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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

Read the Articles of Secession for each state, or Alexander Stephens'- the vice president of the Confederacy- Cornerstone Speech. They explain in great detail how their country, their entire social structure is predicated on the "natural law" that the white race is superior to the black race.
that has nothing to do with why the war was fought. Post the same thing a million times and it won't make any difference in the reality of things. Lincoln did not prosecute a war because of the wording of any articles of secession. He started a war because there WERE articles of secession. It made no difference whatsoever what was in them. They might have said they wanted to grow rutabagas and not share them. Those articles might have said we are going to end slavery once we are on our own. What was in them doesn't matter one bit. The war was fought to disallow secession. Period.

But you and your buttbuddy keep harping away at anything but the question at hand and in so doing, make me out to be racist and a supporter of slavery or whatever other loser tactic you care to, and it it won't make you right. I am right. The facts that you deny are there to back me up.
 
I grew up during the Jim Crow era. Blacks and whites attended different schools until they were integrated in the seventh grade. The black schools got whatever books the white schools didn’t need, the black schools were not funded like white schools. I can remember “white only” water coolers, bathrooms, etc. One of the movie theaters here in town has a back entrance that lead straight to the balcony and that was where blacks had to go.

Now we have worked toward a new type of segregation.

Things are divided into 2 groups.

1- Group for Black Americans only

2- Group for Black Americans and everyone else is included.
 
It looks as though Newsom will be retained as the Governor of California. No shocker there.
Rigged. Dems cheated and stole it by making Californians value health care, climate change, education, gun background checks, etc. Just wait, kraken or chupacabra are going to reveal the truth.
 
Ah, yes very good. A few ad hominem attacks and some pointless angry drivel...I shudder to think how you actually talk to people face to face. But since you seem to excel at semantics, let's just get a few things straight.

1) Trying to make some weird argument the war was fought because Lincoln didn't allow the South to secede but the reasons for secession are separate doesn't hold up. You know why? Because the South didn't secede due to 'cultural differences'. If that were the case, they'd have listened to Lincoln when he said he'd preserve the Union at the cost of keeping slavery where it was already legal. Instead, a bunch of traitors seceded anyway. Why? Because they were afraid losing their power which was was again rooted in plantation style chattel human bondage. You making a bunch of irrelevant excuses doesn't change that.

talk about semantics, could you possibly contradict yourself any more? Try answering the question that I posed instead of giving us yet another strawman about secession. If the Confederates had seceded for any other reason, would there have been war? The answer is yes. You can't answer that with 'but, but, but'... that's bogus and a copout because your entire argument is a series of strawmen and illogical reasoning. You can't answer the direct question of why the war was fought by deflecting to why some States wanted to secede. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. You refuse to answer the one question at hand honestly because that doesn't allow you to continue to voice your 'evil South' narrative. There were bad things (by todays standards) going on in the South. There were bad things (by any standards) going on in the North. So what. It's immaterial to why the war was fought. The question IS why the war was fought.

2) "Nothing to apologize for" lol. Tell that to the millions who suffered for years under the yoke of Jim Crow and the legacy it's left behind. You think suddenly 1965 came around and it just went away? No big deal? The first black woman to attend an integrated school is still alive. It's only a few generations removed. The Federal Government had to drag a quarter of the country kicking and screaming into the 20th century. Let that sink in for a second.
drag those millions out and let me see them. I'll tell each and every one that I have nothing to apologize for and that I have no reason to apologize for the South. I had nothing to do with any of it, and if you had half a brain you'd understand that it we needed to apologize for all the injustices done by this country, North South East or West, we would ALL have to spend every hour of every day apologizing. Your apologist notions are as dumb as the rest of your argument
3) I view the plight of Natives and the plight of black Americans in separate contexts. Don't use the former to deflect from the latter. I doubt you care any more than the average liberal in Massachusetts or the conservative in South Carolina about Natives. Because if we're honest, neither does, including you.

LOL, It isn't a deflection you fvcking idiot. I want to know why you aren't shitting bricks over all racism. You want a deflection? Try saying 'oh that's a different context'. Oh wait, you did say that.

And for the record, I actually care deeply about what happened to the Native Americans and you're nothing but a rank hypocrite if you don't. But I already know you're a hypocrite so no surprise there. If one cared to dig deeply, he would find me saying exactly this when it was being discussed whether the greater injustice was done to black Africans or to Native Americans. It's Native Americans by a huge margin, IMO. And that does not exclude my recognition of other injustices, so don't try that strawman either.

If I ever magically found myself in absolute power in this country, a lot would be done to improve the lives of our remaining Native Americans.


4) I would never suggest the North was some utopia compared to the South or that's the case today. Every place, every region has its ups and downs, pros and cons. However, not every culture is made equal. I've noticed you have tried to cast the Northern part of the country in an equally despicable light, which is erroneous at best. Attempting to cast the Irish, Italian, German, Polish, Eastern European, and Jewish working class as being the same as slaves is a laughable attempt at pretending the two are equivalent. They aren't. The groups I mentioned may have started out at the bottom but through labor laws, Unions, fair wages, dedication, and a more tolerant setting that enabled those things, they are as part of the American story as anyone else. They went to Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Detroit, etc. and not in the swamp pits of Louisiana because A) that's where the jobs were and B) knew the hostility to their presence wasn't as extreme.

And for the record, I don't think the current culture of the South is anywhere close to that of 1865 or 1965. What I think is that there are still too many who exist in those states, who still can't come to grips with losing the war and have to justify the way things were before in order to feel better about themselves and their ancestors. It's not the right approach.
as to the last two paragraphs, you are mostly agreeing, unintentionally, with what I have been saying; but of course you want to deny that and make it sound like you are telling me something. But you need a history lesson. It has been reasonably argued that those immigrants were worse off than slaves were on average. Their lives and their conditions were terrible, and they were mercilessly exploited for their need to feed their children, who were literally starving in many cases, and they lived in squalor. Seems you'd be crying and sobbing over them and goading us all into apologizing for it.

And you answer the question of why blacks flooded north after the war. Of course they wanted to escape the hostility that they sometimes felt in the South, but mostly they went where they thought there might be work. The South was too torn apart to resume normal activities for quite some time.


Now if you'll just go ahead and answer the actual question of why the war was fought. That's OK, I know you won't.

 
Rigged. Dems cheated and stole it by making Californians value health care, climate change, education, gun background checks, etc. Just wait, kraken or chupacabra are going to reveal the truth.
Those idiots are getting what they deserve. Dems have completely destroyed what was perhaps the most incredible state in the union. Decades of “progressive” politics have made into one of the worst states. Like New Yorkers, they refuse to see the direct correlation between their progressive policies and the drastic decline in their states. Ditto for New Jersey, Maryland, Michigan, Oregon, Washington, …
 
Those idiots are getting what they deserve. Dems have completely destroyed what was perhaps the most incredible state in the union. Decades of “progressive” politics have made into one of the worst states. Like New Yorkers, they refuse to see the direct correlation between their progressive policies and the drastic decline in their states. Ditto for New Jersey, Maryland, Michigan, Oregon, Washington, …
Buncha communists!
 
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that has nothing to do with why the war was fought. Post the same thing a million times and it won't make any difference in the reality of things. Lincoln did not prosecute a war because of the wording of any articles of secession. He started a war because there WERE articles of secession. It made no difference whatsoever what was in them. They might have said they wanted to grow rutabagas and not share them. Those articles might have said we are going to end slavery once we are on our own. What was in them doesn't matter one bit. The war was fought to disallow secession. Period.

But you and your buttbuddy keep harping away at anything but the question at hand and in so doing, make me out to be racist and a supporter of slavery or whatever other loser tactic you care to, and it it won't make you right. I am right. The facts that you deny are there to back me up.
I'll give you points for beating that dead, chicken-or-the-egg-defense, horse.

You should be defending people charged with a DUI. "Your honor, the fact that my client was drunker than a soup sandwich is irrelevant to the case and the charges. The only thing that matters is that there was an accident, and a few people died."

Just another Lost Cause rationalization.
 
was drunker than a soup sandwich

tenor.gif
 
Those idiots are getting what they deserve. Dems have completely destroyed what was perhaps the most incredible state in the union. Decades of “progressive” politics have made into one of the worst states. Like New Yorkers, they refuse to see the direct correlation between their progressive policies and the drastic decline in their states. Ditto for New Jersey, Maryland, Michigan, Oregon, Washington, …

Mhm, and look at all the wonderful things living in many red states will get you: near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc.

Need I say more?

Bottom line is Arch, you give people the business all the time for not being 'fair' or 'demonizing' conservatives or Republicans when you're doing the exact same thing here. Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons.
 
I have been browsing the articles of succession today in my free time. A lot of Information to read.
 
Buncha communists!
you tell him, strum. Give him hell. Just please God don't roll out that deadly laughing jackass emoji.


I'll give you points for beating that dead, chicken-or-the-egg-defense, horse.

You should be defending people charged with a DUI. "Your honor, the fact that my client was drunker than a soup sandwich is irrelevant to the case and the charges. The only thing that matters is that there was an accident, and a few people died."

Just another Lost Cause rationalization.
you should be glad there isn't a law against being mindless and inane and having no grasp of an issue. There would be no defending you. Getting a rational post out of you is the real lost cause.
 
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Mhm, and look at all the wonderful things living in many red states will get you: near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc.

Need I say more?

Bottom line is Arch, you give people the business all the time for not being 'fair' or 'demonizing' conservatives or Republicans when you're doing the exact same thing here. Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons.
" Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons. "

that's true, just as I was saying about the States at the time of the Civil War. So you agree with me then, no State is all bad and no State is all good. So what I don't get is, if that's what you really believe, how can you apply a blanket condemnation to States of your choosing? How can it be fair and reasonable to apply a blanket judgement to any State or any thing or any person for that matter.

Attila was a bastard by all accounts, but even Attila loved his horse.
 
" Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons. "

that's true, just as I was saying about the States at the time of the Civil War. So you agree with me then, no State is all bad and no State is all good. So what I don't get is, if that's what you really believe, how can you apply a blanket condemnation to States of your choosing? How can it be fair and reasonable to apply a blanket judgement to any State or any thing or any person for that matter.

Attila was a bastard by all accounts, but even Attila loved his horse.
It looked to me like he was taking a big shot at southern states. Like those in the north are peachy and perfect. I LOL at the generalization and image he has portrayed of southern states
 
It looked to me like he was taking a big shot at southern states. Like those in the north are peachy and perfect. I LOL at the generalization and image he has portrayed of southern states
he and strum are trying to out virtue-signal each other regarding racism and slavery, etc., thinking that running down the South is the right way to do it. They aren't happy just being on the all- racism-all-the-time bandwagon, they both want to drive the damn thing. They are quite the pair...of knuckleheads.

But that being said, when can we expect your apology for slavery? I mailed mine in a long time ago but I haven't heard anything back yet. Sure hope they got it, I haven't had a good night's sleep since.....since I got up this morning.
 
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There's a couple more in that competition but I think you have correctly called first and second place. We'll see how it plays out and who exactly will wear the crown of Miss Virtue Signaler.
LOL, I'm on pins and needles to find out.
 
Mhm, and look at all the wonderful things living in many red states will get you: near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc.
Yep, all these damn yankees moving to the south have ruined everything.
 
Yep, all these damn yankees moving to the south have ruined everything.
favorite things that yankees say....

'everything is so different here, why can't it be more like the place I came here to get away from?'

'when I come into some place and bellow and complain as loudly and as obnoxiously as possible, they get all stuck up and rude acting. I guess they're still fighting the Civil War down here.'

'it snowed and everybody freaked out and I missed a half day of work and my kid couldn't go to school. I don't know why these small towns in the South where it snows once in a blue moon and melts away the next day don't invest in half a billion dollars worth of snow removal equipment.'

'they are so racist down here. Up north, we treated the blacks as if they were equal.'
 
Mhm, and look at all the wonderful things living in many red states will get you: near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc.

Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons.
Sure each state has their ups and down, pros and cons...and what is a most important pro or con that drives where to live obviously varies from person to person.

But that was the intent in the Constitution, federalism, and the great American Experiment, and the 10th Amendment, that each state would have its own laws, each state is its own entity / experiment, 50 unique entities. People could move to the state that suited their beliefs and lifestyle needs best; as long as these state laws didn't infringe upon rights defined federally in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

The Founders never intended for there to be some heavy handed imposition of so many laws (by federal government, federal executive agencies, or individual states) impacting / ruling over every aspect of the lives of all citizens in all states. There is no escape from these laws. That is so far from the intent of our Constitution.

The items you listed that you hate about "red states", what concern is it of yours whether people choose to live in a red state, under these "horrible" conditions. Live and let live, leave people alone.

If people want to live in the state of NY or CA, though I disagree with so much of what they have become, it is none of my business at all, telling anyone else they can't or shouldn't want to live there. Or that those states need to change their laws more to my liking. It is none of my business, not my role, ( or yours or anyone else's) even to "be woke" and save the other (left leaning or right leaning) people in that state, from evil, misguided (conservative or liberal) laws in the state.
abortion bans: most stringent is disallowing only after a heartbeat; but if I and my family members aren't getting abortions, and I care about the life being terminated; why should I care if the state works to defend these lives?

Voting restrictions: (such as blocking ballot harvesting? requiring voter ID?) unless I plan to cheat or don't think I can figure out how to vote in person, or don't think my fellow neighbor / friend can figure out how to vote, why do I care if the state restricts ability to cheat? If I am hellbent on allowing windows for me to cheat or to vote from my bed, I can move to a blue state. Also - many blue states have more restrictive voting laws than red states. More restrictive in NY and Delaware than in TX.

Poor education: I don't think education should be responsibility of the state / the government. As a parent I should be responsible for choosing a good education for my kids, that meets state standards. And that I should be able to choose from many free market options that meet those standards. And pay directly to that school.

But if you prefer moving to a blue-state federal government, teacher union agenda driven education system, which has been an abysmal failure in many blue states (look at CA, MD, IL, NY, NJ for starters), move there. Good luck. I'd personally prefer to choose an education for my kids from free market options, accountable to the parents (not the teachers unions) - provided that the education choice meets state standards.

This may sound like: "I just care about myself, screw everyone else". I won't bring up personal charity work here, but just say that on average, people living in red states are much more charitable in time and$ given as % of salary, than those in blue states. It is just largely a matter of whether people think government programs or private individuals do better at caring for the needy, disadvantaged. The results are clear here, too.
 
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Mhm, and look at all the wonderful things living in many red states will get you: near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc.

Need I say more?

Bottom line is Arch, you give people the business all the time for not being 'fair' or 'demonizing' conservatives or Republicans when you're doing the exact same thing here. Some states are certainly more ideal than others, but each has their own ups and downs, pros and cons.
I guess that’s why so many people from blue states are flocking to red states, which in their idiocy, they immediately start trying to make into the disasters that their previous states are.

As to your latter statement, I couldn’t care less what you or the rest of the clique think about Conservatives. I expect Progressives to demonize us, it’s all they have because their policies won’t stand on their own merit. All they have is “we hate Trump”. I do hold the mainstream media responsible for their unadulterated, agenda driven bias. The Progressives wouldn’t be able to get away with the majority of their shenanigans if the media weren’t complicit.
 
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I guess that’s why so many people from blue states are flocking to red states, which in their idiocy, they immediately start trying to make into the disasters that their previous states are.

As to your latter statement, I couldn’t care less what you or the rest of the clique think about Conservatives. I expect Progressives to demonize us, it’s all they have because their policies won’t stand on their own merit. All they have is “we hate Trump”. I do hold the mainstream media responsible for their unadulterated, agenda driven bias. The Progressives wouldn’t be able to get away with the majority of their shenanigans if the media weren’t complicit.

People from the north move south for two reasons: to get away from colder weather in the fall and winter months and because it’s cheaper. That’s it.
 
It looked to me like he was taking a big shot at southern states. Like those in the north are peachy and perfect. I LOL at the generalization and image he has portrayed of southern states

Jesus, I know a good chunk of the populace here is southern but talk about misinterpretation.

I don't know why anyone takes issue with criticism of a slave driven society or racial caste society. I have never once stated the northern states were every peachy or perfect, far from it. But if I'm in immigrant in 1878 and I had to choose between living in New York or Savannah, the answer is pretty obvious. This does not reflect my current feelings on which area is more ideal to live. But between an industrial/wage society and a racial based slave driven one, it's easier to get ahead in one than the other. It's completely fair game to criticize.
 
don’t move to hampton or colleton county sc.

this murdaugh thing is going to be ozark-esque.

had someone tell me tonight “this ain’t it”

eta: this might need its own thread
 
Sure each state has their ups and down, pros and cons...and what is a most important pro or con that drives where to live obviously varies from person to person.

But that was the intent in the Constitution, federalism, and the great American Experiment, and the 10th Amendment, that each state would have its own laws, each state is its own entity / experiment, 50 unique entities. People could move to the state that suited their beliefs and lifestyle needs best; as long as these state laws didn't infringe upon rights defined federally in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

The Founders never intended for there to be some heavy handed imposition of so many laws (by federal government, federal executive agencies, or individual states) impacting / ruling over every aspect of the lives of all citizens in all states. There is no escape from these laws. That is so far from the intent of our Constitution.

The items you listed that you hate about "red states", what concern is it of yours whether people choose to live in a red state, under these "horrible" conditions. Live and let live, leave people alone.

If people want to live in the state of NY or CA, though I disagree with so much of what they have become, it is none of my business at all, telling anyone else they can't or shouldn't want to live there. Or that those states need to change their laws more to my liking. It is none of my business, not my role, ( or yours or anyone else's) even to "be woke" and save the other (left leaning or right leaning) people in that state, from evil, misguided (conservative or liberal) laws in the state.
abortion bans: most stringent is disallowing only after a heartbeat; but if I and my family members aren't getting abortions, and I care about the life being terminated; why should I care if the state works to defend these lives?

Voting restrictions: (such as blocking ballot harvesting? requiring voter ID?) unless I plan to cheat or don't think I can figure out how to vote in person, or don't think my fellow neighbor / friend can figure out how to vote, why do I care if the state restricts ability to cheat? If I am hellbent on allowing windows for me to cheat or to vote from my bed, I can move to a blue state. Also - many blue states have more restrictive voting laws than red states. More restrictive in NY and Delaware than in TX.

Poor education: I don't think education should be responsibility of the state / the government. As a parent I should be responsible for choosing a good education for my kids, that meets state standards. And that I should be able to choose from many free market options that meet those standards. And pay directly to that school.

But if you prefer moving to a blue-state federal government, teacher union agenda driven education system, which has been an abysmal failure in many blue states (look at CA, MD, IL, NY, NJ for starters), move there. Good luck. I'd personally prefer to choose an education for my kids from free market options, accountable to the parents (not the teachers unions) - provided that the education choice meets state standards.

This may sound like: "I just care about myself, screw everyone else". I won't bring up personal charity work here, but just say that on average, people living in red states are much more charitable in time and$ given as % of salary, than those in blue states. It is just largely a matter of whether people think government programs or private individuals do better at caring for the needy, disadvantaged. The results are clear here, too.

With all due respect, the Founders had very different ideas on how the country should be run. It was not universal nor unanimous. John Adams and Alexander Hamilton thought very differently than Thomas Jefferson and James Madison for example. Laws, government, and society evolves over time. The Founders could never have envisioned the internet, moving cars, planes, machine guns, smart phones, etc. It's impossible to know.

The new Texas law is one of the most restrictive on record and I heavily doubt anything from Delaware or New York is stricter. But if you have links supporting the position I'd be happy to read it.

As for abortion, if you're not getting an abortion then that's great. It's none of your business if someone else does.

And your characterization of education is something I disagree with as well. Most of the states you listed are among the best in terms of their overall education and public schools. Maryland and New Jersey, for example, are consistently top 10. New England is famous for having a well funded, well received education system.


You believe that charitable giving among wealthy, private individuals is enough to stem the tide of poverty and misfortunate among those who have little or nothing. I again, disagree. If there's anything I've learned from 2008, it's that corporatism often screws people over. The impact wealthy people can have is limited compared to that of government.

I am well aware almost no one on OOTB will concur with this but I believe a stronger welfare state and stronger safety nets, such as in Canada and Australia, are a much more effective way at combating poverty and giving people a basic coverage of necessities, even if they will never truly be middle class or wealthy. The results by comparison are very clear as well.
 
Jesus, I know a good chunk of the populace here is southern but talk about misinterpretation.

I don't know why anyone takes issue with criticism of a slave driven society or racial caste society. I have never once stated the northern states were every peachy or perfect, far from it. But if I'm in immigrant in 1878 and I had to choose between living in New York or Savannah, the answer is pretty obvious. This does not reflect my current feelings on which area is more ideal to live. But between an industrial/wage society and a racial based slave driven one, it's easier to get ahead in one than the other. It's completely fair game to criticize.
"Near total abortion bans, voting restrictions, the ability to carry a gun without any training or background check beforehand, high mortality and poverty rates, shitass education, etc"

Whats to misinterpret?
 
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