OOTB's Political Thread . ..

[bluetoe]

Dad used to say locks are for keeping honest people out. In other words someone with ill intent ain’t gonna be stopped by a lock and not by voter id. It’s fairy dust mixed with crystal meth if you believe so. And there is no question biden won the last election. If you want to name the at least three additional states trump actually won then let’s hear it along with the proof. Otherwise you can sydh til it falls off for all I care. I’m just showing a willingness to compromise and find common ground for the overall good. I know that’s crazy talk to you partisan sheep but that’s on you.

there's nothing partisan about wanting to be a good citizen of a country that doesn't tolerate questionable institutions and practices. The first few lines of your post are irrelevant nonsense. Locks keep the honest and the dishonest out if the lock is substantial enough and np other form of egress is provided. Then the honest can use their easily obtained key to gain entry. See how easy that is?

I myself have said a hundred times that Biden won the election according to official count. DUH.. But I have also maintained that the official count is questionable because of the way the election was open to the sort of fraud that @pooponduke posted about. It isn't questioned by you, in my mind probably because the outcome was what you desired.

Again, I'm not talking about States being officially won or lost. WE are talking about what Trump was asking for and whether that was criminal and otherwise wrong.

MY problem with the last election was that it was open to improper ballots being collected and sent in. I am not challenging what happened to them after that, although I'm also not closing my eyes to the possibilities either.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

We need more Mamas and Grandmas like that now, minus the racist part. If we did we probably wouldn't have so many worthless young people running around.

 

[bluetoe]

How did he know the number of potentially "miscounted" votes? He was pretty exact with the number of votes he needed.

lol, are you actually trying to showcase your stupidity? Yes, he was asking for all he needed. He didn't need more than what he was asking to be found. Therefor he stated that that number of votes was what he needed to be found. That indicates to even the moderately intelligent only that the finder shouldn't go to the trouble of finding MORE than what was needed. Jesus.

 

[bluetoe]

We're talking about Trump here. HE is the one who knew there were no legitimate votes to "find." HE is the one who insinuated to Brad Raffensperger that additional votes could be fabricated in his favor in order to change the election results in Georgia.

it never ends with you, does it? All you have is presumption and insinuation. Remember that post where I said I was being honest because I can't read Trump's mind? Thanks for exemplifying your dishonesty in making out like you somehow can.

 

[strummingram]

lol, are you actually trying to showcase your stupidity? Yes, he was asking for all he needed. He didn't need more than what he was asking to be found. Therefor he stated that that number of votes was what he needed to be found. That indicates to even the moderately intelligent only that the finder shouldn't go to the trouble of finding MORE than what was needed. Jesus.

It's too bad that the losers of past elections didn't resort to the same tricks. You don't, technically, lose elections if you refuse to concede and then cast any kind of "doubt" based on your own delusions.

With any luck, the USA would have failed a long time ago if John Adams could have just thrown a temper tantrum when he lost to Thomas Jefferson.

 

[nctransplant]

You have to give DJT credit for knowing the grey areas. Roy Cohn taught him well. Everyone knows what he was trying to do. But, he used juuuust the right kind of language that keeps him safe from the real consequences- like jail. And, when you can escape that, you give all of those who support you the same cover. Then it's just a pissing match and people ignoring any kind of integrity so they can "win" something.

Integrity in any political landscape is a joke.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Exactly what I keep saying. You can assign criminality to asking for a glass of water if you are so inclined. But you can also assume innocence if you see no clear indication to the contrary, and that is a sacred principle of our system of justice and actually the fabric of our culture/society.. Trump is being condemned by his detractors on the basis of insinuation and what he MIGHT have meant, and the latter in spite of words indicating otherwise. I am not going into a rabbit hole to find anything at this point, but I remember from way back then that he had mentioned miscounted votes as what he was trying to obtain.

We ask people to arrive at a reasonable assessment, not look for loopholes.

It's "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond any possible doubt."

Could Trump have merely been asking for another look at the votes? Maybe. But is that the reasonable interpretation?

Thinking that Trump's request to find enough votes to flip the election was an innocent request goes way beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[bluetoe]

It's too bad that the losers of past elections didn't resort to the same tricks. You don't, technically, lose elections if you refuse to concede and then cast any kind of "doubt" based on your own delusions.

With any luck, the USA would have failed a long time ago if John Adams could have just thrown a temper tantrum when he lost to Thomas Jefferson.

would that be similar to the way that Hillary threw a temper tantrum and cried foul when she lost? When she said the election had been stolen? Someone said what if she would have asked for votes to be found somewhere, and she wasn't even the president. So dumb. I wouldn't have thought twice of it, even if she had been. But the better question is what IF she had been. Hmmm?.

 

[Heels Noir]

Yes, he was asking for all he needed. He didn't need more than what he was asking to be found. Therefor he stated that that number of votes was what he needed to be found. That indicates to even the moderately intelligent only that the finder shouldn't go to the trouble of finding MORE than what was needed. Jesus.

You are a moron.

 

[strummingram]

Integrity in any political landscape is a joke.

I can agree with that. Politics was created by civilization, and it does more to harm civilization than anything else... other than organized religion.

 

[blazers]

Easy fix, National holiday for election day. No mail in ballots except for military. Must have ID to vote. More polling places.

Those are good. Some others might help:

- The ID must be free and easy to obtain (assign them in highschool civics class), make them available via post-office or schools, etc.
- National registration/voter-roll. A free ID system will cost $, and audits prove our elections are secure, but if this makes everyone feel better at nite, so be it.

- I personally feel that instead of a holiday you just have multiple days (early voting), since the world doesn't stop, even for holidays.

- But you need mail-in for non-military people too, people who cannot physically make it to their polling places due to job placement (imagine contractors stationed abroad who can't abandon the job for long or afford the flight), immunocompromised, disabled, recovering from illness/surgery, etc. All these people have the right to vote, just like military members.

 

[strummingram]

would that be similar to the way that Hillary threw a temper tantrum and cried foul when she lost? When she said the election had been stolen? Someone said what if she would have asked for votes to be found somewhere, and she wasn't even the president. So dumb. I wouldn't have thought twice of it, even if she had been. But the better question is what IF she had been. Hmmm?.

Well... she DID concede the election and participated in the peaceful transfer of power. Donald Trump has never done that. He never will do that. Hillary didn't leave well enough alone. But, she did concede and told Donald she lost and congratulated him on his win. Trump will NEVER do that. And, if you're behind him you'll follow his lead. And... you do.

 

[nctransplant]

Boeing whistleblower from Kansas is 2nd to die in past 2 months

Joshua Dean, a whistleblower who reported safety concerns at a parts supplier for Boeing's 737 Max jets, has died unexpectedly in an Oklahoma hospital.

www.foxnews.com

The Clintons must own Boeing stock.

 

[heelmanwilm]

there's nothing partisan about wanting to be a good citizen of a country that doesn't tolerate questionable institutions and practices. The first few lines of your post are irrelevant nonsense. Locks keep the honest and the dishonest out if the lock is substantial enough and np other form of egress is provided. Then the honest can use their easily obtained key to gain entry. See how easy that is?

I myself have said a hundred times that Biden won the election according to official count. DUH.. But I have also maintained that the official count is questionable because of the way the election was open to the sort of fraud that @pooponduke posted about. It isn't questioned by you, in my mind probably because the outcome was what you desired.

Again, I'm not talking about States being officially won or lost. WE are talking about what Trump was asking for and whether that was criminal and otherwise wrong.

MY problem with the last election was that it was open to improper ballots being collected and sent in. I am not challenging what happened to them after that, although I'm also not closing my eyes to the possibilities either.

There is absolutely no voter id requirement that would prevent someone from casting a fraudulent ballot that wanted to. . But it’s not a hill I would die on.

 

[bluetoe]

We ask people to arrive at a reasonable assessment, not look for loopholes.

It's "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond any possible doubt."

Could Trump have merely been asking for another look at the votes? Maybe. But is that the reasonable interpretation?

Thinking that Trump's request to find enough votes to flip the election was an innocent request goes way beyond reasonable doubt.

you're way out in left field here. It's assumed innocent until proven otherwise. THEN it's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or not. And not only is guilt not proven beyond ANY doubt (reasonable or otherwise) by insinuation....crime should not even be charged by mere insinuation.

Those who ask what you ask are obviously influenced by their bias. If you really think about it, even though I will admit to bias, my position is based on reason not emotion.

 

[strummingram]

We ask people to arrive at a reasonable assessment, not look for loopholes.

It's "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond any possible doubt."

Could Trump have merely been asking for another look at the votes? Maybe. But is that the reasonable interpretation?

Thinking that Trump's request to find enough votes to flip the election was an innocent request goes way beyond reasonable doubt.

They know that. Trump knows it. It requires humility. And, these people are scared to death that they're "losing their country." Trump, himself, doesn't really care about anything except self-aggrandizing and getting attention. He's just the clown that performs. If he always has an audience, he's good. If he's deprived of his audience, then he's really got a problem. But, that will NEVER happen.

 

[bluetoe]

You are a moron.

coming from you that's a compliment. I notice you as usual have no substantiation. I hope you don't think your words alone carry any weight.

 

[blazers]

There is absolutely no voter id requirement that would prevent someone from casting a fraudulent ballot that wanted to. . But it’s not a hill I would die on.

And auditing, etc show that Impersonation Fraud (which ID is about) is incredibly rare. The ID isn't going move the needle much in terms of making elections more secure. But if it is a compromise to trade for more polling stations, more early voting, etc, then i'm okay with that.

 

[bluetoe]

They know that. Trump knows it. It requires humility. And, these people are scared to death that they're "losing their country." Trump, himself, doesn't really care about anything except self-aggrandizing and getting attention. He's just the clown that performs. If he always has an audience, he's good. If he's deprived of his audience, then he's really got a problem. But, that will NEVER happen.

don't forget the orange skin. Burn him at the stake, he has orange skin and weird hair and an ego. We can't have that.

I want to somehow tear myself away from his hold on me, but the memory of a country run as a country should be run has me in its grip.

 

[nctransplant]

They know that. Trump knows it. It requires humility. And, these people are scared to death that they're "losing their country." Trump, himself, doesn't really care about anything except self-aggrandizing and getting attention. He's just the clown that performs. If he always has an audience, he's good. If he's deprived of his audience, then he's really got a problem. But, that will NEVER happen.

Most sane people in America believe we're headed in the wrong direction.

Heading into 2024, most Americans believe country headed in the wrong direction: POLL

A year before the presidential election, three-quarters of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, according to a new ABC News/Ipsos poll.

abcnews.go.com

 

[blazers]

An "easy to obtain ID" system will be expensive. As of a decade ago:

• Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
• More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
• Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays.
• Requirements for ID should be free - birth certificate, marriage license, etc.

So do you want to put money into fixing that^ in exchange for mandatory ID even though impersonation fraud is tiny?

 

[strummingram]

Most sane people in America believe we're headed in the wrong direction.

Heading into 2024, most Americans believe country headed in the wrong direction: POLL

A year before the presidential election, three-quarters of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, according to a new ABC News/Ipsos poll.

abcnews.go.com

Most sane people? Seriously?

Well, sane is subjective. We'll just have to trust that "God" is in charge and will protect us.

 

[strummingram]

don't forget the orange skin. Burn him at the stake, he has orange skin and weird hair and an ego. We can't have that.

I want to somehow tear myself away from his hold on me, but the memory of a country run as a country should be run has me in its grip.

See? You know. You just pretend you don't know.

 

[nctransplant]

Most sane people? Seriously?

Well, sane is subjective. We'll just have to trust that "God" is in charge and will protect us.

Sane or insane, doesn't matter. People, who don't live on fantasy island like you, believe we are headed in the wrong direction. The vast majority of people. That puts you in the minority. You spout an awful lot of philosophical BS all the while you might be the most judgemental character on this board. Who, other than Trump grabbed you by the puzzy?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Those are good. Some others might help:

- The ID must be free and easy to obtain (assign them in highschool civics class), make them available via post-office or schools, etc.
- National registration/voter-roll. A free ID system will cost $, and audits prove our elections are secure, but if this makes everyone feel better at nite, so be it.

- I personally feel that instead of a holiday you just have multiple days (early voting), since the world doesn't stop, even for holidays.

- But you need mail-in for non-military people too, people who cannot physically make it to their polling places due to job placement (imagine contractors stationed abroad who can't abandon the job for long or afford the flight), immunocompromised, disabled, recovering from illness/surgery, etc. All these people have the right to vote, just like military members.

For years I've been offering a compromise on voter IDs. I would agree to requiring IDs if we make certain every eligible voter gets an ID.

Whenever I propose that compromise, the people screaming for IDs go away.

If they REALLY want election integrity, why don't they jump on that compromise?

Pretty sure it's because they REALLY want R-friendly voter suppression, not election integrity - and assuring that every eligible voter has the required ID doesn't preferentially make it harder for likely-D voters.

 

[bluetoe]

Yea it’s bullshit. “Shall not be infringed” is pretty clear to me. Owing a gun, expressing your opinion, worshipping your god, and voting are all things you should be able to do without being subjected to picture I’d requirements. Imo.

Merriam-Webster

1
: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another
infringe a patent


2
obsolete : DEFEAT, FRUSTRATE

I'm going to keep looking, but so far I haven't found anything that indicates a picture ID to be an infringement. But maybe setting only certain days to vote is such an infringement. Maybe having to actually put pencil to ballot or pull a lever is such an infringement. Maybe they should send someone to find me and ask me to voice my choice...no, having to actually speak might be an infringement.

You have the right to vote. An infringement is something that materially hinders your ability to exercise it. Needing to show an ID does not do that, nor does any other modest requirement designed to keep elections as clean as possible.

The same applies to guns. If showing an ID is an infringement on your right to own one, it's because you shouldn't own one.

 

[bluetoe]

See? You know. You just pretend you don't know.

did this make sense to you as you were keystroking? If so, please elucidate.

 

[strummingram]

Sane or insane, doesn't matter. People, who don't live on fantasy island like you, believe we are headed in the wrong direction. The vast majority of people. That puts you in the minority.

You can convince yourself that anything is true. You're the one that implied "sane people" makes a difference. If it doesn't matter, why make the distinction. And, I hate to do this... but "wrong" is also subjective. When your biggest problems are gay people, trans people and people south of the Rio Grande... your life is gravy. If it's not gravy, it's your own fvck-up... and then blaming them, or whining that "the country is going in the wrong direction" keeps the blame off of you.

 

[nctransplant]

For years I've been offering a compromise on voter IDs. I would agree to requiring IDs if we make certain every eligible voter gets an ID.

Whenever I propose that compromise, the people screaming for IDs go away.

If they REALLY want election integrity, why don't they jump on that compromise?

Pretty sure it's because they REALLY want R-friendly voter suppression, not election integrity - and assuring that every eligible voter has the required ID doesn't preferentially make it harder for likely-D voters.

Do you libs know of a single person who does not already have an ID? I can promise you I live in a more rural and poor county than anyone here and I don't know a soul without one.

 

[strummingram]

did this make sense to you as you were keystroking? If so, please elucidate.

Yes, it did.

 

[blazers]

For years I've been offering a compromise on voter IDs. I would agree to requiring IDs if we make certain every eligible voter gets an ID.

Whenever I propose that compromise, the people screaming for IDs go away.

If they REALLY want election integrity, why don't they jump on that compromise?

Pretty sure it's because they REALLY want R-friendly voter suppression, not election integrity - and assuring that every eligible voter has the required ID doesn't preferentially make it harder for likely-D voters.

There's the rub!

It is important that Americans feel elections are secure.

Unfortunately it is also important for some Americans to disenfranchise others.

 

[pooponduke]

Be as condescending as you like but I still find your tenacious belief that Trump did nothing wrong rather amusing. Aside from the empirical meaning of the word, there is also the insinuation of "finding" something that doesn't even exist, which in this case can be interpreted as creating, falsifying, distorting, embellishing, skewing, etc., the legitimate election results.

My condescension towards you derives from your utter inability to acknowledge that there are more than a dichotomy of answers on almost all these issues. It's not as simple as Trump/R bad and Biden/D good. It also comes from your consistent set of assumptions.

I never have said "that Trump did nothing wrong" and I challenge you to find a post that does. There are many specific examples of specific things that he did that I don't find "wrong", but I have always maintained that he is a narcissistic whining bitch about things who acts like a toddler stomping his feet. He is literally the kid that took his ball and went home. That doesn't mean his policy is wrong. It also doesn't mean that you are free to assume that the plain meaning of a word like "find" somehow morphs into something else because he uttered it.

Pick your truth serum or polygraph operator, or both, I think Trump would absolutely pass with flying colors that he won the last election. It doesn't matter whether he did or didn't (and once again just for the record, he clearly didn't), his belief is that he did. I would also guess that his internal polling showed that he won GA. Thus, he is hard pressed to reconcile himself that he lost GA and if one were to go through the voting procedures used and properly count the valid votes, the GA results would be different. That's almost assuredly his belief.

But when he asks them to "find" the votes, it doesn't mean he is telling them to create or fictitiously add them, that's your belief because you hate the guy and can't stand the thought of him again being president. The easy fix would have been to run anyone competent against him.

 

[nctransplant]

You can convince yourself that anything is true. You're the one that implied "sane people" makes a difference. If it doesn't matter, why make the distinction. And, I hate to do this... but "wrong" is also subjective. When your biggest problems are gay people, trans people and people south of the Rio Grande... your life is gravy. If it's not, it's your own fvck-up... and then blaming them, or whining that "the country is going in the wrong direction" keeps the blame off of you.

I gave you a source, a liberal source in fact and you obviously have a problem with reading comprehension.

 

[strummingram]

I gave you a source, a liberal source in fact and you obviously have a problem with reading comprehension.

If you wanna believe it, be my guest. Things are going okay for me. I mean, life has its pitfalls... but, I'll be fine.

 

[bluetoe]

An "easy to obtain ID" system will be expensive. As of a decade ago:

• Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
• More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
• Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays.
• Requirements for ID should be free - birth certificate, marriage license, etc.

So do you want to put money into fixing that^ in exchange for mandatory ID even though impersonation fraud is tiny?

"So do you want to put money into fixing that^

by God no we don't. We don't waste money like that in this here country, unless you think there's waste in going deeper in debt to the tune of over a trillion a year.

 

[pooponduke]

There's the rub!

It is important that Americans feel elections are secure.

Unfortunately it is also important for some Americans to disenfranchise others.

And there it is. Exactly how does asking someone who is exercising that someone's one and only one vote to show that they are who they say they are disenfranchise anyone? I've already laid out how anyone could easily get a free ID if they made virtually any effort whatsoever. Who is disenfranchised?

 

[bluetoe]

Yes, it did.

I'm not surprised.

 

[nctransplant]

If you wanna believe it, be my guest. Things are going okay for me. I mean, life has its pitfalls... but, I'll be fine.

That's probably how your parents felt.

 

[bluetoe]

There's the rub!

It is important that Americans feel elections are secure.

Unfortunately it is also important for some Americans to disenfranchise others.

and there goes the libblather. Requiring an ID amounts to disenfranchising, just like me not handing you my billfold is robbing you of the money in it.

 

[nctransplant]

There's the rub!

It is important that Americans feel elections are secure.

Unfortunately it is also important for some Americans to disenfranchise others.

I don't give a big fat flying cat sh!t who votes as long as they are an American citizen and registered to vote. Do I really want someone going to the crazy house passing out ballots and helping them vote? No. I also would prefer that those who don't educate themselves on candidates not vote, but they have the right to and I wouldn't want to prevent them from doing so.