And number five: Griffin joins the club
- Thread starter tcb22
- Start date
I hate that group is leaving for 3 reasons:
1. We owned them and they accomplished exactly.......nothing!
2. The incoming group appears much better on paper so maybe even Face can't mess them up!
3. If some of them had unexpectedly stayed, the spin doctors would have had a hard time explaining the transfers/schollies taken to make room!
1. We owned them and they accomplished exactly.......nothing!
2. The incoming group appears much better on paper so maybe even Face can't mess them up!
3. If some of them had unexpectedly stayed, the spin doctors would have had a hard time explaining the transfers/schollies taken to make room!
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Don't know that I agree on your #2 TP, I feel like they lose more than they gain from last season.
Lively, we know him, we recruited him hard, he wants to stretch more than bang inside, he is 6'11" 200lbs, really thin. More of a concern is the guy they call flip, he is 6'10" and 235lbs and can actually stretch more than Lively. But Banchero was 6'10" and 250lbs and Williams was a 7ft shot blocking presence that weighted in around 250lbs. They lose a lot of beef inside. They have a 4 star 7" kid that is also pretty thin.
They bring in 2 really talented wings in Mitchel and Whitehead, both in that 6'8" 205lbs range, both good scorers but they lose Moore who was established as not just a guy they got some points from but a real glue guy for them that had a lot of experience. And they have a 4 star kid ranked in the 90s that looks like Joey Beard 2.0. I expect them to plug MItchel and Whitehead in to the 2 and 3 spots, meaning they will have a wing trying to play the 2.
It is an off balanced class because they got talent at the 4 and 5 and wing but the only back court guy was the 6'5" 4star kid. Really, with Keels leaving all they have is Roach and the Blakes kid that didn't give them much last season. That is a weak back court unless they can shore it up from the portal. That is a talented front court but it is thin (size/physical strength wise) and it is all freshman. I just don't see this freshman duke class as being as strong as it is advertised. If Keels stays in the draft it is a huge hit to the dukies, he was the guy you would expect to emerge who could have been their big time threat at the 2 and he covered the point a good bit last season, if he is gone roach is all they have and roach just is not all that. Looks to me like one of the weaker ACC back courts and teams with weak back courts have a real problem in todays game.
I will likely be the only one saying this but I like our incoming class more than duke's (no, not because I am wearing UNC blinders). WE are bringing in a really versatile class where in fact all of them, maybe with the exception of Shaver who has now been in our program since Jan, of guys that can play multiple positions, would agree duke has versatility as well with Whitehead and Mitchel. But our class addresses need at every position. A back up guard for RJ & Love in Trimble, a back up at the 3/4 in Nichel, a potential starter at the 4 to replace our out going starter in Washington, and a back up center in Shaver. When you address with quality talents both areas of need and address ALL floor positions rather that over load on 1 position and leave a position of need unaddressed, you have a solid balanced class that builds depth when you bring back the number of returning players as we will.
They won the ACC regular season and made the final four. I'd say the accomplished something.
And I'd say they didn't, but to each his own. I guess hanging a FF banner is an accomplishment for some, but not for the perennial #1 recruiting class with 5 surefire NBA stars! ACC winner was VT BTW! The reg season counts for zip! To me their greatest accomplishment was ensuring UNC had bragging right over them 4 EVER!
You can argue it anyway you want but with Duke’s personnel this year they underachieved. With our personnel we overachieved. I’m not sure it can be looked at any other way.
Duke loses 5 guys that started and all but 1 is a NBA first round selection, the other guy could end up end of first round but more likely second round. We didn't have anyone considered to be a first round lock, yet we not only beat them we beat them in HUGE stakes games. I am sorry but you don't win the natty, you don't even play in the natty game and you lose 5 guys to the next NBA draft? That can not be considered anything short of under achievement, it is a classic bed wetting!
With that way of thinking, nobody did less with more than Dean E. Smith. Winning the ACC and making the final four with nearly all freshman is a pretty good accomplishment. Draft status means absolutely nothing...
Unless you consider that the times were different; talent more equally spread out; only the winner of the ACC could even go to the Tourney; and many other factors, but peeps can continue to re-write history as they please! How many #1 recruiting classes did DES have? How many of his teams could have won if more than 1 ACC team could go to the dance? Considering the team was under sanctions for a scandal when he took over, I'd say he turned it around pretty quick. BTW: What is the goal here; to protect ratty's tarnished legacy or are we doing the, "you can't say something bad about anyone unless you have never sinned in your life" thing???
DES:
"From 1965 to 1966 onward, Smith's teams never finished worse than tied for third in the ACC.[19] For the first 21 of those years, they did not finish worse than a tie for second. By comparison, during that time the ACC's other charter members each finished last at least once. Smith's first major successes came in the late 1960s, when his teams won consecutive regular-season and ACC tournament championships, and went to three straight Final Fours, going all the way to the national championship game in 1968. They would appear in either the NCAA or NIT in every one of Smith's final 31 years in Chapel Hill. However, this run occurred in the middle of UCLA's stretch of 10 titles in 12 years, and in fact Smith lost to UCLA's John Wooden in the 1968 title game." 1960s through the late 1990s as the premier program without resorting to dirty tactics is enough for me.
It is a little puzzling for someone with Heel in their name to try to disparage DES while propping up the Rat Lord though???? Hmmmm
Meanwhile, true believers everywhere please raise a glass to the end of Lord Ratdemort's rule in Derm! Thanks for the ego driven need for a love fest that gave us the opportunity to end your career with consecutive losses to your most hated rival!
Go Tar Heels!
DES:
"From 1965 to 1966 onward, Smith's teams never finished worse than tied for third in the ACC.[19] For the first 21 of those years, they did not finish worse than a tie for second. By comparison, during that time the ACC's other charter members each finished last at least once. Smith's first major successes came in the late 1960s, when his teams won consecutive regular-season and ACC tournament championships, and went to three straight Final Fours, going all the way to the national championship game in 1968. They would appear in either the NCAA or NIT in every one of Smith's final 31 years in Chapel Hill. However, this run occurred in the middle of UCLA's stretch of 10 titles in 12 years, and in fact Smith lost to UCLA's John Wooden in the 1968 title game." 1960s through the late 1990s as the premier program without resorting to dirty tactics is enough for me.
It is a little puzzling for someone with Heel in their name to try to disparage DES while propping up the Rat Lord though???? Hmmmm
Meanwhile, true believers everywhere please raise a glass to the end of Lord Ratdemort's rule in Derm! Thanks for the ego driven need for a love fest that gave us the opportunity to end your career with consecutive losses to your most hated rival!
Go Tar Heels!
The point is, winning the ACC regular season and making the final four is a major accomplishment. Only winning the natty is better. Just so happens we beat them in the two biggest games in the rivalry this year. None the less, making the final four is the gold standard. You can't deny that.
I agree that winning the ACC Reg Season is an accomplishment. I agree that making the FF is an accomplishment, BUT it is underachieving for a team ranked #1 who had the #1 recruiting class for the last several years! Any time the #1 seed loses to an 8 seed it is underachieving, especially if it is to your hated rival during the last game of a legend's career! ALSO, the point could be made without attempting to disparage DES which will never be accepted by any true Tar Heel! If puke wants to hang reg season and FF banners, have at it, but don't pretend you didn't fall short of expectations and don't pretend you find having no hardware, "acceptable!"
its easy to have that take especially w/ the rivalry and all that, but its still a great accomplishment from a young (3 frosh 2 soph 1 jr) lead team....those kids still went 32-7 and made the F4, w/ a chance.....yall turned it around and that F4 game was a great one and decided in the last minute....of course for 2021-2022 those two banners will be hung as they are a great accomplishment...nattys are hard period...hard for experienced squads and much harder for young squads, if not we'd both have more than 6 and 5 respectively
Oh how the mighty have fallen!
Face will have a hard time holding onto those recruiting banners so he will have to coach a bit to even get the tiny banners indicating FF in the future! "We are so young and inexperienced that the ancient Tar Heels bullied us! Peeps should weep for us having to play with only 8 5* players who only had about 40 games to learn how to play!" I guess it is something to be proud of that they managed to get through the entire game without soiling their diapers! Way to go youngsters, you are such big boys! Grandpa ratty isn't mad at you for sending him home with a losing record against Hubs; he is simply disappointed!
Face will have a hard time holding onto those recruiting banners so he will have to coach a bit to even get the tiny banners indicating FF in the future! "We are so young and inexperienced that the ancient Tar Heels bullied us! Peeps should weep for us having to play with only 8 5* players who only had about 40 games to learn how to play!" I guess it is something to be proud of that they managed to get through the entire game without soiling their diapers! Way to go youngsters, you are such big boys! Grandpa ratty isn't mad at you for sending him home with a losing record against Hubs; he is simply disappointed!
And it will be another decade plus before they hang another ACC banner
OK boogie, let me frame this for ya!
Your dukies started 5 guys (including Keels) and of those 5 starters 4 of them are looking at being drafted 1st round and Keels, either late first or early second round. Holy heck, that is insane, just look at the talent the dukies were able to come with and really, had at most minor injury to have to play thru.
You just don't get to poor mouth when you have that kind of talent, it is like being (or actually acting amazed) amazed that the Dream Team won Olympic gold. When you have the best talent on the planet anything less than gold is under achievement, when you have the best talent by far in the college game and do not win the natty, you under achieved, you wet the bed. Kalipari wet the bed with that team that had Towns coming off that bench and last season, K wet the bed just as bad. The dukies started 5 NBA players, it is like a 5A high school program losing to a 1A.
You don't get to use the "they were inexperienced" line, not when it was that duke coaching staff that intently went away from developing experienced teams so they could be the big dog in the race for pre-season recruiting titles. You got exactly what your coaching staff set out to get, national recruiting titles, we hunt for National Championships, you do remember those don't ya?
puke could take the Slimy route and admit they don't care about winning games or the U, but are only concerned with stockpiling talent and appearing on the NBA Draft day broadcast! That was the most honest statement Slimy has ever uttered! Since I only remember ratty uttering one honest statement in 40+ years (remember, "you are effin' up my program?") I give the nod for character to Slimy by a nose!
BTW: It is hard to win a P*ssing contest when puke now has to sit down to urinate!
BTW: It is hard to win a P*ssing contest when puke now has to sit down to urinate!
buckle up dsouth =)...i am writing like you.....i havent been on here in while..=)
3 of those players were still freshman at the end of the day w/ only experience from that season imo.....im just saying in spite of, they still garnered a 32-7 record and won some big games and gave them selves a chance and came up a tad short, ...now a F4 is a disappointment?...its basketball it goes that way sometimes...we all hunt national championships as the ultimate goal.....i disagree w/ the went away from developing experienced teams, they are still going after and not passing on top talent...top talent today is essentially leaving, it is what it is....are you not gonna go after jayson tatum because you have brandon ingram?...ingram leaving, so you better be prepared imo....from this group keels is the only head scratcher, but its his choice......so yall are getting top players for longer stints, last i checked that hasnt been hugely successful either...winning nattys is tough and if it wasnt our programs would have more than 6 and 5 respectively....i still think the 2015 natty team wasn't the start of your perceived "different approach"....jah was the OAD...Jones and Winslow were not and played their way into paydays....2016..ingram just 1.....2017 tatum and healthy giles were sure fires....giles then had to go to get something before another possible injury...Jackson was the headscratcher.........now i would say 2018 could possibly be the start of your said angle, but again bagley and carter as the two OAD....trent and duvall took there shots and they were one defensive possession from the final 4.......the 2019 squad were rock stars and had a another great season....again a possession from a final four.....2020 one of my favorite groups didn't get a chance due to covid...carey the OAD and Stanley was 20 years old....the 2021 bubble was what it was and Johnson was the OAD and DJ was the headscratcher, but that decision possibly got us Keels so it is what it is.....and now we are here...3 freshman OAD, with keels being the one that would probably be expected to return and they made the final four...so since 2015 natty, 2 E8, 1 F4, and 2 ACCt.......some additional numbers since 2015 natty duke is 219-62 (27-8 per season).....unc 208-84 (26-11 per season)...with our young approach and your developed approach...yall hit lightening in the bucket w/ that meeks/berry/jackson crew as yall got really good kids that really didnt have a place in the nba and they stayed and yall went to back back natty games winning 1...awesome, but after that they had four double digit loss seasons out of the next five (11,19,11,10) and some ugly tournament exits....now you got a squad again in the vein of the 16/17 seasons... what the returners achieve is yet to be seen, although good odds on a very good season next year...your words The dukies started 5 NBA players, it is like a 5A high school program losing to a 1A....is that a slight against your team?...because yall really put it together after a tough start...once yall shortened the rotation and shot a ton of 3's....something yall complained about duke doing
If you write like me you realize the value of paragraphs! LOL
How far back do we need go, I think over the last 10yrs duke had the over all #1 recruiting classes in 7 of those years and was top 3 in the other 3? When you build your roster starting 3-5 1 & D freshmen every year you just can't use the "but we was young" excuse, not when you build in that lack of experience on purpose. It is coaching decision on how to build their rosters.
Now as far as how UNC has done it not being any more successful than how duke has done it, IDK, we have just come off playing in the natty game, I believe that is the 3rd natty game we have been in since duke last played in one? So maybe it just comes down to what you value, we value final 4s and nattys more than recruiting titles?
Yes, we have had some seasons that did not go well, for example you are pretty much a lock to have a bad season when your team sets the new record for games missed by players due to injury as was the case with Roy's next to last team. Since the natty we have got sucked in to a bit more of the 1&D stuff than we prefer but not all of it was expected. We had a situation that is really rare for us, 3 straight seasons with a freshman starting as our PG. That is a problem when your team is geared toward experienced PGs knowing our system completely. And those PGs really didn't have much upper classman help to help teach them, A team trying to run Roy's system struggles with more than 1 freshman starter. Which is exactly why UNC has always tried to build as much experience in to our teams as we can while duke just decided (well K decided) to go in a different direction.
Now I will give ya this much, by being able to put as much talent across all 5 positions as duke has been able to do, you are going to win a ton of regular season games, your guys have done well in the ACCT also. But they play all those regular season games in order to get to the NCAAT. The ACCT has lost a lot of its luster over the last several years for us, it was vital to VT because they had to win the ACCT to get in to the NCAAT. But for teams that already knew they were in about the only real value was some bragging rights but it can also tire your team out or worse injury happen in a game that doesn't matter like it used to. I love when my Heels win ACCTs, totally understand duke fans being proud of them but we can agree they don't mean what they used to mean.
hahahha...i was referring to length =)... i disagree w/ the 3-5 freshman....much closer to 2-3 imo and closer to the 2...from a surefire OAD talent standpoint....and i am getting on board w/ the young excuse to some degree, but veteran experience, does have an edge over young talent...and you are right and deserved credit for the 3 natty games since Dukes last one and I mentioned that, 16/17 yall had some great players that stayed in school and this year/next is shaping up to that again....i feel ya on the unc needs at pg paragraph, but still disagree about the direction that you are trying to assert about K....end of the day, the best talent is sought after imo........i dont buy the ACCt lacking luster, especially after watching that documentary on the tourney, everybody wants that conference crown and fans still pack the tourney to cheer their team on......good convo
Would a team with 4 McDonald's Americans, plus a 5th year Senior be underachievers for not winning it all? At first you said they accomplished nothing, now you admit they did..It doesn't matter how many years they had the number 1 recruiting class, their players always leave, so they always have to schollys to give out. If our squad was all freshman, won the ACC, and made the final four, we would be estatic.
Not me. Happy...I suppose...but cycling different guys through every year with no continuity isn't something I'd ever celebrate.
Take the statement you quoted and tell me I'm lying. Hell dook fans, and UK fans hate the 1ad. It's very difficult to win a natty with 5* upper class men. Winning the ACC regular season and making the final four is one hell of an accomplishment. Stop, just stop, trying to convince yourself it isn't. But, the fact of the matter is, we kicked that ass when it mattered most.
Quibbling over semantics is a bit silly. Especially this many times. Nothing anyone can say will "convince" me that puke's all-star team met its goals! The point is they vastly underachieved. (for a decade!) AND since I am a UNC fan, I think it is asking a bit much for me to "celebrate" the supposed accomplishments of my most hated rival! I want puke in general to lose every game they ever play in everything AND I especially loved that their evil overlord lost before achieving his goals while losing to a lower seeded UNC team with a 1st year coach! (Forever 2-1 is acceptable!)
BTW: Why would a UNC fan fight so hard to get recognition for puke and ratty? (I do thank you for stopping with the disparagement of DES though!)
Since UNC hasn't had an "all freshman" squad in my memory and since it goes against the grain of our coach's philosophy, it is a silly logical stretch. (If UNC only had 2 basketball players, 1 puppy, and 2 ghosts as starters and they got to the FF, I would celebrate it also!) UNC builds teams unlike puke and Kentuck who collect talent! Their philosophy garners headlines, and wins games; ours is designed to build toward Natty's while giving us a Family to support! I think I'll continue to sneer at them and celebrate UNC!
BTW: Why would a UNC fan fight so hard to get recognition for puke and ratty? (I do thank you for stopping with the disparagement of DES though!)
Since UNC hasn't had an "all freshman" squad in my memory and since it goes against the grain of our coach's philosophy, it is a silly logical stretch. (If UNC only had 2 basketball players, 1 puppy, and 2 ghosts as starters and they got to the FF, I would celebrate it also!) UNC builds teams unlike puke and Kentuck who collect talent! Their philosophy garners headlines, and wins games; ours is designed to build toward Natty's while giving us a Family to support! I think I'll continue to sneer at them and celebrate UNC!
Dean will always be my favorite, but he absolutely did less with more, in regards to national success. "should have" won at least 2 more natty's.
You beat me too, I'm sick of the dook apologist around here.
They can go to their site and tell them how great the season was and take this Final-Four edged dagger with them.
Yeah to hell with dook! They suck and underachieved…. End of damn story!!!!
My boogie buddy! LOL
I am a lot like Roy when it comes to the ACCT, it used to be thrilling because the stakes were higher (back in the day ONLY the winner of the ACCT was allowed in to the NCAAT field), it even had higher stakes for teams that knew they were already in the NCAAT because you could radically upgrade your seeding. But now days they use this formula that IMO weighs early season losses way to heavy and it is now much harder to improve your seeding over 1 level.
And boogie, my point on the youth vs experienced players deal is that is the coaches decision to bring in multiple sure fire 1&D guys and not bring in guys expected to stay around for all or much of their eligibility. Yet again, your dukies are having to replace 5 guys that started, did anyone else start for your dukies other than Roach? We get to the natty game and bring back every single one of our key players that had remaining eligibility that played in that natty game. We went Iron 5 and brought back 4 of those 5 and why? It was because they players we got from Caleb/RJ/Puff class had only 1 guy that looked like maybe 1&D (Sharpe). The rest were well respected, Love & Kessler were 5 stars but were more have a chance to be 1&D but really more expect them back. Point being, we get 5 stars that are usually just barely making it in as a 5 star where you get farm the top 5 in a class and would take everyone of them if you could. You just don't build experience when you are moving out 3 to 5 players to the NBA after only 1 season in college. The better talented guy is not always the best fit.
Now with GG and Wilcher, we do have a couple 5 stars that could be expected to be 1&D, GG for sure is.
Now boogie, you know full well you and I are not going to agree on K, I wouldn't expect you to agree on that but I do respect your tack in making your case, that is why I do enjoy going back & forth with ya because you are a respectful guy, yet again KUDOs for that!
I'm not a dook apologist, but feel free to leave.You beat me too, I'm sick of the dook apologist around here.
They can go to their site and tell them how great the season was and take this Final-Four edged dagger with them.
I agree with that, except in regards to me fighting for recognition of rat and crew. I didn't say they didn't underachieve, I said they did accomplish something, and its the truth. If winning the ACC regular season and making the final four isn't a pretty good accomplishment, why oh why are there banners in the Smith Center that read those exact accomplishments? I get the dook hate, but geez dude, you're blinded by your hate perhaps?
Well, they are pretty sensitive over there. Merely pointing out their hypocrisy and their belief that it is better to lose to Carolina then to lose in the NC game shows the delusion that most Dukies have. I really feel sorry for them and think most are probably off their medication.
I said they could feel free to hang the tiny insignificant FF banners if they want. UNC will too! It is something To be celebrated for an 8 seed with a first year coach; multiple blowouts in a season; who lost a starter and their 6th man; with a history of underachieving it should be lauded to the Heavens! For the rat lord on his final season; with all 5 stars; #1 seed; multiple #1 recruiting classes; at full strength with elite depth; and a gaudy 30 win season, it ain't shyte!
BTW: I can see clearly now the rats are gone!
I can see all obstacles in my way!
I can see clearly now the rats are gone!
It's gonna be some bright, bright, bright ,bright,
Tar Heel Days!
BTW: I can see clearly now the rats are gone!
I can see all obstacles in my way!
I can see clearly now the rats are gone!
It's gonna be some bright, bright, bright ,bright,
Tar Heel Days!
Agree Dsouth....the only one in format has been done away since 1973-1974...the ACCt has still been a mainstay premier conference tourney w/ bragging rights still just as strong in my opinion... you keep mentioning 5 guys like they are all freshman...2 of them are upperclassmen that have a place in the league...yes there are 3 freshman, Paolo was the surefire and Griffin close behind, but not so much Keels, which is his decision....to your returnees, Love has a place in the league (athleticism)....leaky and Davis don't, but are very good college players....Bacot is great and I just don't understand why the league isn't that interested....same with Tshibwe from Kentucky, in college he is awesome...in the league he is Bismack Byombo 2.0, he gonna make a killing in NIL this year....again, Duke, well K wasn't gonna deny top talent and pick lesser...hindsight, maybe shoulda woulda could, but who?????...all these attempts ultimate were fruitful, but obviously fell short....and I go back to an older question we have went went youth as late and still been pretty successful, yall have gone with a bit more experience and have had yalls experience and we still sit at 6 and 5 nattys in the grand scheme of things
Well, you’ve got a very experienced Joey “Splinters” Baker coming back. And the number one and still growing class next year, and the year after. Thank goodness the Rat Lord will be gone!
Well, don’t for a moment think those clowns over at Dukie land would agree. They are under the delusion that they had a much better year and that our great team will always be known for blowing a lead. They can’t look past their epic 2 defeats to us at the end of the season (and an 8th NCAA seed against 4 or 5 future NBA first round picks) I really do feel sorry that most (admittedly not all) of them have had too much kool-aid to drink.
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Dean had the worst luck with kids who were stars getting injured during or before the NCAA tourneys. The only loss I remember well that his coaching cost us the natty was the Marquette loss as O’Koren sat at the scorers table while Buckley was allowed to overstay his playing time by about 5 minutes. O’Koren comes in sooner we win that Natty no doubt in my mind. I’m sure there are others but that’s the worst. Dean beat himself in that game. I’m still pissed about it to this day.
I'll conversate.....I dont believe Duke had a much better season...in the totality, it was a 3 win/loss difference.....I am pretty sure both teams had lofty expectations coming into the season....dukes ride was a little smoother imo,....before losing to yall in Cameron, duke had 4 total losses by 9 total points....UNC took some heavy lopsided losses, but righted the ship at the perfect time.....I dont look at the loss in cameron as epic, it has happened before....losing to you guys in the F4 was BIG and kudos to yall for pulling it out, it was a great came...loves shot HUUUGGGEEEE!!!!!....as a duke fan i would say leakys screen was a foul..=)....and the call on Roach against davis late, roach didnt touch him at all and thats how it goes sometimes.....the saving grace was yall didnt hang #7 and I had the belief yall would at halftime....two great seasons w/ very different paths imo
Very subtle shot indeed! Now if we were going to point out all the non called fouls on dook, not only in that game, but over the years, well then, that post would make one of @DSouthr 's posts look like the first 2 words of a 400 page book.
