The "soft" myth and the reality of officiating.

[gary-7]

In the "stuff" thread @FlaTarHeel made the point that we walk into every game with he rep of being "soft". That dates back to the 70s when our culture of playing the game the right way was challenged by first Terry Holland (later followed by the Rat) bringing thuggery into the ACC. Meanwhile the old Big East immediately looked like a NYC playground, and hell, watching any random Big-10 game looks like something that should be played with a puck. In other words, we've been having to overcome that garbage for years.

Back in the 2016 NCAAT, there was an incident before we played Providence during stretching/shoot-around where their players were talking smack within our guys' earshot about UNC being soft and making fun of our "baby blue" colors, etc.. Now, as we know, making Joel Berry mad was a colossally bad idea, just this side of punching Bruce Banner in the face, and you might remember Brice Johnson sending one of their shots into the stands and screaming "GET THE F*** OUTTA MY HOUSE!!!" (fortunately facing away from Roy at the time).

The first point is that we had some tough mofos on that team... as we have had on myriad teams here. Just because we don't play dirty shouldn't mean we're somehow "soft". But sadly, that's what college hoops has devolved into. And the second point is that ultimately, folks, it comes down to officiating. People on a message board can give me all the grief they want, but the simple fact is that NOTHING --- not the best player, best coach, whatever --- can affect a game as greatly as a zebra. Trust me when I tell you, coaching staffs scout zebras as well as opponents.

Sure, they're human and imperfect, but ultimately they have two jobs they should absolutely have to be accountable for --- call the game without an agenda and keep the physical stuff under control. Players will do as much as they can get away with, and refs can either nip thuggery in the bud, or let it fester. The whole country just witnessed today the ugly results of the latter. And perhaps that's the good news, as the officiating in our game is trending all over social media --- #1 is being compared to Grayson Allen (ouch) --- and even USA Today is already out with a scathing editorial. Talking heads like Bilas are decrying the state of officiating as well --- most of the NCAAT games are devolving into rock-fights --- so MAYBE, just maybe, a cold, hard look will taken at accountabilty. We shall see.....

Oh BTW. After that "physical" rugby game at Clemson this season, I pointed my finger directly at that crew for letting it get out of control. Welp, you may have recognized Kip Kissinger (the bald-headed dude) today from that Clemson crew. And today we also had Brent Hampton --- the schmuck who looks like Groover but not nearly as competent. Lessee if any of them show up in the Sweet-16......

 

[notashelbyfan]

One thing everyone knows about our team and Hubert regardless of what you think about his coach, we are going to do it the right way and with class. That is one of the things that has always been high up on my Carolina meter!

 

[bluetoe]

In the "stuff" thread @FlaTarHeel made the point that we walk into every game with he rep of being "soft". That dates back to the 70s when our culture of playing the game the right way was challenged by first Terry Holland (later followed by the Rat) bringing thuggery into the ACC. Meanwhile the old Big East immediately looked like a NYC playground, and hell, watching any random Big-10 game looks like something that should be played with a puck. In other words, we've been having to overcome that garbage for years.

Back in the 2016 NCAAT, there was an incident before we played Providence during stretching/shoot-around where their players were talking smack within our guys' earshot about UNC being soft and making fun of our "baby blue" colors, etc.. Now, as we know, making Joel Berry mad was a colossally bad idea, just this side of punching Bruce Banner in the face, and you might remember Brice Johnson sending one of their shots into the stands and screaming "GET THE F*** OUTTA MY HOUSE!!!" (fortunately facing away from Roy at the time).

The first point is that we had some tough mofos on that team... as we have had on myriad teams here. Just because we don't play dirty shouldn't mean we're somehow "soft". But sadly, that's what college hoops has devolved into. And the second point is that ultimately, folks, it comes down to officiating. People on a message board can give me all the grief they want, but the simple fact is that NOTHING --- not the best player, best coach, whatever --- can affect a game as greatly as a zebra. Trust me when I tell you, coaching staffs scout zebras as well as opponents.

Sure, they're human and imperfect, but ultimately they have two jobs they should absolutely have to be accountable for --- call the game without an agenda and keep the physical stuff under control. Players will do as much as they can get away with, and refs can either nip thuggery in the bud, or let it fester. The whole country just witnessed today the ugly results of the latter. And perhaps that's the good news, as the officiating in our game is trending all over social media --- #1 is being compared to Grayson Allen (ouch) --- and even USA Today is already out with a scathing editorial. Talking heads like Bilas are decrying the state of officiating as well --- most of the NCAAT games are devolving into rock-fights --- so MAYBE, just maybe, a cold, hard look will taken at accountabilty. We shall see.....

Oh BTW. After that "physical" rugby game at Clemson this season, I pointed my finger directly at that crew for letting it get out of control. Welp, you may have recognized Kip Kissinger (the bald-headed dude) today from that Clemson crew. And today we also had Brent Hampton --- the schmuck who looks like Groover but not nearly as competent. Lessee if any of them show up in the Sweet-16......

spot on.

The NCAA should take over the officiating and train the refs physically to make calls according to the rules, and then rotate them around so that they don't only see one conference. The physical play is a problem but a worse problem is the inconsistency in the officiating. and the officials trying to shape the games. I've been saying this for many years but nobody wants to hear it until their team gets hosed in the tournament.

 

[dlew71]

There is a difference between being physical and being dirty. I am fine with physical, the dirty play....well on an outside court that crap gets dealt with and quick

 

[adwood81]

In the "stuff" thread @FlaTarHeel made the point that we walk into every game with he rep of being "soft". That dates back to the 70s when our culture of playing the game the right way was challenged by first Terry Holland (later followed by the Rat) bringing thuggery into the ACC. Meanwhile the old Big East immediately looked like a NYC playground, and hell, watching any random Big-10 game looks like something that should be played with a puck. In other words, we've been having to overcome that garbage for years.

Back in the 2016 NCAAT, there was an incident before we played Providence during stretching/shoot-around where their players were talking smack within our guys' earshot about UNC being soft and making fun of our "baby blue" colors, etc.. Now, as we know, making Joel Berry mad was a colossally bad idea, just this side of punching Bruce Banner in the face, and you might remember Brice Johnson sending one of their shots into the stands and screaming "GET THE F*** OUTTA MY HOUSE!!!" (fortunately facing away from Roy at the time).

The first point is that we had some tough mofos on that team... as we have had on myriad teams here. Just because we don't play dirty shouldn't mean we're somehow "soft". But sadly, that's what college hoops has devolved into. And the second point is that ultimately, folks, it comes down to officiating. People on a message board can give me all the grief they want, but the simple fact is that NOTHING --- not the best player, best coach, whatever --- can affect a game as greatly as a zebra. Trust me when I tell you, coaching staffs scout zebras as well as opponents.

Sure, they're human and imperfect, but ultimately they have two jobs they should absolutely have to be accountable for --- call the game without an agenda and keep the physical stuff under control. Players will do as much as they can get away with, and refs can either nip thuggery in the bud, or let it fester. The whole country just witnessed today the ugly results of the latter. And perhaps that's the good news, as the officiating in our game is trending all over social media --- #1 is being compared to Grayson Allen (ouch) --- and even USA Today is already out with a scathing editorial. Talking heads like Bilas are decrying the state of officiating as well --- most of the NCAAT games are devolving into rock-fights --- so MAYBE, just maybe, a cold, hard look will taken at accountabilty. We shall see.....

Oh BTW. After that "physical" rugby game at Clemson this season, I pointed my finger directly at that crew for letting it get out of control. Welp, you may have recognized Kip Kissinger (the bald-headed dude) today from that Clemson crew. And today we also had Brent Hampton --- the schmuck who looks like Groover but not nearly as competent. Lessee if any of them show up in the Sweet-16......

I would like for you to be right and see a change but I don’t see it happening. The NCAA is about $$$ and they could care less about seeing the game played clean. I hope our team never devolves to the levels that we saw from Baylor yesterday. Physical yes, mugoing’s,no.

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Accurate comments by all. Watch tape of games from the 20th Century when dribbling
guards would actually get whistled for pushing off to create space, when a defending center would get
whistled for grabbing, holding, and reaching around an opponent. Too high dribbles, carries,
three seconds in the lane......tweet. Old school dude here, but remember the "intentional" fouls near games end
to force foul shots- it's ruining the end game portion; there was (is it still a rule?) a rule where the
fouled player would get shots/his team would get the ball afterwards, no point in fouling now.
21st century games are so littered with end game fouls of "intentional " nature that thirty seconds
of playing time may take eight minutes. The inconsistency and lack of enforcement of the rules
has directly contributed to the kind of shite we saw yesterday.
You wanna watch basketball played with physicality and finesse, not goonery.
Turn on a women's college game.
My wife and l have been having a decades-long discussion, she believes there is a real undercurrent
of biased on-the-take officiating. I have resisted the urge to join her camp, but yesterday when
Brady walked off the floor, she stated, "Watch what happens now, we'll be lucky to win this game".
Sez l: Honey, we're up 25! She replied, "Yeah? Watch!"

 

[CarolinaMagic]

How officials can watch hacking,pushing,and downright dirty play is way beyond me. Mayer knocking Love into the backcourt and then calling backcourt is downright cheating. These officials should be investigated.

 

[Grayhead]

Espn has a nice write up about yesterday's game and officiating. . All of the commentators are throwing shade at those officials

March Madness takeaways, Sunday preview -- UNC's ceiling, bad officiating and what's on tap Sunday

Our panel on what we saw on the first day of the round of 32, and what we expect as the Sweet 16 is set on Sunday.

www.espn.com

 

[r_u_worthy]

I am disappointed that nobody on that 3 man crew could not connect the dots and see that Dennis Rodman lite was the common link in all the “chippiness” during that game. There was some stuff going between he and Brady before he swung the elbow. I want to watch again and look at that a little closer. That guy darn near got Bacot tossed too. Why the stripes let that guy do his stuff is really bad officiating. If they don’t put him in check well you see the results…
. But the “soft” narrative is definitely a thing going back to 70s. Carolina is a finesse team; they play pretty basketball, blah, blah, blah. Well, the best UNC teams can win slugfests too.

 

[Lewis&Miller]

McCoy made a tremendous impact on this game. The officiating was terrible(these refs bought the unintentional looking dirty tactics and Pink Shoes non stop intentional non basketball actions) and nothing could be done about that so Hubert called McCoys number late when this group needed a big shot of toughness/ strength. He came and flipped the physical switch back in the direction of the lite blue. McCoy played some good on ball defense, rebounded, and hit couple free throws. But it was his attitude the team desperately needed.

Not enough credit will be given to McCoy(yeah, he made couple errors) but Carolina does not win the overtime without McCoy slamming the door on the Dookie lite bullying/baiting tactics.

 

[dtodd4475]

I think some in our own fanbase fall victim to the soft narrative at times. I say this due to the many Hubert is "too nice" comments.

That man played for those Pat Riley "Blood in the Garden" Knicks teams. Fought his way every inch of his basketball career even just to get to UNC after Dean politely told him he just wasn't good enough for that level.

Nothing soft about Hubert. Being nice and also tough as nails are not mutually exclusive qualities.

 

[strummingram]

I think some in our own fanbase fall victim to the soft narrative at times. I say this due to the many Hubert is "too nice" comments.

That man played for those Pat Riley "Blood in the Garden" Knicks teams. Fought his way every inch of his basketball career even just to get to UNC after Dean politely told him he just wasn't good enough for that level.

Nothing soft about Hubert. Being nice and also tough as nails are not mutually exclusive qualities.

You don't have to use obscenities and yell like a mental patient to be strong.

 

[midline]

The way the game is officiated has changed for a variety of reasons. First off, they have adjusted to more mimic the NBA. And 2nd, I think they relaxed things to assist in keeping the games moving for TV. In that process, they have lost control. Unless absolutely egregious, walking isn't called. You see many players, use that hop back step with both feet, like Hardin, to shoot a three. It's a walk. But is never called. You apparently can clear out with the off arm. The crossover dribble that folks like to show when it paralyzes a defender? It's palming. But can't remember the last time I saw it called. These days, rarely is a solid screen set. It is a hip check. And they are always moving. Could they get things back under control? Yes. But you would have to go through about half a season with games taking four hours as players realized what they couldn't do. But then you have folks that take advantage of it. They just grab and bump at will knowing that the refs can't call everything and then the game turns into what was seen yesterday. He doesn't play like that anymore, but remember Rick Barnes at Clemson? He knew he didn't have the talent to compete most of the time. So he turned it into a street fight. And it worked for him.

 

[gary-7]

The way the game is officiated has changed for a variety of reasons. First off, they have adjusted to more mimic the NBA. And 2nd, I think they relaxed things to assist in keeping the games moving for TV.

And the irony of that is they have made the game less watchable in the process. The biggest myth that some TV announcers have propagatred is that fans don't want too many whistles. That misses the point. If zebras whistle the contact early, then players either get the message and keep it clean or they foul out. If the refs swallow their whistles, then the dirty team has an advantage.

 

[Lewis&Miller]

Hubert knows his team needs to improve its toughness/fight. Coach Davis showed his self professed positive style in how he addressed his team post game Marquette. He didn't dwell on what they were doing (playing soft/deferring) but implored them by passionately declaring the all clear to push back, elbow back, kick em back, and its ok to swing first. Hubert said he wants the attitude to be "we came here looking for a fight". It was Hubert's old school respectful word to your mother moment. New day.

This blown 25 point lead will be turned into a positive by Monday. We lost Manek(26 points in a 24 minute stretch), lost Caleb(the second critical ball handler), Bacot has got to make free throws, Leaky has to be a viable ball handler/decision maker when pressured. Hubert can get vital short stints from lightly used Styles, Johnson and strength/toughness/a few post fouls from McCoy.

Hubert gets some valuable experience in this win with the need to protect this team from foul trouble. Hubbs now knows we can't win with 60/80% of the starters on the court. He has got to keep them all out of foul trouble next weekend.

 

[WoadBlue]

I would like for you to be right and see a change but I don’t see it happening. The NCAA is about $$$ and they could care less about seeing the game played clean. I hope our team never devolves to the levels that we saw from Baylor yesterday. Physical yes, mugoing’s,no.

The original Big East was indeed a kid's playground rumble. I saw Patrick Ewing strangle a BC player and then watch the officials lecture the BC bench. That was just one of many similar episodes in the violent game played in the BE. And the sad fact is that people in the northeast loved it. The more goonish the games, the more they tuned in.

BE refs got to call games in the NCCAA tournament. BE teams demanded the right to be goons during the NCAA tourney. Georgetown looked unstoppable in the 1984 Final Four only because John Thompson had his largest collection of goons, and they knocked opposing players every which way. Michael Graham got away with things that would have deserved 15 yards in a football game.

 

[WoadBlue]

And the irony of that is they have made the game less watchable in the process. The biggest myth that some TV announcers have propagatred is that fans don't want too many whistles. That misses the point. If zebras whistle the contact early, then players either get the message and keep it clean or they foul out. If the refs swallow their whistles, then the dirty team has an advantage.

If refs had done that in 1984, no Georgetown National Championship. Ditto Arkansas in 1994. Both teams were good, but that good only when refs swallowed whistles for them.

 

[Heelicious]

The original Big East was indeed a kid's playground rumble. I saw Patrick Ewing strangle a BC player and then watch the officials lecture the BC bench. That was just one of many similar episodes in the violent game played in the BE. And the sad fact is that people in the northeast loved it. The more goonish the games, the more they tuned in.

BE refs got to call games in the NCCAA tournament. BE teams demanded the right to be goons during the NCAA tourney. Georgetown looked unstoppable in the 1984 Final Four only because John Thompson had his largest collection of goons, and they knocked opposing players every which way. Michael Graham got away with things that would have deserved 15 yards in a football game.

Remember that for a while only BE conference went to 6 fouls to foul out? Brilliant! How would that work for teams when they go to the NCAA tourney and revert back to 5 fouls? Maybe work on not rewarding thuggery instead.

 

[WoadBlue]

Remember that for a while only BE conference went to 6 fouls to foul out? Brilliant! How would that work for teams when they go to the NCAA tourney and revert back to 5 fouls? Maybe work on not rewarding thuggery instead.

I had forgotten that. They went to 6 for league games and had a campaign to get the NCAA to do likewise.

 

[gary-7]

The original Big East was indeed a kid's playground rumble. I saw Patrick Ewing strangle a BC player and then watch the officials lecture the BC bench. That was just one of many similar episodes in the violent game played in the BE. And the sad fact is that people in the northeast loved it. The more goonish the games, the more they tuned in.

BE refs got to call games in the NCCAA tournament. BE teams demanded the right to be goons during the NCAA tourney. Georgetown looked unstoppable in the 1984 Final Four only because John Thompson had his largest collection of goons, and they knocked opposing players every which way. Michael Graham got away with things that would have deserved 15 yards in a football game.

Pardner, you couldn't have nailed that any more accurately. I remember that all too well. And you're right, they aggressively lobbied to import that thug-ball into the NCAA officiating regime.

Oh, and speaking of refs getting the memo, I feel ya, Izzo. The refs actully called dook for some of their jersey-grabbing shenanigans, and lo and behold, MSU went up 5 late, but after a stern lecture I don't think the zebras got one right after that.

 

[bluetoe]

Pardner, you couldn't have nailed that any more accurately. I remember that all too well. And you're right, they aggressively lobbied to import that thug-ball into the NCAA officiating regime.

Oh, and speaking of refs getting the memo, I feel ya, Izzo. The refs actully called dook for some of their jersey-grabbing shenanigans, and lo and behold, MSU went up 5 late, but after a stern lecture I don't think the zebras got one right after that.

I'm sure you noticed, the rat started in early on the refs.

 

[gary-7]

I'm sure you noticed, the rat started in early on the refs.

Yep, and i'm sure you noticed that it got so obvious that Izzo could only laugh sarcasticaly.

 

[bluetoe]

seriously, in a way I wish the ACC had divorced itself from the NCAA in BB and kept all basketball in house. The basketball in the conference back when only one team could go on to the NCAA was extremely competitive but much more pure than what we are currently seeing. Traveling and carrying was actually called and so were what are now termed touch fouls, yet there wasn't a constant parade of players to the foul line. The problem as I saw it way back then was that an ACC team was at a distinct disadvantage in the NCAA tournament because of the level of physicality allowed AND the forgiveness of unathletic play. It wasn't a matter of toughness or soft play, it was what a team was used to seeing and dealing with.

If you 'let-em'play' types could have seen how good that basketball was, you'd gladly let the refs start keeping things under control even if it meant going through some misery to get there.

 

[gary-7]

If you 'let-em'play' types could have seen how good that basketball was, you'd gladly let the refs start keeping things under control even if it meant going through some misery to get there.

Yep, and announcers like Raftery have aided and abetted that.

 

[Heelicious]

Yep, and i'm sure you noticed that it got so obvious that Izzo could only laugh sarcasticaly.

I’ve thought even before this game- rest assured the officials have gotten the memo. Can you imagine being the official that helps k get legit bounced by not giving him all the close calls?

Imagine the outcry if k and Dook got the hose job UNC got yesterday- and that resulted in rats last game as losing a lead to lose his last game.

Some team is going to need to be up by about 8+ with a minute left to win. Because if it is close, the rat is going to get official help to stay in the tourney.

 

[bluetoe]

Yep, and i'm sure you noticed that it got so obvious that Izzo could only laugh sarcasticaly.

I saw that on replay, with that shove that doesn't get called in most games and that was probably worth an Emmy on the part of the dookie.

I had quit watching by then, because as much as I love to see dook lose, I hate just as much to see them win. I was listening though and I started watching again right after that.

 

[gary-7]

I’ve thought even before this game- rest assured the officials have gotten the memo. Can you imagine being the official that helps k get legit bounced by not giving him all the close calls?

Imagine the outcry if k and Dook got the hose job UNC got yesterday- and that resulted in rats last game as losing a lead to lose his last game.

Some team is going to need to be up by about 8+ with a minute left to win. Because if it is close, the rat is going to get official help to stay in the tourney.

Yep, and ND just got a major zebra-hosng,

 

[Heelicious]

seriously, in a way I wish the ACC had divorced itself from the NCAA in BB and kept all basketball in house. The basketball in the conference back when only one team could go on to the NCAA was extremely competitive but much more pure than what we are currently seeing. Traveling and carrying was actually called and so were what are now termed touch fouls, yet there wasn't a constant parade of players to the foul line. The problem as I saw it way back then was that an ACC team was at a distinct disadvantage in the NCAA tournament because of the level of physicality allowed AND the forgiveness of unathletic play. It wasn't a matter of toughness or soft play, it was what a team was used to seeing and dealing with.

If you 'let-em'play' types could have seen how good that basketball was, you'd gladly let the refs start keeping things under control even if it meant going through some misery to get there.

Great post. FWIW this is pretty much Jay Bilas take too.

 

[Heelicious]

Yep, and ND just got a major zebra-hosng,

Yep, and ND just got a major zebra-hosng,

No doubt. I don’t get how they change late in the game and let an aggressive team get away with multiple blatant muggings.

It doesn’t matter if you make contact with the ball if you also elbow the guys head and put a massive lower body block on the shooter too. It’s a foul.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Don't watch dook play unless it's against us.

 

[gary-7]

No doubt. I don’t get how they change late in the game and let an aggressive team get away with multiple blatant muggings.

It doesn’t matter if you make contact with the ball if you also elbow the guys head and put a massive lower body block on the shooter too. It’s a foul.

Man, I can only hope the negative publicity forces the NCAA to have a come-to-Jesus moment about officiating. And the whole damn state of Texas has become the home of thug-ball. Hell, UT is making Purdue of the Big 10 look "soft". LMAO.

 

[bluetoe]

No doubt. I don’t get how they change late in the game and let an aggressive team get away with multiple blatant muggings.

It doesn’t matter if you make contact with the ball if you also elbow the guys head and put a massive lower body block on the shooter too. It’s a foul.

at the beginning of the dook game, Mich. St. blocked a dook basket, except it wasn't a block. They showed it again and the defender got him around the extended wrist. I don't know which announcer said it, grant hill or raftery, but he said 'well the hand is part of the ball, right?'. I wanted whoever it was to expound on that because I couldn't tell if he was trying to be funny, apologizing for the refs, or was just an idiot. Not only did the defender not get ball, he didn't even get hand. Why not just say the ref blew that one?

I think anyone with much understanding at all knows that the announcers are going to cover things up to keep from upsetting the applecart, unless the subject at hand becomes an item. And while I'm at it, I might as well address the latest intrusion into the game, the interview within the game. What more pure crap are they going to heap on next? It's a dog and pony show and I hate that it is. Give us back the game.

 

[bluetoe]

Great post. FWIW this is pretty much Jay Bilas take too.

thanks. Bilas is that extreme rarity, a good dookie. I would love to read what he says about this

 

[dtodd4475]

When they go to the replay in the NBA for a foul called for hitting the hand on a follow through in last two minutes it is to see if contact was made first on the ball, even a graze. If it is then the hand contact after is not a foul.

I saw the play you referred to, did not hear the commentary, but it was a clear missed call on the fastbreak as the defender got all wrist from behind, just a missed call and an obvious foul. I would guess they were joking ?

 

[Heelicious]

at the beginning of the dook game, Mich. St. blocked a dook basket, except it wasn't a block. They showed it again and the defender got him around the extended wrist. I don't know which announcer said it, grant hill or raftery, but he said 'well the hand is part of the ball, right?'. I wanted whoever it was to expound on that because I couldn't tell if he was trying to be funny, apologizing for the refs, or was just an idiot. Not only did the defender not get ball, he didn't even get hand. Why not just say the ref blew that one?

I think anyone with much understanding at all knows that the announcers are going to cover things up to keep from upsetting the applecart, unless the subject at hand becomes an item. And while I'm at it, I might as well address the latest intrusion into the game, the interview within the game. What more pure crap are they going to heap on next? It's a dog and pony show and I hate that it is. Give us back the game.

I remember that play. Replay showed a hard hit to middle of the guys forearm. About 8 inches from the ball. High in the air where it’s easy to see. I just had to laugh it was so bad. I wouldn’t be laughing if it was my team

 

[bluetoe]

When they go to the replay in the NBA for a foul called for hitting the hand on a follow through in last two minutes it is to see if contact was made first on the ball, even a graze. If it is then the hand contact after is not a foul.

I saw the play you referred to, did not hear the commentary, but it was a clear missed call on the fastbreak as the defender got all wrist from behind, just a missed call and an obvious foul. I would guess they were joking ?

I would like to think so but I honestly couldn't tell. Like I was saying, why not just say that the ref blew it.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

That Flagrant 2 against Manek was criminal.

Sure, it was a foul. And they have been fairly consistent calling a high elbow a Flagrant 1 even when it isn't intentional, so that's what I was expecting.

Compare that with Sochan's blatant effort to injure Bacot. Where was the Flagrant 2 for that? Heck, where was the Flagrant 1?

And then there were the absurd charging calls against Caleb. At least 2 of them should have been no-calls or gone the other way.

 

[2DDIMOND]

That Flagrant 2 against Manek was criminal.

Sure, it was a foul. And they have been fairly consistent calling a high elbow a Flagrant 1 even when it isn't intentional, so that's what I was expecting.

Compare that with Sochan's blatant effort to injure Bacot. Where was the Flagrant 2 for that? Heck, where was the Flagrant 1?

And then there were the absurd charging calls against Caleb. At least 2 of them should have been no-calls or gone the other way.

Refs and Baylor got what they deserved. Justice was served.

 

[bluetoe]

That Flagrant 2 against Manek was criminal.

Sure, it was a foul. And they have been fairly consistent calling a high elbow a Flagrant 1 even when it isn't intentional, so that's what I was expecting.

Compare that with Sochan's blatant effort to injure Bacot. Where was the Flagrant 2 for that? Heck, where was the Flagrant 1?

And then there were the absurd charging calls against Caleb. At least 2 of them should have been no-calls or gone the other way.

on the one under the basket where Caleb barely brushed the guy with his fingertips, the defender flopped like a bitch AND he hadn't gotten set anyway but it was close. In defense of the ref though, he didn't have the TV angle and from where he was it probably looked like an easy charge call. The over-and-back call is the one that should have that ref barred from ever getting any job that would earn him a living.

Manek's foul should have definitely been a flag 1. I would love to hear the refs explanation. Here is the NCAA on the rules...

" A flagrant 1 foul is two shots and the ball and that means excessive in nature or unnecessary or avoidable, uncalled for or not required by the circumstances of the play.

A flagrant 2 foul is two shots and the ball and the player is ejected from the game. The rules committee added more words to describe this scenario, including brutal, harsh or cruel or dangerous or punishing. "

An elbow to the head is considered the same as a punch to the face IF it is done intentionally. An objective observer might consider that Manek's elbow was intentional in light of the chippy context, but there is absolutely no way that intent was actually indicated...and who in their right mind would call it brutal and cruel? Flagrant 1.

 

[dtodd4475]

In live action I immediately thought flagrant 2. If it is deemed an intentional elbow and it lands to the neck or head it is a flagrant 2.

I'm guessing Brady wanted to crack him in the chest? He did glance back after getting shoved, with no call, he did bow up, and he landed to the head. I thought flagrant 2. There was intent, maybe not intended for the head, but that is where it landed.