Keep Hubert or fire him?

[NorCalTarheel]

...
Not just with Florida... I really notice it with Duke too....it is night and day the way these teams have better offensive strategy, lots of movement without the ball, lots of passing, screening ....WAY more than UNC.

And other teams that give way more defensive effort than the Heels.

I put this almost all on Hubs. At some point you have to have more of a strategy for the team than "try hard" which devolves into stand around, and watch a guy or two iso dribble and jack up a 3.... followed by matador defense, easily beaten on the other end.

So I noticed this this past weekend watching dook blow out its opponents. They had a key component on the other team in foul trouble and immediately attacked him over and over again until he had to go to the bench. I can't remember hubs ever doing that this season. I know it is a single nuance but man it helps to play a team without their best player. It seems like it is one of many nuances Hubert lacks.

 

[al would]

at this point, there are a lot of folks that believe he should be let go but honestly, should he be given another year to build a team, show some level of improvement that includes quality coaching and better player development? I still think his inability to keep or willingness to lose EC is a mistake.

I don't disagree with any of that but (one of) the things that does concern me most is that he has multiple 5* scholly players that he recruited out of HS that couldn't hit the portal fast enough when the season ended and upon recruitment hubby was singing all their praises about the high expectations of each and at the end of the day there may not be a single one of his HS recruits left to play at UNC next season. This has got to have some seriously bad optics to incoming players/recruits be they HS or portal. Why he would get a 5 yr. contract extension after this season is a head scratcher to me and apparently a lot of others.

 

[Heelicious]

Like Roy, KIng does some things he learned from Dean and some of just his on ideas. That is what you look for in a head coach, taking what they have leaned and building on it to fit in to today's game. How the game was played 60yrs ago is very different from the way it is played today so any system, even the Carolina way has to adapt to the current reality. Like our constitution, it is an ever evolving thing yet still hold immutable truths that should never change.

I think what you are more asking is does King follow a similar approach to the offensive and defensive sides of the ball rather than the Carolina Way. For example, the Carolina Way is not that UNC fast breaks as much as they can, that is an approach or you can call it a skeme, maybe even system. The Carolina way is more about what defines UNC like "play hard, play smart, play together", like UNC is family, we were family before family got cool, now everyone wants to think they are family. The Carolina way is NBA players coming up to that UNC rookie and letting him know, we family, what ever you need . It is things like Dean always being there for every one of his former players, from walk ons to MJ, a walk on looking for a job and Dean would makes calls even thou it had been 20yrs since that guy played for Dean.

The Carolina Way is like in a business proposal your first step is to set in stone your mission statement, the Carolina Way is the UNC mission statement, everything else is about how you achieve that mission.

There is a lot of discussion now about some of our former players saying some things publicly that Cadeau's family don't like. Some times the best thing family can give you is tough love, what you really need is not always what you want to hear and what Theo, Raymond, and Justin had to say was maybe not what Cadeau's family wanted to hear but it was exactly what Elliot needed to hear even if he is not yet mature enough to realize it.

Great post, @DSouthr . I agree with all of it, and am glad you added the last part about the Family which can be great and loving and supporting, AND it can also be one to hold you accountable, just like blood family. Meaning, if you are a part of the Carolina basketball family, when you put on that jersey and you represent the Family, Program, Team not just this year but the legend and the Program reputation over many years, you are expected to hold up that level of effort (play hard, smart, together) - and excellence. No slacking, no excuses. That same standard applies (or should apply) to the head coach AND each coach on the program.

Can these coaches answer honestly about what they have added to improve the basketball program under Hub? I don't see it.

 

[al would]

Can these coaches answer honestly about what they have added to improve the basketball program under Hub? I don't see it.

In no way shape or form that I can tell !!

 

[Heelicious]

Sort of feel like this whole thread is a waste. Hubert isnt going anywhere, they just extend his contract FFS.

I don't think the contract means that much these days. I'd bet easily over half the coaches that are fired each year are under contract for longer than the following year.

Most of the contracts likely have buyout clauses in them, unless the lawyers for the school / AD are complete imbeciles.

 

[Heelicious]

Good response overall but on this point the begged question is "how many years are enough?"

Dean struggled for 5. K struggled early, too. If Hubert is good this coming year, is that good enough? Will you think he has worked through his issues?

Suppose we are a Sweet 16 team with something like a 24-12 final record. Will you figure Hubert has turned the corner? If not, will you give him more years? Or has he been so disappointing that you'll need more than that?

Great point, WWJD. Serious, unloaded question: I wonder if in K or DES first 5 years (where they were starting from near rock bottom I assume) - did they show good progress along those 5 years of improving, turning the corner?

I don't see it with Hub. I won't say he's regressed, but I can't point to anything he's done as a coach that makes me thing he as a coach or the team overall is better, or on a better path for the program, than day / year 1 under Hub.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Agree 100%. I haven't sat down and thought through this for too long, but sometimes just passing time, I think about how they could institute an NIL cap, and that cap would be the same for all D1 teams...say $10-20 mil a year, and each team could spend it all on whichever players they wanted...all on one player, or spread it amongst several players. And likely this money wouldn't necessarily be hard to raise from donors.

Then - since the players are getting paid, once as a player you are getting NIL money, say as a freshman, you get that same amount of money each year you stay, but if you choose to transfer, you sit out a year, and you don't get that NIL money in your sit-out year.

This seems like it'd reward the players, and also since they have the NIL money incoming for any year they stay with the same school, and if they'd lose that and lose a year if transferring, that'd slow down the musical chairs.

I'm not sure how to approach the non - NIL players and their rights to transfer. I think as a coach / AD I'd split up the NIL money so all my very important scholarship contributors to the team received some NIL and were bound by those rules I spelled out above.

I like much of what you say but I don't want to see the requirement to sit out a year come back. Ditching that restriction on players is arguably one of the major benefits of the NIL revolution.

But I do understand your point about the crazy musical chairs we have now.

Here's how I'd modify your scheme to keep the right to transfer without sitting out, but also to slow the rampant school hopping.

Let's say you have a player worth $2 million. You split that into $1 million immediate, and $1 million conditional upon returning.

If the player decides to come back for his next year, he starts getting the conditional part, plus the unconditional part for his 2nd year.

If the player decides to jump ship, he's free to do that, but he forfeits the conditional $1 million.

If, on the other hand, his team pushes him out, he gets to leave and also gets the $1 million conditional part.

What do you think?

 

[NathanFielder]

So I noticed this this past weekend watching dook blow out its opponents. They had a key component on the other team in foul trouble and immediately attacked him over and over again until he had to go to the bench. I can't remember hubs ever doing that this season. I know it is a single nuance but man it helps to play a team without their best player. It seems like it is one of many nuances Hubert lacks.

This is a problem that plagues college basketball. College basketball coaches are more control oriented IMO and they like having control of every dribble. The elite ones can handle that control. Danny Hurley ran more set plays than basically anyone last year. He had a loaded team and playbook and mind to execute that. But in large, I think college coaches enjoy having control of every dribble.

Idk if Hubert is necessarily like that. But a lot of college coaches are.

 

[Heelicious]

I like much of what you say but I don't want to see the requirement to sit out a year come back. Ditching that restriction on players is arguably one of the major benefits of the NIL revolution.

But I do understand your point about the crazy musical chairs we have now.

Here's how I'd modify your scheme to keep the right to transfer without sitting out, but also to slow the rampant school hopping.

Let's say you have a player worth $2 million. You split that into $1 million immediate, and $1 million conditional upon returning.

If the player decides to come back for his next year, he starts getting the conditional part, plus the unconditional part for his 2nd year.

If the player decides to jump ship, he's free to do that, but he forfeits the conditional $1 million.

If, on the other hand, his team pushes him out, he gets to leave and also gets the $1 million conditional part.

What do you think?

Excellent! Do you have the NCAA phone number? They could hire you as a consultant.

Seriously - this is stuff we banged out in 10 minutes. The amount of money the PTB / brain wizards at NCAA get paid, and they can't think of a solution that is fair to all parties, being closer to it than anyone else for years, is criminal.

I mean - there are some (IMO) geniuses with great history in college sports, connected to all levels (high school, college, summer leagues, pros).... that are willing to advise for the good of the game... WHY tf won't they take them up on this offer?

Off of top of head, I am thinking:
college bb: Roy, K, Jay Wright, Bennet (UVA), Larranaga (MIA)
college fb: Saban who is the GOAT and understands all aspects for all parties better than anyone, and at this point has the players interests in mind more than anything. I'm sure he could come up with some names to help him.

But maybe I am super naive, and the people that get rich off the current system as is, care nothing about the kids, or the coaches, the fans, the quality of the product. All that matters to them is maximizing their $ cut as an agent. Like so much in life, its just about maximizing personal financial gain, integrity or character or personal relationships or impacts on others be damned

 

[Heelicious]

I like much of what you say but I don't want to see the requirement to sit out a year come back. Ditching that restriction on players is arguably one of the major benefits of the NIL revolution.

But I do understand your point about the crazy musical chairs we have now.

Here's how I'd modify your scheme to keep the right to transfer without sitting out, but also to slow the rampant school hopping.

Let's say you have a player worth $2 million. You split that into $1 million immediate, and $1 million conditional upon returning.

If the player decides to come back for his next year, he starts getting the conditional part, plus the unconditional part for his 2nd year.

If the player decides to jump ship, he's free to do that, but he forfeits the conditional $1 million.

If, on the other hand, his team pushes him out, he gets to leave and also gets the $1 million conditional part.

What do you think?

One other thing WWJD - I don't know what you do (did?) for a career. I am just recently retired from a corporate world job (Finance SVP at a bank).
A decent part of my compensation was stock grants, structured similar to what you said above, so its a great idea...."vesting".... you get stock grants on a certain date, but they are only granted to you (vested) 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 if you stay in the company for 1, 2, 3 years after grant date. A real incentive to stay at your company, or give up that deferred compensation.

I like your idea a lot.

 

[DSouthr]

What I would do to fix this mess is first the NIL, there has to be a cap, no way around it, what has been proposed I think is around 23 million a year. All commercial deals outisde of NIL would need to be declared and steps taken to insure they are not just work arounds of the team NIL cap. If a team is found violating the team cap then their cap is reduced to 15 million first violation, to 10 on a second, that would stop the violators. Next, I would make the NIL pay outs game checks with an initial signing bonus with every player on every team getting NIL, some just get more than others.

On the transfer portal, this one is easy, just go back to allowing a 1 time transfer PERIOD, no exceptions. That as well means the school can not boot a kid unless it is for off the court issues.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

On the transfer portal, this one is easy, just go back to allowing a 1 time transfer PERIOD, no exceptions.

That cat is out of the bag. Or cow out of the barn. Or whatever.

Who's going to agree to that? Who's going to enforce it?

Lawyers will love it, though.

 

[big_deez]

Agree 100%. I haven't sat down and thought through this for too long, but sometimes just passing time, I think about how they could institute an NIL cap, and that cap would be the same for all D1 teams...say $10-20 mil a year, and each team could spend it all on whichever players they wanted...all on one player, or spread it amongst several players. And likely this money wouldn't necessarily be hard to raise from donors.

Then - since the players are getting paid, once as a player you are getting NIL money, say as a freshman, you get that same amount of money each year you stay, but if you choose to transfer, you sit out a year, and you don't get that NIL money in your sit-out year.

This seems like it'd reward the players, and also since they have the NIL money incoming for any year they stay with the same school, and if they'd lose that and lose a year if transferring, that'd slow down the musical chairs.

I'm not sure how to approach the non - NIL players and their rights to transfer. I think as a coach / AD I'd split up the NIL money so all my very important scholarship contributors to the team received some NIL and were bound by those rules I spelled out above.

Great comments, looks like you are on track to solve this NIL chaos lol. I'd like to add to your proposed solutions. Possibly adding terms to these contracts, 2 or 3 years maybe? Create more commitments from both sides. Performance incentives and bonuses could also help. Man you are right, something has to be done.

 

[big_deez]

I don't disagree with any of that but (one of) the things that does concern me most is that he has multiple 5* scholly players that he recruited out of HS that couldn't hit the portal fast enough when the season ended and upon recruitment hubby was singing all their praises about the high expectations of each and at the end of the day there may not be a single one of his HS recruits left to play at UNC next season. This has got to have some seriously bad optics to incoming players/recruits be they HS or portal. Why he would get a 5 yr. contract extension after this season is a head scratcher to me and apparently a lot of others.

I agree, great points. The skill leaving and not looking back is a problem and the lack of player development is definitely a turnoff, great reasons for them to pass

 

[Spaceytoyz]

It just hurts the points get left on the table through not drawing up dead ball plays are the few points they were losing by

The Stanford game comes to mind where their coach drew that same play up 3 times for buckets with nothing at our end

Then he had a great play for the final shot

They were a 14.5 Dog in that game and just flat out coached his way to victory

I’ve not seen that type of Coaching from Hubert

 

[Spaceytoyz]

He surely needs a portal commitment in the next few days and if he really finds himself not being able to do that he may just need to do the right thing and step down

And I don’t mean a portal guy from Elon

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

hubby was singing all their praises about the high expectations of each

I think that most of us caught on pretty quickly that Hubert was blowing a lot of smoke. I'm not saying he shouldn't praise his kids; he should. But the praise should be realistic and he shouldn't come across like a con man trying to sell a bill of goods.

 

[sctarheel30]

Dook hasn’t had many close games.. any coach could win with that roster..

Let’s not get carried away here

 

[sctarheel30]

I would say his job depends on how the portal goes and so far not too good

 

[JimmyinVA]

...the praise should be realistic and he shouldn't come across like a con man trying to sell a bill of goods.

good point. it doesn't help players' confidence to get praise they didn't earn.

 

[NathanFielder]

What I would do to fix this mess is first the NIL, there has to be a cap, no way around it, what has been proposed I think is around 23 million a year. All commercial deals outisde of NIL would need to be declared and steps taken to insure they are not just work arounds of the team NIL cap. If a team is found violating the team cap then their cap is reduced to 15 million first violation, to 10 on a second, that would stop the violators. Next, I would make the NIL pay outs game checks with an initial signing bonus with every player on every team getting NIL, some just get more than others.

On the transfer portal, this one is easy, just go back to allowing a 1 time transfer PERIOD, no exceptions. That as well means the school can not boot a kid unless it is for off the court issues.

Why not just make the players employees and have to sign contracts to 1, 2 or 3 years with whatever optional years the parties agree to? This way, you can structure your roster how you want to. You can load up on 1 year deals and do this portal stuff every year. You can build it more around 3 year guys too. The NCAA would have to become a registered business in some regard, but that's the easiest way they can put some regulations in.

Btw, the NCAA isn't going to see much wrong with all four #1 seeds making the Final Four. That's going to get a huge number and bring in major dollars to the NCAA. So I''m not sure the NCAA will see a reason for a massive change.

I'm personally ok if a kid transfers multiple times. But after the first transfer, they have to sit a year while placing in some rule that you can only have 5 years in your college career, barring injury or hardship.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I'm personally ok if a kid transfers multiple times. But after the first transfer, they have to sit a year while placing in some rule that you can only have 5 years in your college career, barring injury or hardship.

Why only penalties on the players? Why not on the schools they flee?

If a kid needs to leave to get a starting slot, more PT, more money, or better development, why is it just his fault?

I'm good with having no penalties.

 

[NathanFielder]

Why only penalties on the players? Why not on the schools they flee?

If a kid needs to leave to get a starting slot, more PT, more money, or better development, why is it just his fault?

I'm good with having no penalties.

By your example, you're rewarding a player since he isn't good enough to start on his current team to go somewhere else where he can start.

I think there should be exceptions to the 1 year sitting out for players that transfer more than once. For instance, if a coach leaves, then that rule no longer applies.

But this is a business. And once the NCAA determines that they are a business, they're going to make rules that are best for their business.

I don't care too much about players transferring. But it probably isn't sustainable for college basketball to function this way. For college sports itself, they're going to have to place some rules and regulations.

 

[Geth]

That Hubert's presence as coach with his unimpressive staff is essentially a hindrance to young promising players transferring here is to me cause in and of it self for termination or HD seeing the writing on his beloved carolina blue wall and resigning.

 

[DSouthr]

So I noticed this this past weekend watching dook blow out its opponents. They had a key component on the other team in foul trouble and immediately attacked him over and over again until he had to go to the bench. I can't remember hubs ever doing that this season. I know it is a single nuance but man it helps to play a team without their best player. It seems like it is one of many nuances Hubert lacks.

"He already has 2 fouls, attack him, make him pickup that 3rd one, wiht several colorful words mixed in for flavor)" If you only knew how darn many times I screamed that this past season, my neighbors thought I was needing a straight jacket, at times maybe I did ! LOL

 

[NorCalTarheel]

"He already has 2 fouls, attack him, make him pickup that 3rd one, wiht several colorful words mixed in for flavor)" If you only knew how darn many times I screamed that this past season, my neighbors thought I was needing a straight jacket, at times maybe I did ! LOL

LOL. If we lived anywhere close to one another, the neighbors in between us would have heard it in stereo!

The part that is not so funny is that we never seem to do so. It does not seem like an expert level nuance of coaching to attack another player with foul trouble. It's worth at least a couple of possessions to try to get that player off the floor, especially if they are any good.

I sincerely hope there is some self-scouting of our coaching staff going on. Roy might be a good candidate. Heck, Mark turgeon, whose son goes to UNC might be a great resource for that as well!

 

[DSouthr]

Know what is interesting, if Hubert does not make it past next season, Roy Williams would have had 2 of his former assistant coaches fail as UNC head coach? Did Roy just do a poor job of preparing his assistants for a power head coaching gig?

 

[DSouthr]

LOL. If we lived anywhere close to one another, the neighbors in between us would have heard it in stereo!

The part that is not so funny is that we never seem to do so. It does not seem like an expert level nuance of coaching to attack another player with foul trouble. It's worth at least a couple of possessions to try to get that player off the floor, especially if they are any good.

I sincerely hope there is some self-scouting of our coaching staff going on. Roy might be a good candidate. Heck, Mark turgeon, whose son goes to UNC might be a great resource for that as well!

Cally, man, if you and I can joke about it here on a message board you just have to wonder why Hubert didn't use this tactic, it is as well known as hands down man down, it is basketball 101? LOL

 

[notashelbyfan]

The problem is when he's bad he is really bad. Take this season for example when next year come around he can improve alot and it still will be a below average season for what it should be for Carolina standards.

If the 2nd and 4th seasons were not enough to get him fire what is?

The mark of a great coach is a guy who can win and over achieve with bad teams, average teams, and great teams. Hubert can only some what hold pace with a team that is better than average, and he is well below average with a somewhat flawed team.

Im afraid we are stuck with him for 10 years or more and unless he goes under .500 he will stay.