastering. Everybody gets better and rises higher when they can focus intensely on one thing. But Theo has played SG, backup SF and even backup PF. Occasionally, he has even looked like he thought he was a PG for a few minutes at a stretch. It's hard to develop to your highest level at one thing when you are asked to do other things more than half the time.
Now it's true that Theo has been effective as a jack-of-all-trades. If he continues in that capacity, he'll be a candidate for ACC 6th man. But is that the best use of his talents and athleticism?
I think it is. Theo will have every opportunity to earn the starting SG spot. Whether he does or not is up to him. But I don't believe in trying to force a square peg into a round hole. If he is fairly consistent with his perimeter jumper, he is the natural starter there. If not, he's not, IMO. A shooting guard has to be able to shoot the perimeter jumper.
That's all I ask. As you say, it's up to him. But will he be given that shot? In my mind, he deserves to start in the pole position of the SG race. In other words, he should start there and the position should be his to lose. If he loses it, then he reverts to 6th man, spark-of-the-bench status, playing multiple positions. We know he's good at that. I just think he'll be better for us and for himself if he proves out at SG.
We all know what he needs to show to advance. Better shooting, better focus, a few other things. He needs to do those things no matter what his role is on the team. I just think that if he does those things, his best position is at SG (remember, this assumes his shooting improves).
The only problem with Theo starting at SG is who backs up at SF? If not Theo, then the likely choices are BRob or Luke - who may be too scrawny and too slow, respectively. Alternatively (and more likely) is that Theo plays 20 at SG and slides to SF for the other 10. That still lets him concentrate most on one job.
All this assumes Theo wants to play SG. If he goes to Roy and says he really wants to be that 6th man playing multiple positions, then I'm inclined to let him. That's already a good fit. I just don't think it give us our strongest team. Then again, I don't pull down the big bucks, so my opinion is worth what it costs.
Have a feeling theo will surprise(or not surprise in my case) a lot of people this season. Ton of potential and this is the first offseason hes been able to really develop. anyways this discussion is way off the beaten path of the original topic lol.
As soon as peeps get over the fact that the 2G USED to be called a shooting guard the better! If we now have Point forwards, scoring points, and lead guards, why can't we adjust our thinking about 2Gs?
UNC HAS 2 legitimate 3pt shooters :1 and 3; it doesn't need it from the 2.
JB:1
TP: 2
Knox: 3
PJ: 4
TB:5
Who could guard or score on this team?
UNC HAS 2 legitimate 3pt shooters :1 and 3; it doesn't need it from the 2.
JB:1
TP: 2
Knox: 3
PJ: 4
TB:5
Who could guard or score on this team?
Very astute. While the type of offensive contribution is the easy part to see, positions are driven at least as much by who a player can guard on defense.
I'm all for Theo Pinson starting at 2 for the next 2.
Want to make sure I say this, I am not a fan of Theo at the 2 but there is no doubt in my mind that Roy will give Theo, Justin, Kenny, 7th, BRob all the opportunity anyone could ask for to be a starter at the 2 or the 3 spots. When I drive my points I am speaking to who I think will win those position battles by ACC play time. I just feel we need solid jump shooting from the 2 spot for this particular team, other versions of UNC teams IMO it was not as critical as it will be for this one.
It is just my opinion but I do not think Theo will shoot well enough to give us the scoring I think we will need from the 2 and I don't think he beats Justin for the starter role at the 3, just IMO. But I see him as EXTREMELY valuable coming off the bench, was he not exactly that last season? Minutes is more important than who begins the game any way, Theo will get starter minutes, Theo is a vital part of this team and I am not suggesting anything other wise, all I am saying is I do not like his minutes at the 2 guard position, love him at the wing and the 4.
By all means give Theo every chance to win the starting 2 spot role, give Nate every chance as well, but give Kenny/7th/BRob just as much chance and lets see who best fits it for what this team is going to need. I just personally think one of those 3 will win the spot by ACC play or at least get the minutes that matter at the position.
Consider this, last 2 seasons, season before last our best jump shooter was our PG (Marcus) and we had a very weak shooting 2 guard in Tokoto and Justin at the wing did it work? Last season, Marcus moves to the 2, Berry emerges at the PG that can jump shoot, Justin at the wing, did that work? We go from 2 shooters in our back court to 3 and all the sudden we are in the natty game and actually we blew the competition away until we got the red hot shooting Villinova in the title game.
Go back and look, look to the seasons we have had a weak jump shooting 2, I would suggest the last time that worked was Roy's first natty where we had jackie at the 2. Now if we had Sean May, Marvin, McCants, and Jawad then cool, we just don't have that collection of big man scorers that takes the pressure off the need to score from the 2 in my honest opinion.
Pinson will start at the 4 and Knox at the 3 on offense
Vice versa on defense.
Welp, we'll see. I was going to say we'll see soon enough, but the season can't start soon enough for me.
The part of the equation that none of us knows (or if someone does, I haven't seen it mentioned) is whether Theo WANTS to play SG. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he likes the multiposition role he has played so far. Or maybe he's just waiting for Justin to leave so he can have the position he really wants.
And that latter question is why I keep asking what happens to Theo if Knox commits. Do we really think Knox will come here to play backup SF? Is Knox good enough to keep Theo from starting as SF?
Similarly, what happens to Theo if Justin comes back as a senior?
If Theo is going to play at the next level, I assume that will be as a shooting guard. Do you agree? Or is he big enough to play SF in the NBA? I ask because I don't watch much NBA and don't really know. But my point is that if he needs to be a SG to play in the NBA, then he needs to learn that position. He has 2 years to learn it. That should be plenty, but only if he actually gets to play it and master it.
Your argument seems to be that we are almost always a better team with more shooters among our guards and wings. Sounds right.
So let's look at the shooting stats for our returning players in those positions.
3-pt%
38.2 - Berry
32.1 - Britt
29.2 - Jackson
29.0 - Pinson
07.7 - Williams
2-pt%
77.8 - Williams
53.7 - Jackson
49.5 - Berry
48.8 - Pinson
43.1 - Britt
eFG%
53.0 - Berry
50.8 - Jackson
46.6 - Pinson
45.3 - Britt
38.6 - Williams
ORtg
122.2 - Berry
119.7 - Williams
119.0 - Jackson
109.4 - Pinson
107.5 - Britt
Obviously Berry and Jackson are pretty solid. While the rest are marginal - OK in some areas, weak in others. We shouldn't be reading too much into Kenny's numbers because he played so little, but I included him for completeness.
To achieve the kind of team you envision, Dave, not only does Justin have to improve his 3-pt shooting, but someone else has to get a good bit better. Or else one of our frosh has to start well.
Could happen, but isn't a given. And while the odds on choice (imo) to make that transition is Theo, there's no guarantee he will do so.
Great points all!
1. I believe we have the inside presence and scoring to take off the perimeter pressure. (Hicks (major contributor), Meeks (potentially major), TB to a lesser extent)
2. I believe that TP can showcase a refined Mid-range game
3. JB is established and JJ has the chops to be superb 3pt specialists.
4. I believe we have some excellent shooters to bring in off the bench when needed.
5. Marcus played 2 and was erratic shooting all year. (hate to type this)
6. If TP is the all around glue guy he has been, so be it! (its a proven formula)
7. Roy likes his perimeter players to be play-makers and all three fit the bill(JJ, TP, JB)
8. I feel someone will make this discussion moot with their play! (I hope it is TP, but it will be someone)
1. I believe we have the inside presence and scoring to take off the perimeter pressure. (Hicks (major contributor), Meeks (potentially major), TB to a lesser extent)
2. I believe that TP can showcase a refined Mid-range game
3. JB is established and JJ has the chops to be superb 3pt specialists.
4. I believe we have some excellent shooters to bring in off the bench when needed.
5. Marcus played 2 and was erratic shooting all year. (hate to type this)
6. If TP is the all around glue guy he has been, so be it! (its a proven formula)
7. Roy likes his perimeter players to be play-makers and all three fit the bill(JJ, TP, JB)
8. I feel someone will make this discussion moot with their play! (I hope it is TP, but it will be someone)
Now that is the kind of reply I love, lots of red meat on the bone to chew on!
First, in the shooting %, I have to kick out Kenny's stats just because I think the sample size is to small, just IMO. Now I strongly agree, Justin has to step his % up, he started really slow last season, improved as the season went on but needs to start stronger this coming season. I think at times he takes some jumpers that a lil more contested than I would like, shot selection is a key for him IMO. I think Britt is a lil better shooter than his 3pt % indicates and I think he is because he typically does take really good shots, a decent shooter taking good shots should be in the upper half of the 30% range at least.
Back to Justin, personally, I would like to see Justin maybe shoot a few less contested treys and drive and finish with that floater more, his efficiency jumps when you take away some of those trey misses. IN addition, Justin is a long wing, would love to see him maybe invert a little more and look to post up shorter wings deep in the paint. His trey shooting is solid when he has that extra split second to not have to rush it, when he rushes those treys he is not nearly as efficient with them, he tends to fall away a lil bit when he rushes it.
29.0 with poor form is the reason I struggle to see Theo at the 2 guard spot, nuff said. If that form can get better his % will jump strong but last I saw there was a looooooong way for him to go to get to where he would be a solid jump shooter.
In the Knox vs JJ debate, I confess I don't know enough about Knox to judge his intangibles. But here's an intangible that JJ has that we all saw in the Mickey D game when he was co-MVP: he has a nose for the ball.
True, that's been less obvious in his Carolina career to date - or else we'd see more rebounding from him - but I suspect that's more of a team style thing than because he lost his nose.
Another thing JJ does that rarely gets mentioned is move extremely well without the ball.
A third and final plus I'll mention is that JJ is very versatile. He can do it all. Good handle for a guy his size, very good passer, good court vision, does the little things, shows up all over the stat sheet.
Maybe Knox is a little bigger or more athletic but does he match JJ on those things?
Bottom line is that though I'd love to have Knox, if I had to chose only one, I'd rather have JJ.
True, that's been less obvious in his Carolina career to date - or else we'd see more rebounding from him - but I suspect that's more of a team style thing than because he lost his nose.
Another thing JJ does that rarely gets mentioned is move extremely well without the ball.
A third and final plus I'll mention is that JJ is very versatile. He can do it all. Good handle for a guy his size, very good passer, good court vision, does the little things, shows up all over the stat sheet.
Maybe Knox is a little bigger or more athletic but does he match JJ on those things?
Bottom line is that though I'd love to have Knox, if I had to chose only one, I'd rather have JJ.
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