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Quid pro quo

Your taxes pay for any health services that you may require.

I would be fine if this were the case, but it's not. My taxes would go to pay for the health services that the whole population would require. And the whole population's taxes would go to pay for the health services that I would require.

What's wrong with letting people pay for their own healthcare as they see fit - as opposed to making everyone pay for each other's healthcare? Should we all start paying a milk tax so that we can all start paying for each other's milk every week too? Seems like those who are lactose intolerant would get a raw deal there.
 
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Whatever is making health care costs become astro-fvcking-nomical needs to be eliminated.
I'd like to see more health insurance choices(a la carte), tort reform, and sales across state lines for a start. I'd also like to see the government get the hell out of it.
 
Where do you think these subsidies for college and single payer money will come from? I'd rather have more money in my paycheck at the end of the month and let me spend it as I wish. I don't want the Government deciding for me. If someone can't afford college I'm sorry but I don't want to pay for it.

The countries that you claim have better health care don't have nearly the population that we do. You can't discount that.

I'm perfectly well aware of how public funding works. When we spend money collectively on certain things, it is spent more efficiently because we have greater bargaining power than we would have as individuals. The problem with your philosophy, is that nobody would ever want to pay taxes for anything. That's why they're mandatory. Because if they weren't we wouldn't never collect a dime.

You are already paying for people to go to college that can't afford it. But you're paying a lot more (it isn't really even close) to subsidize large multinational corporations like Walmart who won't pay their workers a living wage, and use loopholes to avoid paying taxes. Do you seriously believe these companies need the tax breaks? Do they need the federal government to give their workers food stamps because they just can't afford to pay them any more than 7 bucks an hour?

I find it hilarious that people will complain about paying for poor people going to college, while not saying a word about large corporations get BILLIONS of dollars in tax breaks. You don't say a word about the bloated defense contracts that result in shopping mall sized parking lots full of unused equipment that will never see battle. Why bother complaining about the federal government using our tax dollars to line the pockets of billionaires when there might be some poor kid somewhere getting help with his college tuition?...

Here again, I will advocate for my A La Carte tax plan - the individual gets to decide where his personal tax dollars go (by percentages). It would clearly illustrate what tax-paying Americans want to support and what they don't want to support. But that's obviously a pipe dream. So instead I'll beat the drum for the Fair Tax plan.

It's not just the population - as @uncboy10 will probably come back with citizen/doctor ratio. But it's more about the diversity of our country versus the diversity of others. And I'm not talking about race/religion, etc. I'm talking about diversity in values and way of life.

And I'm the immature millennial? You seriously believe that the population at large is capable of making the right decisions as to how to our public money should be spent? Seriously? And you don't think people would choose to spend it on things that will directly benefit them... i.e health care or tuition free college? As opposed to military spending, or infrastructure investment?

What aspect of our diversity do you think would make it harder to implement single payer? Valuing healthcare is pretty common across cultures, I'm confused as to what you're getting at here. Unless you're saying that different ways of life in turn manifest different health problems, therefore certain segments of the population would disproportionately spend more on health care than the rest of the population. There are certainly specific examples, such as black men being on average more salt sensitive, but this stuff largely comes out in the wash as pretty much every ethnic group has something that disproportionately affects them.

I would be fine if this were the case, but it's not. My taxes would go to pay for the health services that the whole population would require. And the whole population's taxes would go to pay for the health services that I would require.

What's wrong with letting people pay for their own healthcare as they see fit - as opposed to making everyone pay for each other's healthcare? Should we all start paying a milk tax so that we can all start paying for each other's milk every week too? Seems like those who are lactose intolerant would get a raw deal there.

Because average people can't afford healthcare when private companies are allowed to gauge people. Private business will charge as much as the market will bear, and when someone's life is on the line, they don't have a damn choice even if an operation is going to bankrupt them. The market is artificially inflated because of the nature of the product. Some percentage of the population will pay any price they can afford, because the alternative is often death.

Sure, some people may pay less in taxes than you do, some people will also use less services than you. For example, I would be paying taxes into single payer, but I haven't been to a Dr. since the last time I got a physical for college.

This gets to the real problem. Some people are ideologically opposed to any amount of their money ever being spent on other people. Ultimately, if you're paying less than you were for health insurance, and you're getting better care, then why would you care about anything else? You pay your taxes, and in exchange you receive free healthcare when you need it.
 
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That's an extremely complicated problem to try to fix. The government has a hard time fixing simple things. I don't really trust them to do anything right when it comes to something that complicated.

You're oversimplifying things IMO. The government successfully executes a tremendous number of complicated procedures simultaneously and at multiple levels of government. We just don't think or talk about them until something goes wrong.

Government is only ineffective because governments are comprised of imperfect individuals. There is no abstract "government" that exists independent from the people who comprise it. The individuals who occupy power within that government, and the individuals underneath them dictate how effective or ineffective a particular government is.

...

Its also a pretty silly tautology for conservatives (in government) to claim government is ineffective when they are a part of that government, and they are actively trying to prevent it from succeeding at anything. Jon Stewart nailed that one awhile back.
 
This gets to the real problem. Some people are ideologically opposed to any amount of their money ever being spent on other people. Ultimately, if you're paying less than you were for health insurance, and you're getting better care, then why would you care about anything else? You pay your taxes, and in exchange you receive free healthcare when you need it.

Yes, if that could be accomplished I'd be in.
 
You're oversimplifying things IMO. The government successfully executes a tremendous number of complicated procedures simultaneously and at multiple levels of government. We just don't think or talk about them until something goes wrong.

Government is only ineffective because governments are comprised of imperfect individuals. There is no abstract "government" that exists independent from the people who comprise it. The individuals who occupy power within that government, and the individuals underneath them dictate how effective or ineffective a particular government is.

...

Its also a pretty silly tautology for conservatives (in government) to claim government is ineffective when they are a part of that government, and they are actively trying to prevent it from succeeding at anything. Jon Stewart nailed that one awhile back.
Now that I know you get your news from Jon Stewart I feel much better.
 
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think there are plenty of outlets that prove the left's obsession with Trump. If he cured cancer they'd find a way to turn it around to him being racist/sexist.
Pretty sure someone posted the same thing about Obama - it’s par the course.
 
You're oversimplifying things IMO. The government successfully executes a tremendous number of complicated procedures simultaneously and at multiple levels of government. We just don't think or talk about them until something goes wrong.
I guess maybe what I should have said was I don't trust them to do it all at one time. I think a more piecemeal approach would be better. Fix something that looks like it causes an issue. If that works then move on to the next thing. When you try to fix something as large as health insurance in one bill, then you wind up with new problems and things that are ineffective. Even democrats will admit that Obamacare has major issues that need to be fixed. Had they done it a little at a time, then a lot of the issues could have been avoided. The GOP needs to take the more piecemeal approach as well, but it appears that they are hell bent on making the same mistakes.

Government is only ineffective because governments are comprised of imperfect individuals. There is no abstract "government" that exists independent from the people who comprise it. The individuals who occupy power within that government, and the individuals underneath them dictate how effective or ineffective a particular government is.
That's true and it's dependent on the voter to put the people in place who can be effective. Unfortunately many, if not most, voters are uninformed and/or too stupid to grasp that concept. In the end the voters get the government they deserve because they are the ones who voted them in.

Its also a pretty silly tautology for conservatives (in government) to claim government is ineffective when they are a part of that government, and they are actively trying to prevent it from succeeding at anything. Jon Stewart nailed that one awhile back.
That's true to some extent, but it's certainly not limited to conservatives. Both sides have no problem doing things that don't help solve problems. There is a reason both sides have extremely low approval numbers in congress.
 
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I guess maybe what I should have said was I don't trust them to do it all at one time. I think a more piecemeal approach would be better. Fix something that looks like it causes an issue. If that works then move on to the next thing. When you try to fix something as large as health insurance in one bill, then you wind up with new problems and things that are ineffective. Even democrats will admit that Obamacare has major issues that need to be fixed. Had they done it a little at a time, then a lot of the issues could have been avoided. The GOP needs to take the more piecemeal approach as well, but it appears that they are hell bent on making the same mistakes.

That's true and it's dependent on the voter to put the people in place who can be effective. Unfortunately many, if not most, voters are uninformed and/or too stupid to grasp that concept. In the end the voters get the government they deserve because they are the ones who voted them in.

That's true to some extent, but it's certainly not limited to conservatives. Both sides have no problem doing things that don't help solve problems. There is a reason both sides have extremely low approval numbers in congress.

I actually would agree that a "piecemeal" approach would be better for certain problems. However some problems are actually so complex that any small adjustment just creates new problems, and you never actually get anywhere. Sometimes you have to completely replace a certain system before you will have any real chance of solving the problem. I believe this is why Obamacare is problematic. It was a step towards single payer but also an attempt to keep a foot on both sides of the door. So we end up only getting the worst of both worlds.

I prefer an engineering method of problem solving more than an iterative one. Iterative problems solving is extremely dangerous when you apply it to the wrong issue. It also is less efficient to try countless different solutions one at a time, and then wait for the results, never knowing for sure if you're even going in the right direction. One small change can alter the effects of every other change you have made up until that point.

Completely agree about the voting public. The founding fathers understood this too, which is why they built a system that is so well insulated against the tyranny of individuals. The American philosophy of government is built upon the assumption that all individuals are corrupt to some extent. Those guys really had their shit together intellectually.

I would argue that liberals suffer from a different tautology. Conservatives don't want government to solve problems, because they're political ideology is founded upon the idea that government can't solve problems. So it undermines their agenda. Liberals on the other hand, don't want government to solve certain problems because their political ideology is built around emphasizing those problems, so they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if we actually solved some of these problems. Real world racial inequity for example is the DNC's best friend. It gives them a political purpose to campaign on.
 
I actually would agree that a "piecemeal" approach would be better for certain problems. However some problems are actually so complex that any small adjustment just creates new problems, and you never actually get anywhere. Sometimes you have to completely replace a certain system before you will have any real chance of solving the problem. I believe this is why Obamacare is problematic. It was a step towards single payer but also an attempt to keep a foot on both sides of the door. So we end up only getting the worst of both worlds.

I prefer an engineering method of problem solving more than an iterative one. Iterative problems solving is extremely dangerous when you apply it to the wrong issue. It also is less efficient to try countless different solutions one at a time, and then wait for the results, never knowing for sure if you're even going in the right direction. One small change can alter the effects of every other change you have made up until that point.

Completely agree about the voting public. The founding fathers understood this too, which is why they built a system that is so well insulated against the tyranny of individuals. The American philosophy of government is built upon the assumption that all individuals are corrupt to some extent. Those guys really had their shit together intellectually.

I would argue that liberals suffer from a different tautology. Conservatives don't want government to solve problems, because they're political ideology is founded upon the idea that government can't solve problems. So it undermines their agenda. Liberals on the other hand, don't want government to solve certain problems because their political ideology is built around emphasizing those problems, so they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if we actually solved some of these problems. Real world racial inequity for example is the DNC's best friend. It gives them a political purpose to campaign on.

 
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This link would be worth your time to read. It paints the clearest picture of how Trump won as any I have read. Be sure and read until the end.

Here's a quote from the article

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”


https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...rump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
 
This link would be worth your time to read. It paints the clearest picture of how Trump won as any I have read. Be sure and read until the end.

Here's a quote from the article

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”


https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...rump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
Sooooo, a Politico article would have us believe we're all racists because they found someone that voted for Trump that used the N word, brilliant. All the mental midgets that watch CNN are swayed by anecdotal evidence, so all I have to do is find just one illegal immigrant murderer and their minds will be changed. Oh wait, that happens all the time but the useful idiots remain unswayed.
 
Sooooo, a Politico article would have us believe we're all racists because they found someone that voted for Trump that used the N word, brilliant. All the mental midgets that watch CNN are swayed by anecdotal evidence, so all I have to do is find just one illegal immigrant murderer and their minds will be changed. Oh wait, that happens all the time but the useful idiots remain unswayed.
Perfect example....
 
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I can hear you snickering in your moms basement. Glad you took the time to reply between the bong hits and video games.
 
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I can hear you snickering in your moms basement. Glad you took the time to reply between the bong hits and video games.

What's wrong with bong hits and video games . . ?


Earlier today :

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This link would be worth your time to read. It paints the clearest picture of how Trump won as any I have read. Be sure and read until the end.

Here's a quote from the article

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”


https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...rump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
That was a great read. The comments were even better.

Trump has been a flat-out liar about a lot of what he campaigned to change. He had a perfect solution/replacement to Obamacare... no, he didn't. He had the perfect solution to foreign policy... no, he didn't. He had no real solutions for ANYTHING! He did have an initiative and incentive to win that election. If I could blame one person for Trump's presidency, I would blame Barack Obama. His big mouth and insults in public about Trump at the dinner that humiliated him was like a divine spark. Trump made it his all-consuming personal mission to show him up for that. He had the ability to market the shit out of himself and what he knew the people wanted to hear. He exploited every bit of it. He's like P.T. Barnum. He's the epitome of modern American celebrity. I don't think he's terribly bright, at least as an intellectual. He lacks the refinement and supreme ability to really bullshit people like Bill Clinton and Obama have. Those guys weave bedazzled yarns that leave other intellectuals actually believing them! They're just as FOS, but they just have a higher level of intellect and inherent ability to bullshit people and seem sincere.
 
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