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Roy > Dean?

bleeduncblue

bleeduncblue

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Dec 7, 2004
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It has to be asked. IF Roy gets #3 does he surpass Dean, in your mind?

Dean: 13 ACCT titles, 17 ACC Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .776 winning percentage, 35 years as HC

Roy: 6 ACC/Big 12 tournament titles, 11 Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .790 winning percentage, 28 years as HC.

Forget what Dean "did for the game" - that stuff is awesome but I'm purely talking stats, record and opinion.
 
No, as simple as I can put it and Roy would very quickly say the same thing. Things are so much different now than they were for much of Dean's career. How many titles would Dean have won had the ACC been able to send more than just one team to the NCAAT? The ACCT was a WAR back then and the league was FULL of great teams EVERY season. Some of our very best teams did not make it in to the NCAAT because the ACCT was so powerful that teams beat up on each other and upsets were to be expected. I don't think it a stretch to say if you made the NCAAT as the ONLY team the NCAA would allow you already had the hardest path to the title and very likely so beat up that winnning it all was made even harder.

Not to mention the UCLA effect, no matter how they got their players they were able to assemble GREAT teams, not really really good teams but GREAT teams. There are not teams any where close now days to what UCLA was putting out there. There is some great talent now days but UCLA under John Wooden not only had the best talents like maybe Ky and duke get now days but they got yo have them for 4 yrs of development. Imagine for example Ky being able to keep its talents for a full 4yrs, or duke? That is what Wooden, a great coach by the way, was able to have. We talk about how some college teams get so loaded with talent they could compete with an NBA team, well UCLA actually had teams that could.

No disrespect to Roy but he isn't Dean nor should he or anyone else ever be expected to be.
 
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You absolutely can remove personal accomplishments from stats, record and opinion Well, I won't speak for YOU but most folks can.
 
These two guys will be forever linked; Mentor and dutiful "son" who finally returned to pick the mantle. Dean's records, accomplishments and impact will be forever unparalleled. Roy is writing his own story now beyond that. If he picks up #3 (Man, I am really hoping he gets it this year)- that will be first line in his legacy. He will have his place on the Mt Rushmore of Tar Heel Basketball if he is not up there already!
 
bleeduncblue said:
You absolutely can remove personal accomplishments from stats, record and opinion Well, I won't speak for YOU but most folks can.
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Yep. Just going by stats, what's the ultimate goal...? The national championship. Roy would have one more if he gets 3. That would be pretty damning evidence in a court of law!
 
We will see how this year plays out but .... I think actually Sjung had a pretty accurate compelling post on Roy's tourney results. Since at unc I think his teams have all performed at or above expectations based on seeding. Few if any upsets.

I guess you can say that means Roy is a good strategist and gets his guys in the right mindset to play best when it counts most.

Dean was legendary but I think being honest, people have to admit that he underachieved sometimes in the tourney. All the Final Fours but "only" two titles is the one disappointment I can see people having especially with some of the stacked teams he had.

I think Roy actually might be a better recruiter too. I know it's been a struggle for obvious reasons lately but Riy has to work so darn hard at it. At the peak of Deans time I think based on what dean had built top recruits really had unc as their #1 option. Now for Roy it osnso much harder to navigate and manage with early entries, handlers, one and done universities etc

I don't discount what Dean has contributed to basketball and he is the creator / godfather of The Program, The Family, The Carolina Way. But to say that his accomplishments (vs Roy's or some other coach's) is off limits from debate, "settled science" case closed, seems like some sort of false religion. Whatever Dean has done AND HOW HE WENT ABOUT DOING IT can sure stack up well against any coach. Bar none. But to me saying "Roy or anyone else can Never be compared to Dean"!is his not fair to Roy. I believe Dean would feel the same way.
 
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bleeduncblue said:
It has to be asked. IF Roy gets #3 does he surpass Dean, in your mind?

Dean: 13 ACCT titles, 17 ACC Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .776 winning percentage, 35 years as HC

Roy: 6 ACC/Big 12 tournament titles, 11 Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .790 winning percentage, 28 years as HC.

Forget what Dean "did for the game" - that stuff is awesome but I'm purely talking stats, record and opinion.
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Sorry bleed, but no, it doesn't need to be asked, nor should it be.--- especially not by Carolina fans.

Dean's record was achieved building a program from the ashes of Frank McGuire's shenanigans, and doing it cleanly. Remember it wasn't until the latter years of his career that Dean could "select" in recruiting. He got teams to the Final Four (and established his unprecedented ACC success streaks) with only one or two players who would have been modern "top-50" recruits.

Roy is the logical continuation of Dean (albeit with the ugly Doh interruption) --- and even Doh left the cupboard loaded. Roy walked into a demoralized National Championship nucleus anchor class (Felton/May/McCants). He had to coach em up and he did. But he also had what Dean created and invented ("Carolina Basketball") to recruit to (check out the Adam Lucas reference to Marcus Paige's allegiances).

Again, not to scold, but this is not a legitimate question.
 
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Without Dean, there is no Roy. I think Roy would say that first and always. Measuring success by statistics is one way to do it. There are other measures. In fact, there's really no need to measure these two AGAINST each other at all.

ETA: Since there would be no Roy without Dean, it's conceivable to say that all of Roy's accomplishments are extensions of Dean and can be credited to Dean as well. Of course, Dean would NEVER want that credit, which makes the need or attempt at comparison even more foolish and futile.
 
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Dean will always be the better coach but something can be said about winning the "big one" and Roy would have the edge if he gets #3. For as incredible as Dean was, he didn't win as many ncaa championships as he should have.
 
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2 wonderful people, individuals that of course will be linked forever but deserve their own and separate pages in history.
 
Some of y'all are too funny! ANY question CAN be asked. If the entire premise of someone being a better coach than Dean causes you such angst, kindly move along :D (and PS, Ratface is a better COACH than Dean was, unless of course you don't believe stats matter and in that case, it's completely subjective)

As Heelicious pointed out very well, it's not as if Roy is some kind of tool and has no business in the conversation. I was born the year Dean made a huge coaching blunder and choked away a national title vs Marquette....I attended his coaching camps with my Dad, sat in his office several times and had the good fortune to play golf with him once - I loved the man to death - and currently, yes, I still lean his way in this debate ...but the statistical argument is much closer than many 'lifers' want to admit.

And who begat whom has nothing to do with it. OF COURSE without Dean, Roy wouldn't be nearly as successful - DUHHHH...but that doesn't mean the pupil can never excel beyond the abilities of the teacher.

And to the JINX idea - I said "IF" ...and also, SERIOUSLY? I wish I had that kind of power!!
 
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heels05champs said:
Dean will always be the better coach but something can be said about winning the "big one" and Roy would have the edge if he gets #3. For as incredible as Dean was, he didn't win as many ncaa championships as he should have.
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This is what I mean. WHY will Dean "always be the better coach"? Because he saved the program? (so did Roy) ...because he put his players first? (so does Roy)

Dean made some massive mistakes too, underachieved badly at times and was a complete a-hole to other players, coaches, refs, and media from time to time. I just don't get the "no one will EVER be better" statement - again, based on statistical facts, not subjective emotion.
 
bleeduncblue said:
Dean made some massive mistakes too, underachieved badly at times and was a complete a-hole to other players, coaches, refs, and media from time to time.
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I'm not going to weigh in on the Roy vs. Dean debate as I wasn't around for the majority of the Dean years. I will definitely be monitoring this thread though, as I imagine the above comment is sure to produce a nice fireworks show.

I agree that the debate of who's resume is better is a very reasonable one to have.
 
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mikeirbyusa said:
That's all that needs to be said PERIOD and Coach Roy would agree.
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Agreed. Two different eras, it's hard to compare them because they're so very different. When Coach Smith started, most players were white, Freshmen were inelligible, only the conference champ advanced to the NCAAT, UCLA was completely dominating the sport, and players didn't leave before their Junior year. Seven teams from the ACC made the tourney this year, OAD's are becoming common, most players are black, and dook is the closest thing to a dominant team(and they've only won five titles in 35 years, a far cry from what UCLA did). IOW, it's apples to oranges IMO.

It's ironic that we've run the gamut from Roy being roundly criticized earlier in the year, to the extent that some were calling for him to retire, to a thread like this. And if we don't win the title, some will be hammering him again. Fans are insane.
 
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The question is quite legitimate, and it has all to do with stats and nothing to do with program-building and other intangibles. We all know Dean built the foundation. That does not mean, however, that you can attribute Roy's national championships to Dean. Those are Roy's and Roy's only (well OK, the 2005 one is Doherty's too).

Like I said in my previous post, the ultimate goal is to win the national championship. Currently, Roy has done that the same number of times that Dean did. Dean didn't win it as much as he should have. That's not a knock, it's just a fact. @heelmanwilm does bring up a good point about longevity though. And Dean definitely has a big advantage in ACCT titles (but again, the NCAAT is the ultimate goal).

The concept should at least spark some good discussion on both sides. Can we please stop with the "Real Carolina fans wouldn't ask this question" stuff? It's pretty silly.
 
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IMO you can only make the argument for Roy if you can somehow prove that all wins, regardless of conference affiliation, are equal. If you do that you also have to concede that Kentucky is the greatest program ever because they have the best stats and no discounting their wins just because they play in the SEC. I don't buy it. Dean all day long and twice on Sunday.
 
bleeduncblue said:
Some of y'all are too funny! ANY question CAN be asked. If the entire premise of someone being a better coach than Dean causes you such angst, kindly move along :D (and PS, Ratface is a better COACH than Dean was, unless of course you don't believe stats matter and in that case, it's completely subjective)

As Heelicious pointed out very well, it's not as if Roy is some kind of tool and has no business in the conversation. I was born the year Dean made a huge coaching blunder and choked away a national title vs Marquette....I attended his coaching camps with my Dad, sat in his office several times and had the good fortune to play golf with him once - I loved the man to death - and currently, yes, I still lean his way in this debate ...but the statistical argument is much closer than many 'lifers' want to admit.

And who begat whom has nothing to do with it. OF COURSE without Dean, Roy wouldn't be nearly as successful - DUHHHH...but that doesn't mean the pupil can never excel beyond the abilities of the teacher.

And to the JINX idea - I said "IF" ...and also, SERIOUSLY? I wish I had that kind of power!!
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Not angst whatsoever. It's frankly just a spurious question with zero value. Statistically you cannot compare eras.
And BTW, your statement that Rat is a better coach is bullshit. When they were contemporaries Dean owned his ass... and unlike Dean or Roy, K took shortcuts to get where he is. Even as good a coach as John Wooden was, without Sam Gilbert his statistics wouldn't be anywhere NEAR what they were.

And for the record Dean didn't "choke away" a Natty vs Marquette. Yeah, he made a coaching mistake in letting Buckley stay on the floor too long on a matter of principle, but Phil Ford was playing on one good leg and a bum shooting elbow, Walter Davis was playing with broken fingers on his shooting hand and the great Tommy LaGarde (our only legit D-1 Big) was done for the season. That once potentially great team was a shadow of itself in March. In all honesty, Dean did a miraculous coaching job to even get to the Finals and he thoroughly out-coached Digger Phelps, Joe B. Hall and Jerry Tarkanian in succession to get there.
 
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dadika13 said:
The problem is you can't "forget" what Dean did for the game. Revolutionized offense and race relations. Sorry, but I'm not going to forget that.

Love Roy, but he's not Dean. To be fair, no one is.
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Well said.

It's kind of like Phil Ford. He'll always be the best point guard. Even if he isn't.

The best Roy can do vis a vis Dean is be at his level. But Dean is the definition of the level that others strive to be at.
 
You guys are missing the point of his question. No, Roy won't ever have the true impact on the program that Dean had, but how can you argue who the more successful coach is when one of them might have more titles in 13 years at the school than the other had in 36 years? Sorry but thats pretty ludicrous to argue against imo. And its not like Roy walked into the best situation either. The program was 2 years from its worst season ever and even though we had the trio of May, McCants, and Felton, if they were as great as everyone made them out to be then how come Doh couldnt even make the tournament with them? Not to mention we dont get Marvin Williams without Roy and we dont win the title in 05 without Marvin Williams
 
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For me the real mark was the string of sweet 16 births Dean had, that was an amazing feat but was just another one of the great things Dean achieved.

I love Roy and have said many times here that there is really only 1 other guy I would prefer to be our coach, I have never even once waivered from that. But Kansas fans also talk about the great teams Roy had at kansas and often talk about how he was seen as under achieving with several of those teams, Roy himself has said as much.

Personally, I do see things that Roy does at times that I am not all that fond of, rarely if ever was that the case with Dean. That is more how my view is formed, in no way is that to down play Roy but more so to speak to the greatness we all enjoyed under Dean.

I will always respect the fact that Roy left the program he loved and was very successful at to come back home to the ONLY program he would have left kansas for. He could have remained his own man at Kansas or come back to remain in the shadow of Dean and at our hour of most need, Roy did in fact save this proud program and for that I will always be thankful for his doing that.
 
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thaUNCshow said:
You guys are missing the point of his question. No, Roy won't ever have the true impact on the program that Dean had, but how can you argue who the more successful coach is when one of them might have more titles in 13 years at the school than the other had in 36 years? Sorry but thats pretty ludicrous to argue against imo. And its not like Roy walked into the best situation either. The program was 2 years from its worst season ever and even though we had the trio of May, McCants, and Felton, if they were as great as everyone made them out to be then how come Doh couldnt even make the tournament with them? Not to mention we dont get Marvin Williams without Roy and we dont win the title in 05 without Marvin Williams
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You base all of your opinion on results in the NCAA tournament. I don't. It's a single elimination tournament that is nothing like the tournament from Dean's time. Wins, regular season titles, and ACC titles should carry equal weight. Roy lost the 2005 and 2009 ACC Tournament. In a lot of Dean's time that would mean no NCAA tournament.
 
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Purely based on stats it's an interesting intellectual discussion.

From the perspective of a Heels fan it might border on sacreligious!

I like to think they each have their own story: different eras, master and pupil, etc etc.

Most importantly, and thankfully, both coached UNC.
 
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Ozheelfan said:
Purely based on stats it's an interesting intellectual discussion.

From the perspective of a Heels fan it might border on sacreligious!

I like to think they each have their own story: different eras, master and pupil, etc etc.

Most importantly, and thankfully, both coached UNC.
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Dean Smith said right after his 82 Natty "I am no better coach today than I was yesterday"... Roy quoted him and said the same thing in 2005. That pretty much tells the tale.
 
bleeduncblue said:
It has to be asked. IF Roy gets #3 does he surpass Dean, in your mind?

Dean: 13 ACCT titles, 17 ACC Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .776 winning percentage, 35 years as HC

Roy: 6 ACC/Big 12 tournament titles, 11 Regular Season titles, 4 time National COY, .790 winning percentage, 28 years as HC.

Forget what Dean "did for the game" - that stuff is awesome but I'm purely talking stats, record and opinion.
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No. From a stats standpoint, winning .776 in the 8 team ACC is harder than .790 in today's league. And a lot of Roy's wins came in the Big12, which in the 90s wasn't as good as the SEC.

Don't forget Dean's 13 straight sweet 16s, 1st or 2nd in ACC for a bazillion years, and countless victories as an underdog.

Dean is the greatest basketball coach in history. If you had 2 teams with the exact same roster, Dean would win the majority against any other coach.

Your point is a good one though-Roy is a much better coach than most (me included) usually give him credit for.
 
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gary-7 said:
Dean Smith said right after his 82 Natty "I am no better coach today than I was yesterday"... Roy quoted him and said the same thing in 2005. That pretty much tells the tale.
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And if Dean was alive he'd surely say "Roy is definitely better" ...and Roy would say "I'll never be as good as Dean." I don't care about the warm and fuzzy crap. It's a solid statistical debate whether you like it or not.

Oh and you referred to K taking "shortcuts" --- he learned the Olympics stuff from Dean, right?

Lastly, Dean ADMITTEDLY choked in the Marquette game by going to 4 corners way too early. He said it several times.

I understand it's 2 different eras but the ACC in the 80's/90's isn't that much different than the ACC over the last 15 years, so I think the comparison can be made fairly.
 
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