So I guess it wasn't Bateman's fault?

[blazers]

Lots of subtle shit-talk off-season about Bateman. It seems things regressed, so I was ok w a change, but the new staff obviously wasn't a dynamic fix. I don't think it is coaching alone.

Why the culture of softness since Butch era?

S&C isn't that complex. And from Warren to Porter to Searles to Mack - they've all been around hugely physical teams, so they'd recognize bad s&c.

What's in the water on the football side in chapel hill?

 

[WoadBlue]

I always said it was not Bateman's fault. Kids at school misbehave when they sense that they can get away with it. Players and assistant coaches on D knew that Mack felt forced to hire Bateman rather than the lousy DC BFF he announced was his DC. So they knew that if they ignored Bateman or even rebelled that the odds were good that the worst they would get would a slap on the wrist.

The D looked great against Moo, until the very end when nobody was on the same page. It looked very convenient that suddenly out of nowhere, after 55 minutes of very sound play, the D simply looked totally unorganized.

The problems are still about coaching, but they are as they were last year: Mack's BFFs.

Fedora definitely was going to be a coach who produced soft teams, and so is grandfatherly Mack.

 

[tarheel0910]

Last time Chizik came, he took one of the worst P5 defenses in the country and turned it around in one summer. He has again inherited one of the worst P5 defenses. We just all assumed that he would be able to do the impossible again.

The D has been horrible so far, but saying he's failed after two games is a little early. We can't reasonably expect a miracle again.

 

[Archer2]

Last time Chizik came, he took one of the worst P5 defenses in the country and turned it around in one summer. He has again inherited one of the worst P5 defenses. We just all assumed that he would be able to do the impossible again.

The D has been horrible so far, but saying he's failed after two games is a little early. We can't reasonably expect a miracle again.

Thank you for the voice of reason. I guess I thought there would be instant improvement defensively, we were so bad that we had to be better. But we were sooooooo bad that instant improvement hasn’t happened. Let’s give Chizik a couple of seasons before we run him and Mack out of town on a rail. I think we’ll see improvement as the season progresses but as hinted at above, we need a culture change. We are just soft. Whether that’s due to the S&C(somewhat IMO), or Mack has been too buddy buddy with the players/coaches and there’s not enough accountability/discipline(the main reason IMO), we’re too soft. I personally feel our players are coddled too much. And there’s too many BFF’s on the staff for real accountability.

I’m questioning the players’ manhood this week if I’m Chizik and Warren, literally questioning their manhood. I’m showing them the tape of the JSU vs FAMU game and showing them what an aggressive defense looks like. Our defense plays like a bunch of prima donnas, nothing “rude” about them at all except their celebrations when they just happen to make a routine play. Ultimately, that’s all on Mack and the staff he’s chosen.

 

[blazers]

Last time Chizik came, he took one of the worst P5 defenses in the country and turned it around in one summer. He has again inherited one of the worst P5 defenses. We just all assumed that he would be able to do the impossible again.

The D has been horrible so far, but saying he's failed after two games is a little early. We can't reasonably expect a miracle again.

At this point I'm not blaming coaches, I'm also not blaming S&C.

It is ridiculous to talk about "mack's bff's" but even going there, nobody would call Brian Hess a sacred cow that mack is beholden to.

Mitch Mason the chaplain, or AJ Blue), Blue cups or maybe other long-term cogs from the last two decades are probably just as easy a blame as Brian Hess.

I feel it is more motivation (heart, attitude, culture, etc) the past decade rather than s&c, cuz plenty of guys every yr are getting strong/fast (third rounder Ezeudu for example, Heck, Strowbridge all the rb/wr).

 

[midline]

Bateman wasn't an idiot, as proven by his defenses at Army. Neither is Gene. Two different approaches on the defensive side of the football but both can, and will, work. I am beginning to wonder if the evaluation part of the recruiting process is lacking. The football office loves to spew the propaganda everytime the sign their latest 4 star who has become a diva on the 7 on 7 circuit. But then they play like they did last year, and Saturday. And let's be real truthful, they managed to make a helpless, half the team not available, FAMU crowd look legitimate. But ole Mack is going to talk about how it is all going to come together while he just smiles and talks about how great a QB is who couldn't start at Clemson, was awful at Duke, then dropped to App St so he could play, that just lit him up like a JV team.

 

[randman1]

I think mixing some blitzes and other less "simplified" tactics in would help. Don't have to be as creative as Bateman but in today's game, not telegraphing what you will do on defense and implementing more of an attacking defense helps.

Wish Chizik moderated just a little in that area.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

Thank you for the voice of reason. I guess I thought there would be instant improvement defensively, we were so bad that we had to be better. But we were sooooooo bad that instant improvement hasn’t happened. Let’s give Chizik a couple of seasons before we run him and Mack out of town on a rail. I think we’ll see improvement as the season progresses but as hinted at above, we need a culture change. We are just soft. Whether that’s due to the S&C(somewhat IMO), or Mack has been too buddy buddy with the players/coaches and there’s not enough accountability/discipline(the main reason IMO), we’re too soft. I personally feel our players are coddled too much. And there’s too many BFF’s on the staff for real accountability.

I’m questioning the players’ manhood this week if I’m Chizik and Warren, literally questioning their manhood. I’m showing them the tape of the JSU vs FAMU game and showing them what an aggressive defense looks like. Our defense plays like a bunch of prima donnas, nothing “rude” about them at all except their celebrations when they just happen to make a routine play. Ultimately, that’s all on Mack and the staff he’s chosen.

This was the problem with that off season move:

If Chizik is going to need a couple seasons, then why not just stick with Bateman, and let him implement his scheme with his guys?

 

[randman1]

This was the problem with that off season move:

If Chizik is going to need a couple seasons, then why not just stick with Bateman, and let him implement his scheme with his guys?

Agreed, although not sure though what happened with Bateman. Seems like he lost the players a bit or perhaps they couldn't keep up with the mental edge needed for Bateman's defensive style.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

I think mixing some blitzes and other less "simplified" tactics in would help. Don't have to be as creative as Bateman but in today's game, not telegraphing what you will do on defense and implementing more of an attacking defense helps.

Wish Chizik moderated just a little in that area.

Chizik runs a vanilla bend-but-don't-break scheme. That's who he is, always has been, and we knew it when we hired him. I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon.

 

[tarheel0910]

At this point I'm not blaming coaches, I'm also not blaming S&C.

It is ridiculous to talk about "mack's bff's" but even going there, nobody would call Brian Hess a sacred cow that mack is beholden to.

Mitch Mason the chaplain, or AJ Blue), Blue cups or maybe other long-term cogs from the last two decades are probably just as easy a blame as Brian Hess.

I feel it is more motivation (heart, attitude, culture, etc) the past decade rather than s&c, cuz plenty of guys every yr are getting strong/fast (third rounder Ezeudu for example, Heck, Strowbridge all the rb/wr).

You have to be strong and fast in the right way. If that was all you needed, then you could just get some body builders and push people around. Different types of athletes have to be trained different.

 

[blazers]

Bateman wasn't an idiot, as proven by his defenses at Army. Neither is Gene. Two different approaches on the defensive side of the football but both can, and will, work. I am beginning to wonder if the evaluation part of the recruiting process is lacking.

@gteeitup was making the same pt about questioning the eval process specifically to something like football iq.

 

[blazers]

You have to be strong and fast in the right way. If that was all you needed, then you could just get some body builders and push people around. Different types of athletes have to be trained different.

We've been developing guys with fball strength & speed though. Obviously we have lots of flops too, I mentioned guys above, but look at Look at Cedric Gray -athletic, fast and he's added enough size to help run gm (more than last yr, at least)

 

[tarheel0910]

We've been developing guys with fball strength & speed though. Obviously we have lots of flops too, I mentioned guys above, but look at Look at Cedric Gray -athletic, fast and he's added enough size to help run gm (more than last yr, at least)

I was only referring to the line. Each position is trained different, because they have different needs. The lineman you mentioned totally transformed their body before the draft based on advice, so that's pretty telling. Something is just off with the line not getting push.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

Agreed, although not sure though what happened with Bateman. Seems like he lost the players a bit or perhaps they couldn't keep up with the mental edge needed for Bateman's defensive style.

Bateman was here during the height of the pandemic. Basically got two good classes under his belt. Honestly, mediocre OL play gives us wins against VaTech and Pitt and he probably keeps his job. I'm not saying he was without fault, GaTech game, for example, was a disaster. But you gotta put things in perspective.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

I was only referring to the line. Each position is trained different, because they have different needs. The lineman you mentioned totally transformed their body before the draft based on advice, so that's pretty telling. Something is just off with the line not getting push.

This right here.. Stop the run first. No secondary is going to look good playing behind our front seven. That's why you heard Mack, all summer, during camp, talking about stopping the run, and getting to the QB. Same goes for OL. What we saw last year. Everything starts at the LOS. Physicality and fundamentals. We've lacked both.

 

[blazers]

I was only referring to the line. Each position is trained different, because they have different needs. The lineman you mentioned totally transformed their body before the draft based on advice, so that's pretty telling. Something is just off with the line not getting push.

Ezeudu had pretty good grades as a player, could move, get downfield. Our lineplay has been weak, but guys like him and strowbridge were effective, good college players and they had the same s&c as everyone else.

 

[sctarheel30]

Letter of apology to Mr. Bateman.

So we now realize that this mess wasn’t completely your fault. Man is there a lot of blame to go around too…..to be honest too many to list here. We seem to be worse this year than last.

Best of luck.

Sincerely,
Mack & Tar Heel Fans

 

[tarheel0910]

Letter of apology to Mr. Bateman.

So we now realize that this mess wasn’t completely your fault. Man is there a lot of blame to go around too…..to be honest too many to list here. We seem to be worse this year than last.

Best of luck.

Sincerely,
Mack & Tar Heel Fans

Not really sure you can say it's worse after just four games. Did you judge Bateman after four games?

 

[525william]

Bateman also is an much better recruiter than Gene

 

[tarheel0910]

Bateman also is an much better recruiter than Gene

Yeah, I can't believe Chizik hasn't brought in multiple five stars in a few months. Dude sucks. Bateman did an excellent job coaching the safeties though. Those guys were elite the last couple of years.

 

[sctarheel30]

Not really sure you can say it's worse after just four games. Did you judge Bateman after four games?

Have you not watched this mess. Ok wait til the season is over and say it then or whenever you wish

 

[tarheel0910]

Have you not watched this mess. Ok wait til the season is over and say it then or whenever you wish

I've watched it in person. It absolutely sucks. We went from probably the worst defense in the country to probably the worst defense in the country.

 

[sctarheel30]

I've watched it in person. It absolutely sucks. We went from probably the worst defense in the country to probably the worst defense in the country.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. But everyone thought it was his fault and Gene was supposed to change all of that

 

[sctarheel30]

Hard to believe this defense is hard to fix with all the talent we have please just some decent coaching

 

[tarheel0910]

I couldn’t have said it better myself. But everyone thought it was his fault and Gene was supposed to change all of that

I think the expectations were too high because of the miracle he worked last time. Bateman was just a bad fit for whatever reason. It happens. A good coach has to be in the right situation to get good results. It's all a crapshoot unless you are elite.

 

[sctarheel30]

Hard to believe this defense is hard to fix with all the talent we have please just some decent coaching

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

Bateman's scheme was a lot more complex and we didn't have adequate personnel to run it. So, that's a difficult judgement to make imo. I'm not a huge fan of Chizik's scheme, but I think it'll work if we give it some time.

 

[bluetoe]

how about some fundamentals? I couldn't help comparing our defense to State's again. They wrap up when they tackle, go for the legs and stop the runner dead in his tracks for the most part. We act like the ground might get us dirty or something.

In the ND game, two plays in a row I saw a defender chasing a runner and trying to grab the material on the back of his jersey, like some little kid who was playing for the first time. If you're close enough to do that, you're close enough to dive for the legs It was nauseating. We allow yards after contact consistently, and that isn't because the hogs are pushing the runner...that's just because we aren't tackling.

 

[tarheel0910]

Bateman's scheme was a lot more complex and we didn't have adequate personnel to run it. So, that's a difficult judgement to make imo. I'm not a huge fan of Chizik's scheme, but I think it'll work if we give it some time.

It shouldn't take players three years to learn a scheme and it shouldn't take a coach that long to get the players he needs. A good coach will adjust to the personal he has.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

It shouldn't take players three years to learn a scheme and it shouldn't take a coach that long to get the players he needs. A good coach will adjust to the personal he has.

I think people forget the state of our defense and what our depth looked like when Mack took over. It takes at least four cycles to turn over a roster. Bateman basically had two classes. That's not really enough imo. I don't know what adjustments were discussed or made. They had some good games, just not consistent enough. It is what it is. Good thing is Chizik has a solid foundation to work with moving forward.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

how about some fundamentals? I couldn't help comparing our defense to State's again. They wrap up when they tackle, go for the legs and stop the runner dead in his tracks for the most part. We act like the ground might get us dirty or something.

In the ND game, two plays in a row I saw a defender chasing a runner and trying to grab the material on the back of his jersey, like some little kid who was playing for the first time. If you're close enough to do that, you're close enough to dive for the legs It was nauseating. We allow yards after contact consistently, and that isn't because the hogs are pushing the runner...that's just because we aren't tackling.

Fundamentals are definitely lacking in some spots. And that's definitely going to have to change for Chizik's scheme to work. Any scheme really, but more so his where you're trying to force teams to dink-and-donk it down the field over 13 or 14 plays.

 

[tarheel0910]

I think people forget the state of our defense and what our depth looked like when Mack took over. It takes at least four cycles to turn over a roster. Bateman basically had two classes. That's not really enough imo. It is what it is. I don't know what adjustments were discussed or made. Good thing is Chizik has a solid foundation to work with moving forward.

Not really buying that the issue was not having his players. We regressed every year. That's a coaching issue. I never really thought he was a good fit anyway. He might end up being a good coach somewhere else, but it wasn't working here.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

Not really buying that the issue was not having his players. We regressed every year. That's a coaching issue. I never really thought he was a good fit anyway. He might end up being a good coach somewhere else, but it wasn't working here.

You don't think having your guys to fit your scheme is an issue? 😬. I think that's probably not a great take.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

It kinda depends on how you're defining regression too. I agree, coaching was prob a part of it, hard to argue it wasn't when you go from what 23 pts/game to 32 pts/game over three years? But the talent waned too, I think, I would have to go back and look. Not on paper, but the guys on the field. Those were Fedora holdovers and Mack's first class that were upperclassmen.

So, there was probably always going to be somewhat of a drop off, and there was on both sides of the ball. Some things we got better at but you're right as far as keeping people out of the end zone. Point being, personally, I think it's hard to disentangle all that (not having adequate personnel, drop in talent, historically bad OL on the other side of the ball), and make a fair judgement only looking at a couple years. And it really depends on how you look at it. I mean, Chizik has considerably more talent, it's a much more simple scheme, so if we're no better than where we were Bateman's first year, fair to say we regressed? 🤷🏻‍♂️ Hope I'm wrong, but really don't see that happening. Ultimately, it's kind of a silly argument imo.

 

[randman1]

Not really buying that the issue was not having his players. We regressed every year. That's a coaching issue. I never really thought he was a good fit anyway. He might end up being a good coach somewhere else, but it wasn't working here.

Not sure why he couldn't be a good fit. Maybe this has to do with the defensive staff?

Bateman seemed to lose the players some. Not sure what happened there but I don't blame Bateman. Whether I am right or not, the same issues exist now as well. Bateman's D initially could have some good play. The schemes seemed to work but we were too inconsistent and then we regressed.

Not sure what the issue was but Bateman was known for both fundamentals and scheme.

 

[tarheel0910]

You don't think having your guys to fit your scheme is an issue? 😬. I think that's probably not a great take.

He had a lot of his guys in year three. I don't think every player we recruited was a bust. One or two maybe, but almost everyone has significantly underperformed. If Bateman's biggest issue was personnel, he should have modified the system to make it fit what he had.

 

[tarheel0910]

Not sure why he couldn't be a good fit. Maybe this has to do with the defensive staff?

Bateman seemed to lose the players some. Not sure what happened there but I don't blame Bateman. Whether I am right or not, the same issues exist now as well. Bateman's D initially could have some good play. The schemes seemed to work but we were too inconsistent and then we regressed.

Not sure what the issue was but Bateman was known for both fundamentals and scheme.

There's all kinds of reasons why a coach might not fit. Players, other coaches, recruiting, fans, culture or just plain luck. We'll never know the exact reason and I'm sure it wasn't all his fault. It's never one person.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

He had a lot of his guys in year three. I don't think every player we recruited was a bust. One or two maybe, but almost everyone has significantly underperformed. If Bateman's biggest issue was personnel, he should have modified the system to make it fit what he had.

Go back and look. That 2019 class wasn't a full cycle. He had a lot of freshmen and sophomores. Out two deep wasn't scaring anyone. Vohasek was our NT. If you're going to run a 3-4, it helps to have 3-4 personnel 🤷🏻‍♂️.

 

[tarheel0910]

Go back and look. That 2019 class wasn't a full cycle. He had a lot of freshmen and sophomores. Vohasek was our NT. If you're going to run a 3-4, it helps to have 3-4 personnel 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Why not dumb down the scheme? If it was so complicated that top recruits couldn't get it, then maybe adjust it until you can fill your roster with players smart enough. Seems to me like he had the biggest problem that Longo has, he couldn't/wouldn't adjust like he should. The only difference is Longo has had elite players that can hide it.