Do not get me wrong, he is a top 10 college basketball coach of all time and a Hall of Famer. But he is still overrated. While he has over 1000 wins, any great coach who stayed in college basketball that long and coached in this era of extra games could have won that many. Roy would have had more wins if he had been a head coach as long, and so would Dean. As for the national titles K has won, he got several lucky breaks that inflated that number. He got lucky in 2010 and 2015. Dean and Roy got unlucky several times. If a few scores had gone their way, both Dean and Roy would have had as many titles as K. Also, K failed to have an undefeated season in his career. As for the Olympics, yes, K turned the national team around. However, the US has the most talented basketball players in the world. Any decent coach could have led them to Olympic gold. The real reason K is so loved outside of Duke is because of the media's hype of him. Without that hype, he would rightfully receive accolades as a Hall of Fame coach, but definitely not the greatest ever. If he was really the greatest ever, he should have won at least 5 titles in a row. In conclusion, he is a Hall of Fame coach who has earned respect, but he is overrated.
Mike Krzyzewski is overrated
- Thread starter mjrocks23
- Start date
He is a Hall Of Fame coach that has actually done more harm to the game than he's done good. Some of the tactics and tricks he's taught, ie: the flop, has done immeasurable harm to the game that used to be so much fun to watch. I can't think of a single thing he's done that has contributed a positive aspect to the college game. He is the winningest coach ever, but a long, long ways from ever being the best.
Wait a minute now I’ve heard all about the good he has done for the game like…………just give me a second and I’ll list them.
Ok that’s all I have.
1986 to 2010 = top 3 coach all time, maybe top 2.
2010 to present = top 10 coach all time, at best.
2010 to present = top 10 coach all time, at best.
People especially dook fans believe he is the GOAT since he has the most wins but give me a break
And has made it all about him. The coach K tour
I think i would put him on the mt rushmore of college coaches with dean, rupp, and wooden
Had this discussion - very briefly - with a dook friend. I asked him to tell me how K innovated the game. Name one thing he did that literally changed the game. A minute of awkward silence followed. I then rattled off the four corners...the huddle at the foul line...pointing out the assist guy...the "Blue Team"...the tired signal...maybe the biggest - tracking stats per possession...it was a walk-over.
K's credentials are incredible, he is also very unpopular along with Duke in general.
K is born and bred in Chicago, high school basketball included. There was a debate on Chicago sports radio if K is claimed as part of Chicago's basketball legacy by the city. They even did the daily poll question on just that.
It was a landslide, 81% said they do not claim K as Chicago. Not only no love, but a strong distaste for him in his own hometown.
K is born and bred in Chicago, high school basketball included. There was a debate on Chicago sports radio if K is claimed as part of Chicago's basketball legacy by the city. They even did the daily poll question on just that.
It was a landslide, 81% said they do not claim K as Chicago. Not only no love, but a strong distaste for him in his own hometown.
He’s not an innovator by any stretch.
As @heelmanwilm said he is on the Mt Rushmore though. Can’t deny his success.
I’d still take Dean and Roy.
As @heelmanwilm said he is on the Mt Rushmore though. Can’t deny his success.
I’d still take Dean and Roy.
His innovations are noteworthy, as the rat and his douchewads have perfected the art of the...
- flop
- 3 pointer leg kick
- head whip
- arm bars
- hand checks
- all 5 guys foul at once technique, thoroughly confusing the refs, who swallow their whistles
- F bombing the refs into submission
Let's not forget his introduction of the art of the 24 hour indefinite suspension.
I just wanted to end his career. Sounds like you guys are planning on having him erased from the history books.
I'm all in...
I'm all in...
Coach K is a good coach no doubt, but I feel like he’s been awfully lucky at different stages throughout his career.
First of all, he got lucky that within his first couple years at duke, he signed the #1 recruiting class in the nation. This was the class with Dawkins and Bilas. I don’t know how many #1 classes Dean Smith signed but I’m sure he didn’t do it that quick without first earning reputation as a good coach. I’d also be willing to bet that K had way more #1 recruiting in his time at duke than Carolina ever did with Dean and Roy. This shows that K had TONS of talent which contradicts what most people seem to think which is that K did more with less, even in the earlier years.
Secondly, even with that much talent in his earlier years, K didn’t lose a single player early to the NBA until 1999. That’s nearly 20 years with every single player he signed staying a full 4 years. Some might say yeah but it wasn’t as prevalent back then. Well, yeah somewhat, but all other programs were losing players early years and years before that.
UNC alone lost Worthy, Jordan, Reid, Stackhouse, Wallace, Mcinnis, Carter and Jamison (maybe more not sure) before K had ANYONE leave with eligibility remaining. It may not seem like a big deal now, but it was back then and helped K tremendously.
My third point is similar to #2 in regards to keeping players around. K has won 5 championships which everyone is aware of, but what most people may find surprising is that K has only lost 3 players early from those 5 championships. Those being jones, Winslow, and Okafor. No other championship team lost anyone early. The 100% helped k continue some level of continuity from year to year. He was able to avoid what happened to Roy in 2006 ( which wasn’t too bad), 2010 (really bad) and somewhat in 2018. Roy lost guys early from every championship team he had.
My 4th point about k being somewhat “lucky” comes from the fact that once his players eventually did start leaving early was when his monster recruiting really took over. When duke(finally) and everyone else we’re losing more and more players early to the NBA, duke was then able to conveniently get exactly what was needed and able to sign recruiting classes that were the some of the best ever. I’m willing to bet that just about every season from around 2011 or so that duke recruiting classes have ranked way ahead of UNCs. But the results on the court head to head and nationally have been closer than most people across the country realize.
First of all, he got lucky that within his first couple years at duke, he signed the #1 recruiting class in the nation. This was the class with Dawkins and Bilas. I don’t know how many #1 classes Dean Smith signed but I’m sure he didn’t do it that quick without first earning reputation as a good coach. I’d also be willing to bet that K had way more #1 recruiting in his time at duke than Carolina ever did with Dean and Roy. This shows that K had TONS of talent which contradicts what most people seem to think which is that K did more with less, even in the earlier years.
Secondly, even with that much talent in his earlier years, K didn’t lose a single player early to the NBA until 1999. That’s nearly 20 years with every single player he signed staying a full 4 years. Some might say yeah but it wasn’t as prevalent back then. Well, yeah somewhat, but all other programs were losing players early years and years before that.
UNC alone lost Worthy, Jordan, Reid, Stackhouse, Wallace, Mcinnis, Carter and Jamison (maybe more not sure) before K had ANYONE leave with eligibility remaining. It may not seem like a big deal now, but it was back then and helped K tremendously.
My third point is similar to #2 in regards to keeping players around. K has won 5 championships which everyone is aware of, but what most people may find surprising is that K has only lost 3 players early from those 5 championships. Those being jones, Winslow, and Okafor. No other championship team lost anyone early. The 100% helped k continue some level of continuity from year to year. He was able to avoid what happened to Roy in 2006 ( which wasn’t too bad), 2010 (really bad) and somewhat in 2018. Roy lost guys early from every championship team he had.
My 4th point about k being somewhat “lucky” comes from the fact that once his players eventually did start leaving early was when his monster recruiting really took over. When duke(finally) and everyone else we’re losing more and more players early to the NBA, duke was then able to conveniently get exactly what was needed and able to sign recruiting classes that were the some of the best ever. I’m willing to bet that just about every season from around 2011 or so that duke recruiting classes have ranked way ahead of UNCs. But the results on the court head to head and nationally have been closer than most people across the country realize.
I would also add the extended tour with Team USA to the list of things that helped k. He could parlay that NBA (and Nike) relationship to really sell recruits when the one-and-done was becoming the rage. It's not a coincidence that dook's recruiting turned around about the same time USA was dominating the Olympics with the cream of the NBA and uk had fallen out of favor with Nike.
k-rat is the first (and only?) coach to make working the refs a key part of his game plan. during most time outs he's berating and bullying refs instead of coaching his team. disgusting, but successful.
Well, one thing I disagree with is that getting a #1 recruiting class is luck. Recruiting is the lifeblood of a college coach. Getting his Dawkins class early on without a built coaching cache would be an argument for his greatness, not a knock against it.
I also disagree that he is the first or even anywhere near the first to work refs as a primary part of a game plan. Sheesh, he did work under Bobby Knight. He does it, and it is very common. Dean Smith was always "accused" of being a master ref worker.
I also disagree that he is the first or even anywhere near the first to work refs as a primary part of a game plan. Sheesh, he did work under Bobby Knight. He does it, and it is very common. Dean Smith was always "accused" of being a master ref worker.
Last edited:
I don’t care if he’s over or under rated. He just is a scumbag who I will be happy not to view his antics any longer
yeah i stopped to think about this last week during their TT game. it's going to be wondefully odd to not see him on their bench. and i'm very curious to see how ScheyerFace does under the gun. the camera has caught him a few times this season with bigtime 'deer in the headlights' look on his face. i'm willing to wager that we wont see THAT first year head coach in the 2023 Final Four
I have a LOT to say about K as a coach, going to wait till after this season to say it but he is far from being the GOAT...
Even though I can't stand him, just because he is at Duke, have to give the guy his props. As far as a GOAT? Depends on the circumstances and there are a lot of folks in that conversation. As far as a pure basketball coach, I don't think I have ever seen better than McKillop at Davidson. But he is at Davidson so that limits his visibility. But believe it, or not, few of these coaches are the geniuses some like to make them out to be. Nor are they blooming idiots. It all is about recruiting. You could be the greatest coach, and leader, the world has ever seen. But if you don't have the talent, it won't matter
It really didn't hurt his recruiting to have ESPN touting him every two seconds. I wish the NCAA would impose a rule that active coaches can not participate in extended documentaries about them, or their teams. ESPN's "the Coach" (or whatever it was called) was just an extended show about how K is everything a recruit could want. I understand covering coaches, players, and schools for news purposes. I don't even mind 30x30s on specific teams with still active coaches, or on their season, but the coaches should not be allowed to partake. It confers a massive unfair advantage to that program and ESPN did everything under the sun to help Duke land top players.
Don't get me wrong, KU, UNC, etc. all get benefits not reserved for non-blue bloods, but the difference between how Duke was treated and everyone else was appalling.
Don't get me wrong, KU, UNC, etc. all get benefits not reserved for non-blue bloods, but the difference between how Duke was treated and everyone else was appalling.
I seldom wax nostalgic about my trash once I take the can out to the curb; I feel the same way about the rat lord!
I can't wait for the him to exit the stage, but I fear he is too ego driven to actually fade into the background. Face will be the first step in puke returning to the middle of the pack and hopefully, we will get back to the days when Moo was our principal rival!
I can't wait for the him to exit the stage, but I fear he is too ego driven to actually fade into the background. Face will be the first step in puke returning to the middle of the pack and hopefully, we will get back to the days when Moo was our principal rival!
K rant I have to get off my chest!
Now that his career is over I have to admit, K was a great coach and no matter how much we hate him there should as well be at least that as easy to say. In the 90s and in to the 2000's he was one of the best coaches in the game, not the GOAT but darn well better than most.
Now it sure helped that he was able to bring in top shelf talent. When you can bring in talents like Gene Banks, Laettner, Grant Hill and coach them for 4years you can't help but have some really good teams. I think he was a great coach that wanted to hold the title of greatest coach and that was IMO his fatal flaw. He felt like he needed an extra edge, so much so that he taught his teams to skirt the rules, the jersey grab was his staple, hey everyone grab a jersey at the same time and the refs won't know who to call for a foul? And oh the flops, amazing thing was their should have been a degree in drama for his players because they sure were good at acting like they had just been shot on cue. He didn't need to do those things, he was a good enough coach and had good enough talent that he did not have to resort to those dirty tactics, shameful that he did.
In his quest to be known as the greatest, IMO he made a critical mistake, he saw Kalipari using the 1&D model to attract the best talents in the high school ranks and felt he could be like John Wooden by getting the best players. Just like Wooden, Just like Kalipari, he didn't care what it took to get those players to commit to duke. He seemed to feel to beat kalipari for those recruits he had to be dirtier than kalipari so he totally committed to the 1&D nonsense by hook and by crook.
Yeah, he got 1 natty out of it, with a lot of help from the seeding committee. But when he went to that 1&D model he went from being a great coach to a good coach. His teams no longer defended was the passion they used to, those star players didn't do defense, it was offense that was going to take them to the NBA.
To put some separation between his teams and Ky, he jumped on as our Olympic head coach, at really the perfect time. The best NBA players had not been playing for our Olympic teams, they sat and watched as our Olympic teams slipped and it embarrassed them so as a collective, the very best we had in the NBA decided to put a stop to it and signed up. Frankly, there are posters on this board that could have coached the Olympic team to gold when the very best players on the planet played for that team. Bu K bathed ion the glory as if he were the greatest coach ever, as if he had done something no other coach could have? To make things even worse, he signs up for the gig again with yet again, commitments from the very best of the best in the NBA to play for him.
K used that Olympic glory for all it was worth, he bathed in it and he wove those Olympic tales for all those recruits and in the end did exactly what he wanted, got separation between he and kalipari, won a crap load of games made possible by having the ability to out talent opponents. Sports media, led by ESPN, eat that up, problem was they won a ton of regular season games with 1&D guys leading the way but from the time he committed to the 1&D till his last day as a coach, he won 1 single natty, only 1? Oh he put a ton of guys in to the NBA, who wouldn't if they got at least 2 of the top 10 players every single year, have the best recruiting classes nearly every year, on years he did not have the best class he was top 3 at worst. So why only 1 title in the 1&D era for duke?
Duke no longer defended like they used to, they were all about scoring but defensively they were not nearly what they once were. But, you don't expect freshmen to defend like seniors and you sure don't expect 5star guys that know their future is scoring points in the NBA to worry that much about defending. Why, if you can win most of your regular season games by 20+? The fatal flaw, K relied way to much on talent and not enough about player or team development. It became about instant fixes, 1 and done mercenaries, what was hard to find was a senior starter for duke. Having to replace all those 1&D guys every season he had the built in PT to offer, he had guys like Capel doing his back room dirty work for him, and he had ESPN spouting his glory at every op. He treated duke like it was the Olympic team, he got the best players money could buy as ESPN and the NCAA looked the other way.
So he went from great coach to good coach to dirty coach all in that same duke career and again I say he did not have to do that, he could have remained a great coach by doing those things he did when he was a great coach, when he coached guys like Grant Hill and Laettner. But he felt he could cheat and have an even better hand and in doing so he tarnished any legacy he may have wanted. He hid behind that phony private school nonsense to the NCAA and tarnished a once great reputation of duke as an academic institution. And all the cussing on national TV, all the antics, all the working the refs, all the world ends if you call a foul on duke, all the they are killing my poor innocent kids? LOL
Duke fans bought in to the phony nonsense, even gave themselves a bit of the spot light tagging themselves as the crazies, it was just as phony (cheer sheets, really, you not smart enough to cheer for duke without a cheat sheet) don't think I have ever met a Tar Heel fan that needed a cheat sheet just to cheer for the Tar Heels? Amazing wasn't it, duke plays a home game on TV and the camera angles seem to make that little gym they play in look so much bigger! But like everything else having to do with that duke program under k, it was as phony as a $3 bill but that sure didn't keep them from trying to cash it at every possible opportunity.
LOL at anyone that considers K as the GOAT, he was more the south end of a north bound goat. It was poetry, sheer poetry that K watched his last game in front of those cameron idiots be a loss to UNC, it was sheer poetry again as K watched his career end at the hands of our UNC Tar Heels, he wanted to be the goat and ended up getting RAMS horns up his butt! JUSTICE !!!
Now that his career is over I have to admit, K was a great coach and no matter how much we hate him there should as well be at least that as easy to say. In the 90s and in to the 2000's he was one of the best coaches in the game, not the GOAT but darn well better than most.
Now it sure helped that he was able to bring in top shelf talent. When you can bring in talents like Gene Banks, Laettner, Grant Hill and coach them for 4years you can't help but have some really good teams. I think he was a great coach that wanted to hold the title of greatest coach and that was IMO his fatal flaw. He felt like he needed an extra edge, so much so that he taught his teams to skirt the rules, the jersey grab was his staple, hey everyone grab a jersey at the same time and the refs won't know who to call for a foul? And oh the flops, amazing thing was their should have been a degree in drama for his players because they sure were good at acting like they had just been shot on cue. He didn't need to do those things, he was a good enough coach and had good enough talent that he did not have to resort to those dirty tactics, shameful that he did.
In his quest to be known as the greatest, IMO he made a critical mistake, he saw Kalipari using the 1&D model to attract the best talents in the high school ranks and felt he could be like John Wooden by getting the best players. Just like Wooden, Just like Kalipari, he didn't care what it took to get those players to commit to duke. He seemed to feel to beat kalipari for those recruits he had to be dirtier than kalipari so he totally committed to the 1&D nonsense by hook and by crook.
Yeah, he got 1 natty out of it, with a lot of help from the seeding committee. But when he went to that 1&D model he went from being a great coach to a good coach. His teams no longer defended was the passion they used to, those star players didn't do defense, it was offense that was going to take them to the NBA.
To put some separation between his teams and Ky, he jumped on as our Olympic head coach, at really the perfect time. The best NBA players had not been playing for our Olympic teams, they sat and watched as our Olympic teams slipped and it embarrassed them so as a collective, the very best we had in the NBA decided to put a stop to it and signed up. Frankly, there are posters on this board that could have coached the Olympic team to gold when the very best players on the planet played for that team. Bu K bathed ion the glory as if he were the greatest coach ever, as if he had done something no other coach could have? To make things even worse, he signs up for the gig again with yet again, commitments from the very best of the best in the NBA to play for him.
K used that Olympic glory for all it was worth, he bathed in it and he wove those Olympic tales for all those recruits and in the end did exactly what he wanted, got separation between he and kalipari, won a crap load of games made possible by having the ability to out talent opponents. Sports media, led by ESPN, eat that up, problem was they won a ton of regular season games with 1&D guys leading the way but from the time he committed to the 1&D till his last day as a coach, he won 1 single natty, only 1? Oh he put a ton of guys in to the NBA, who wouldn't if they got at least 2 of the top 10 players every single year, have the best recruiting classes nearly every year, on years he did not have the best class he was top 3 at worst. So why only 1 title in the 1&D era for duke?
Duke no longer defended like they used to, they were all about scoring but defensively they were not nearly what they once were. But, you don't expect freshmen to defend like seniors and you sure don't expect 5star guys that know their future is scoring points in the NBA to worry that much about defending. Why, if you can win most of your regular season games by 20+? The fatal flaw, K relied way to much on talent and not enough about player or team development. It became about instant fixes, 1 and done mercenaries, what was hard to find was a senior starter for duke. Having to replace all those 1&D guys every season he had the built in PT to offer, he had guys like Capel doing his back room dirty work for him, and he had ESPN spouting his glory at every op. He treated duke like it was the Olympic team, he got the best players money could buy as ESPN and the NCAA looked the other way.
So he went from great coach to good coach to dirty coach all in that same duke career and again I say he did not have to do that, he could have remained a great coach by doing those things he did when he was a great coach, when he coached guys like Grant Hill and Laettner. But he felt he could cheat and have an even better hand and in doing so he tarnished any legacy he may have wanted. He hid behind that phony private school nonsense to the NCAA and tarnished a once great reputation of duke as an academic institution. And all the cussing on national TV, all the antics, all the working the refs, all the world ends if you call a foul on duke, all the they are killing my poor innocent kids? LOL
Duke fans bought in to the phony nonsense, even gave themselves a bit of the spot light tagging themselves as the crazies, it was just as phony (cheer sheets, really, you not smart enough to cheer for duke without a cheat sheet) don't think I have ever met a Tar Heel fan that needed a cheat sheet just to cheer for the Tar Heels? Amazing wasn't it, duke plays a home game on TV and the camera angles seem to make that little gym they play in look so much bigger! But like everything else having to do with that duke program under k, it was as phony as a $3 bill but that sure didn't keep them from trying to cash it at every possible opportunity.
LOL at anyone that considers K as the GOAT, he was more the south end of a north bound goat. It was poetry, sheer poetry that K watched his last game in front of those cameron idiots be a loss to UNC, it was sheer poetry again as K watched his career end at the hands of our UNC Tar Heels, he wanted to be the goat and ended up getting RAMS horns up his butt! JUSTICE !!!
Was that the short version or the long one? 😉
DSouthr, sir. Thanks for the epic rant, you hit almost every possible talking point in that pile-on.
I will add one more > COACH NO ONE DID LESS WITH MORE IN THE LAST DECADE padded his stats
with the cream-puffiest OOC schedule of patsies to walk through the doors of Hansbrough Indoor
Stadium.
Sweet Justice, Karma, call it what you will. As he reflects on his myriad mythic accomplishments
in his own mind, it all comes back to this. We ruined his glorious retirement celebration
NOT ONCE, BUT FREAKING TWICE. Chew on that, Mike and Mickie.
I will add one more > COACH NO ONE DID LESS WITH MORE IN THE LAST DECADE padded his stats
with the cream-puffiest OOC schedule of patsies to walk through the doors of Hansbrough Indoor
Stadium.
Sweet Justice, Karma, call it what you will. As he reflects on his myriad mythic accomplishments
in his own mind, it all comes back to this. We ruined his glorious retirement celebration
NOT ONCE, BUT FREAKING TWICE. Chew on that, Mike and Mickie.
For thirty-six years Dean Smith coached in the very best basketball league that ever existed. At multiple points, four of the top five teams in the national rankings were from the ACC...and everyone played everyone twice. From 1966 to 1996, no Smith-coached team finished lower than a tie for third in that conference and for the first 21 of those years they didn't finish lower than tied for second. Every other charter member of the league managed at least one last-place finish during that same time. K can't touch that. Not even remotely. Nor can any other coach - including Wooden.
Yeah, folks now days don't realize just what UNC and Dean had to over come just to get in to the NCAAT for a large portion of his career. His Heels had to battle it out with some great programs, teams like some really good Wake teams, NC St with Thompson and Burelson, those old Left Drisell Md teams, Ralph Sampson, and duke. That was a lot of national championship quality games in the regular season. And the ACCT was just a classic every year because only the ACCT winner could advance to the NCAAT. And what did we get when we got to the NCAAT, at some point UCLA with mega teams was waiting and they had more talent than many NBA teams at the time. K didn't have to deal with much of that ye to many see him as the goat, no Dean Smith was the GOAT in a easy call.
Yep. If Krazywhiskey had started at d00k when Dean started at UNC, he’d have 2-3 less championships. Zero doubt in my mind. Muuuuuch tougher league then!
Great point! Seriously this has got to be the worst nightmare for k and dook. Lose your last game at home with your whole alums, past players, celebs, media and the whole circus that it was. Then like Jay Williams the dook fan base were arrogant and so obnoxious about how bad they wanted us again. We play in the tournament for the first time ever and in the Final Four no less and we beat them to end his career. I wonder if he had a crystal ball and saw how this was going to play out if he still would have announced his retirement tour or if he would have bowed out with Class lime Coach Smith, Guthridge and Williams. Because remember he kept saying this isn’t about him. BS. But man how embarrassing!!! Lol
I do believe Dean had k’s number when it came to wins vrs each others teams.
I honestly don't know if it matters how K would have fared in a different era, or if Dean had it harder than K. K was an all time great coach in college basketball. He's forever going to be one of the first names mentioned for greatest coach of all time. I don't know that there's any value in trying to minimize what he did, because he excelled beyond what others in his era were able to do. That of course doesn't change WHO he was and is.
To me, it's a modest hat tip for a great career, highlighting his seeming faults as a person, and following up to any Dukies that are harping the 'K is god' mantra, "How did he do in his last game? I assume he must have gone out a winner. No? Strange, at least you guys sent him out at home a winner, right? No? Damn, that must have stung."
Prickish? Yup. Will I delight any less in saying it? Nope.
To me, it's a modest hat tip for a great career, highlighting his seeming faults as a person, and following up to any Dukies that are harping the 'K is god' mantra, "How did he do in his last game? I assume he must have gone out a winner. No? Strange, at least you guys sent him out at home a winner, right? No? Damn, that must have stung."
Prickish? Yup. Will I delight any less in saying it? Nope.
