A lot of arm chair gurus on here all thinking they are experts at detecting that diamond in the rough.
Sterling Manley offered
- Thread starter heels05champs
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1. Again, generalizations can be misleading. While there's little doubt that Huffman is a Joel-James-esque project, that is absolutely NOT true of Stokes, Brooks or Manley. Either of these three could contribute nicely as freshmen... with big upsides... AND they'll be here for more than a year.
2. Tony Bradley isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
3. Roy is NOT in the market for any more 2017 pure Guards/Wings. We have Jalek and Andrew coming in and we're in great roster shape at those positions.
4. That means Roy has at least two more schollies in his pocket --- one reserved for a Washington/Knox/Vanderbilt, one for the first comer of the aforementioned (very good) Bigs.
You and Rose Heel need to do a little research so you don't make fools of yourselves. Huffman is top 100 at 247 and ROCKED (top 30) at Pangos in June.
http://www.pangosaacamp.com/
http://247sports.com/Player/91667/
http://247sports.com/Bolt/UNC-now-has-ACCs-top-2017-recruiting-class-47794360
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How about taking guys who really want to be Tar Heels?
Roy is doing all he can to get guys to the Hill. We should be thankful he has led us through this horrible storm and took us to the Championship Game along the way.
Their are lots of kids that want to be TarHeels. Should they all get a scholie?
I'm sure he is and I love Roy. I love the style of basketball he coaches. But at some point we have to ask WTH is going on?
CC
OK, first, have said this several times and will again, I very strongly believe this offer to Manley has nothing to do with PJ or Knox or Vanderbilt. I believe what this is will be a first come first serve deal between Stokes/Brooks/Manley. Think about it folks, if PJ committed to us today, would you not still want another big man very badly? Has not the want from Tar Heel fans been for 2 bigs to go along with either PJ or Knox? Huffman/Stokes/Brooks/Manley do not take time away from PJ if he were to commit, they actually allow him to take a break at times so he does not have to play 40mins so if anything it is a plus more than minus.
Next, this notion that we have to dip so low to get the big men we need? Sorry folks but that just is where we are, desperate need for bigs and no solid shot at any of the top ones, this is not a new situation for us but pretty much exactly what we all knew going in to this cycle. So what should we do, wring our hands and dither or accept the fact of what we need and who we can get to fill that need and do the best we can with what is available to us?
Me, I prefer not to worry about who we can't have and focus more on who we can and how who we can get may be able to help us. I feel like we have a great back court assembled both for this coming season as well as after, I do not feel we have a great front court going in to this season but we can win with a decent front court if our back court can carry us, I kinda feel like we won that way last season, brice was good but he nor any of our front court guys were dominating big men but our back court play gave our front court room to operate last season and Brice cashed that check.
My point is if we can get solid play from these front court kids it doesn't matter where they were ranked coming in, we can win with them just as we can with Hicks and meeks getting a lot of the PT this coming season. WE want PJ bad, but more than that is the fact we MUST have front court guys with the size to play inside the paint, just getting PJ would not be enough. So Roy has offers out that reflect best we can get at this point so why the shock when reality of where we are is anything but a new situation?
Yeah, Huffman is a project but so are Brooks, Stokes, and Manley. You tell me manley is a far more advanced player than Manley but gary, you can not know that, the kid has been out because of injury for so darn long, even grew couple inches while down with broken legs, how can you tell me Manley is a more advanced player than Huffman?
Folks seem to take what I am saying about Huffman as spin, but think back to when I first starting talking about Huffman, it was before a list of 4 star bigs were shown here and EVERYONE screamed why not offer some of those 4 star bigs, I ALWAYS included HUffman because to me he was as talented if not more than most of that list. I like the kid own his own merits and don't look now but he has jumped up the rankings and had several strong programs offering.
I see a lot of folks trying to compare Huffman to Joel James, first would ask those folks, wouldn't ya love to have Joel james on our roster right now going in to next season? How about going in to 2018, I would love to know we had Joel James going in to the 2018 season, considering before Huffman committed it was nothing but Tony and Luke...BUT in my strong opinion Huffman is a much better talent than Joel. Other than just not understanding the game, the largest issues with Joel was that he just did not play to his size, he was more of a finesse guy than a physical intimidator. From what I see with Huffman, he plays to his size and uses his size to his advantage. We need a big man that does that no matter how many stars line up beside their name. That is not spin folks, that is just what Huffman has, college ready body, runs the court really well for a big man, has juice in his legs that allow him to explode up and flush thru contact, and solid hands.
I'm not saying they will be flops and I'm not saying they won't be superstars. I hardly think that is making a fool of myself. I make absolutely no claim to have talent judging ability and will leave that to coaches like Roy. I will just wait and see rather than making a prediction.
Yeah, this crap has to stop.
Ugh. OK.
'17 may be the 4th straight year that Roy hasn't pulled in a top big (he's never gone more than 2 years without one), but we shouldn't discuss that. Lets just post stuff about how great he is.
CC
So what matters most to you? WHO he brings in or our RECORD? LSU got Simmons didn't they? How'd that work out for them?
Maybe I'm just all washed up but to me a Coaches merit should be how he finishes the season not who he brought in.
Maybe I'm just all washed up but to me a Coaches merit should be how he finishes the season not who he brought in.
Well we did just play in the last national title game didn't we? How many NCAA teams, that did bring in those bigs watched that game on TV rather than play in it?
I actually thought Tony Bradley was a top flight big man? Roy's team is pre-season top 10 going in to this season? Seems to be plenty of how great he is to offer...
The comparisons to big Joel are pointless. We aren't talking about trying to turn a physical specimen into a basketball player.
Any likeness for those who've actually seen these kids to Desmond Hubert? Some of the talk about Huffman reminds me of the talk of Des prior to his arrival.
Any likeness for those who've actually seen these kids to Desmond Hubert? Some of the talk about Huffman reminds me of the talk of Des prior to his arrival.
I love coach williams and i want him here at unc as long as he wants to be here
But he is being out recruited. Not just by ky or dook but nc state, ariz, texas just to name a few. Theres nothing wrong with pointing that out and exploring the reasons.
I'll admit it, i dont like the recent offers. And i'm less than enthusiastic about some of our recruits last few years. Just being honest. To me it seems we're in close to desperation mode on bigs. Maybe i'll be proven wrong. If so noone will be happier than me.
What the next few seasons will be is a showcase for coach to develop some talent and chemistry as other coaches have done with "lesser" talent so to speak. Last year he knocked the ball out of the park in those regards. That team was a culmination of years of development by coach of several players who produced far beyond what i know i expected when they arrived on campus. Maybe it'll happen again.
But he is being out recruited. Not just by ky or dook but nc state, ariz, texas just to name a few. Theres nothing wrong with pointing that out and exploring the reasons.
I'll admit it, i dont like the recent offers. And i'm less than enthusiastic about some of our recruits last few years. Just being honest. To me it seems we're in close to desperation mode on bigs. Maybe i'll be proven wrong. If so noone will be happier than me.
What the next few seasons will be is a showcase for coach to develop some talent and chemistry as other coaches have done with "lesser" talent so to speak. Last year he knocked the ball out of the park in those regards. That team was a culmination of years of development by coach of several players who produced far beyond what i know i expected when they arrived on campus. Maybe it'll happen again.
Did Desmond become a top 30 player at Pangos? Not trying to be a smart arse, said that to get you to think. Right now Huffman is a more physical player than Desmond was. Des never developed any offensive scoring move and truth be told even as a senior seemed scared any time the ball went in his hands, he could not get rid of it quick enough. I don't see that in Huffman at all, I see the opposite, that he plays with a lil bit of nasty, the polar opposite of fear.
I frankly see in Huffman a talent some where in between Alex Stevson and Hicks, I see a kid that I think can have a lot of Hicks style of play (since Hicks soph season). Think about what you have seen from Hicks since his soph season, good bounce in his legs, plays rather physical, does not show a lot of face up game, quiet guy off the court but plays with a lil bit of nasty when he goes up for that flush. Anyone less than ecstatic Hicks will be on our team for this coming season?
OK, so I want you to re-read the last sentence in your post and specifically this part : "by coach of several players who produced far beyond what i know i expected when they arrived on campus." And the result, again in your own words that I also agree with " Last year he knocked the ball out of the park in those regards"
The point is Roy is getting more done with less and while our projected front court may be lesser than we want, it doesn't mean we can not win with it, especially considering the steller back court talent we have and have on the way.
I agree, we are in desperation mode for big men but that does not mean we can't find a gem. Everyone loves Brice Johnson now but I recall when Brice committed to us, folks were not exactly jumping for joy other than the fact we needed a front court guy and got one. But folks were pissed because the didn't get the Zimmer-man or Rabb or one of a few other bigs we offered. It was more, oh joy, we settled for this skinny kid out of South Carolina...
I agree. Hes proven me wrong in the past and i hope he does again. i'm still concerned that hes hearing "no thanks" from the elite big men way more often than i remember.
Dude, if you think either Stokes, Brooks or Manley is "taking what he can get" you might need to start following another sport.
Wow. I have to admit that if we were being objective about this we would be much more apt to calling this "taking what you can get" as opposed to anything else.
All I've read for the past few months including on this board is how- outside of the elite bigs- this class is very very weak for big men. And we aren't even going after the guys in the 30-50 range. These are guys not even in the top 100 for the most part- in a very weak class.
Quite interesting how the narrative changes. People need to stop comparing some of the guys on our roster from last year and this to these guys we are recruiting now. To pretend Brice Johnson fits anywhere in this conversation is laughable. He was a top 30-40 guy with upside written all over him and a 40 inch vertical. We had 6 mc all Americans on the squad last year and people keep saying Roy did "more with less". If recruiting keeps trending this way- then we will find out if that holds true.
All I've read for the past few months including on this board is how- outside of the elite bigs- this class is very very weak for big men. And we aren't even going after the guys in the 30-50 range. These are guys not even in the top 100 for the most part- in a very weak class.
Quite interesting how the narrative changes. People need to stop comparing some of the guys on our roster from last year and this to these guys we are recruiting now. To pretend Brice Johnson fits anywhere in this conversation is laughable. He was a top 30-40 guy with upside written all over him and a 40 inch vertical. We had 6 mc all Americans on the squad last year and people keep saying Roy did "more with less". If recruiting keeps trending this way- then we will find out if that holds true.
Easy. He is. It's a simple matter of basic offensive skills. Takes only about a minute watching to see that. And remember, Manley was well on his way to a very high national ranking when his injury hit.
That being said, I agree that Huffman has a physicality that could portend a very nice upside --- he already has the body to compete, and where better to develop than here?
As I've said on here many times, all but the very top elite Bigs are "projects" to some degree --- it's just the nature of the beast. Hell, even 5*s McCoy and Bamba have considerable offensive work to develop. What I'm saying is that Huffman is still at a stage where it would be unrealistic to expect meaningful contributions as a freshman. On the other hand, Stokes, Manley and Brooks all will.
What matters most? Does he win and run a clean program. That's 1 and 1a on my list.
Sorry but where I have determined Roy's merit? Stop being so darn defensive.
Maybe I should rephrase my concerns and we can discuss or not.
- It appears that Roy is not pulling in the big man talent he has in the past.
- Is this temporary or the new norm?
- If it is the new norm, how do you think Roy will adjust?
CC
Be careful what you read.
And the fact is Brice was a scrawny late-bloomer who most had pegged to friggin USCjr until he blew up over the summer before his Sr year and Roy swooped in. Why am I saying that? Because as a former coach I can tell you that BIG kids tend to mature and "grow into their bodies" later than non-Bigs --- in other words, the Brice path is not uncommon for very tall kids. Ayton is an exceptional freak --- most develop later.
Let's take a look at our current "lower-ranked" targets:
- Stokes is large freaky athlete who was a high-D1 Left Tackle prospect and got into basketball shape late. And he's a better basketball prospect than his older brother who made to to the dadgummed NBA.
- Manley was well on his way to a high ranking when it was derailed by a gruesome Paul George injury.
- Brooks is on the Brice Johnson path as for development. Different body-types but again, he blew up over the summer before his Sr year and now the big boys want him.
Numbered what you wanted to discuss.
1. Well, he did bring in Bradley who is a heck of a talent. But we are still fighting the effects of the "scandal" and will until ALL is cleared. Not to mention idiots like Gotthief saying he is fixing to retire on National TV!
2. I say it is temporary, only time will tell.
3. Roy will always do what is best for UNC and we are dern lucky to have him. While "handlers" are getting more and more involved with these kids, especially the Bigs Roy does not, nor do I want him to, deal with handlers.
jmhho
It is patently apparent many of our fans on this board know little, if anything, about the intricacies of recruiting. Just read this thread.
A poster above mentions Roy being "out recruited". Um, no, kids have a choice among about 350 D1 basketball schools to attend. So we have fewer than 50 top players in any class, and even when some schools have had two fives of AA's or Burgers, they fail to advance as UNC does in the tourney.
Some folks got exercised about a some kid going to WKU...so what. It satisfied his needs.
The thing is UNC has needs in the top 50 and outside the top 50 or 100 as kids are not always rated by position but overall ratings. None of the ratings services tell me anything about a kids heart.
A poster above mentions Roy being "out recruited". Um, no, kids have a choice among about 350 D1 basketball schools to attend. So we have fewer than 50 top players in any class, and even when some schools have had two fives of AA's or Burgers, they fail to advance as UNC does in the tourney.
Some folks got exercised about a some kid going to WKU...so what. It satisfied his needs.
The thing is UNC has needs in the top 50 and outside the top 50 or 100 as kids are not always rated by position but overall ratings. None of the ratings services tell me anything about a kids heart.
I don't think hes being out recuited per se, just going up against some obstacles that are preventing us from getting typical unc type recruits. I think the concern is more than justified when Roy has operated under a certain formula that has been successful since he got here. Recruiting multiple sub 100 players has never been remotely part of that formula. So I get why people around here are concerned. Can it work? Yes it can.. Can it work at Unc under Roys system in this ACC? I have to be honest-I doubt it.
The only big Roy is recruiting that could start next year IMO is Manley, with Brooks a close second. Both would be the 5th option on offense. Thus, Roy could go with a starting 5 as follows assuming Berry and Jackson are gone.
Seventh
Felton---takes over when the Heels need a basket
Pinson
Manley--this kid has some Jamison type moves near the basket
Bradley
This team would be good enough to make the Dance as a 5-6 seed and possibly win 1 game. Two outstanding guards can take you a long way (i.e UConn & Louisville's recent title teams).
I hate to be pessimistic, but I think PJ is Kentucky bound. Knox is our best shot but Duke is the favorite.
Seventh
Felton---takes over when the Heels need a basket
Pinson
Manley--this kid has some Jamison type moves near the basket
Bradley
This team would be good enough to make the Dance as a 5-6 seed and possibly win 1 game. Two outstanding guards can take you a long way (i.e UConn & Louisville's recent title teams).
I hate to be pessimistic, but I think PJ is Kentucky bound. Knox is our best shot but Duke is the favorite.
So what is left? I thought the new list from the NCAA pretty much left mens bball in the clear? Is there more process related stuff or punishment for the items still listed?
CC
2. Let's hope so
3. Roy has been fine so far but I'm wondering, if the trend continues, will we get a lot more of the small ball we've been seeing recently? Will he look to the wings for more of a (school that must not be named) style?
CC
Fair enough, but just for some perspective:
I've mentioned a few times over the years that Roy's recruiting strategy has always been to go after a few select kids who are top players but also come from solid backgrounds (no handlers) --- "Carolina kids". That in itself pares down our elite pool. But before the junk and the OAD madness he could select from that pool enough elite players to form his core. You could expect at least one Burger Boy in each cycle, and sometimes more (Berry/Jackson/Pinson or Meeks/Hicks) supplemented by other good players with high potential (like Brice) and nice role players. If a player here and there was OAD, fine, but he never relied on that, nor should he.
Roy is at least on his way back to that model. The Bradley (McD-AA), BRob and Woods class was a pretty darned good one. Jalek will almost certainly be a Burger Boy, and we're still in on three more who could be, and yes, we have a good chance of getting one out of those.
Moreover, to say that either of Stokes/Brooks/Manley is a "reach" is fundamentally incorrect. These are players who have and/or will be vaulting up the rankings.
Let's say Roy ended up with a class of Felton/Platek/Washington/Brooks/Huffman? That would be a very good and very typical Roy Williams assortment (that would also fill needs), and it would come from the offer pool he is using right now. That would be two elites, two very good 4-year players and an intriguing project with high potential... or even let's go worst-case scenario and replace PJ with either Stokes or Manley? That's STILL a damned effective class. And we're already off to a good start for '18, and add potentially Zion? We're right back in business.
Never mind the record, Mikey! Though it is the true and accurate measure of accomplishment on the court, it is supposedly trumped by what some fans want "right now". Since Roy isn't getting the players some folks want right now, he has obviously lost it and none of what he has achieved (as recently as LAST SEASON) matters a whit.
Never mind that lots of those same type "star" players those same folks wanted right then in the past and dogged Roy when we did not get them - played on teams that ended up winning less and exiting the NCAA earlier than UNC did. That's in the past. Never mind that the UNC commits those people dogged for "not being good enough" went further and achieved more as a team than plenty of those "superstars" some folks thought we "just had to have".
Lotta folks are so tied up in the "right now". "I want what I want right now, darn it!!" Roy is looking ahead and I am certain he will continue to win despite UNC not getting all the players ANY of us think we gotta have.
Condensed version - Some people just aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. And sometimes that might be me. But usually not where UNC basketball is concerned.
When folks talk about Roy being out recruited, I have to ask those folks, do ya really understand why we are not getting the top shelf best of the best big man talents? I mean, we are getting top shelf back court talent, it is front court talent we are struggling with, do you really understand why?
The reason is easy, it is the big time talented big men that are the most likely to be one & done. It is the one & done players that tend to come with handlers and street agents, that have qualifying issues, that at times are looking for back room deals. That is not a 1 size fits all statement but it trends in that direction. You have to ask your self if that is the kind of program you want to see UNC become? Dukies embrace the one & done, they want their program in that direction, Ky started it so they love it. What was it, 2 times in the last 10 years has the national champs had 1 & done players, meaning 80% of the time the national champs do not have one & done players? Do you really want this program to bend in that direction?
I would love for us to be able to snag a one & doner every year but I want it to be a good kid, a kid that will do everything his coach asks him to do while he is here and not feel like he should be team captain and do Roy's job. Clearly we are the perceived opposite of one & done U right now and just as clearly even with all we have been thru for the last several years we just played in the natty game as one & done Us watched it on TV.
It is not as if Roy has not offered top shelf big men but Roy is not going to do some things that would reflect badly on the program if exposed and lord knows we don't need that. Roy is not going to have his version of WWW, he does not want his assistant coaches go out and talk down other programs like a former OKey head coach is known to do for a certain program 10mi down the road from UNC. Roy believes and I agree, we should conduct our program with class, even if others seem unable or unwilling to. I respect that in Roy and I don't want him or any other UNC coach to wallow in the mud even if other programs do. And if that means we have to play in national title games with out former 5 star Micky D big men then so be it...
The reason is easy, it is the big time talented big men that are the most likely to be one & done. It is the one & done players that tend to come with handlers and street agents, that have qualifying issues, that at times are looking for back room deals. That is not a 1 size fits all statement but it trends in that direction. You have to ask your self if that is the kind of program you want to see UNC become? Dukies embrace the one & done, they want their program in that direction, Ky started it so they love it. What was it, 2 times in the last 10 years has the national champs had 1 & done players, meaning 80% of the time the national champs do not have one & done players? Do you really want this program to bend in that direction?
I would love for us to be able to snag a one & doner every year but I want it to be a good kid, a kid that will do everything his coach asks him to do while he is here and not feel like he should be team captain and do Roy's job. Clearly we are the perceived opposite of one & done U right now and just as clearly even with all we have been thru for the last several years we just played in the natty game as one & done Us watched it on TV.
It is not as if Roy has not offered top shelf big men but Roy is not going to do some things that would reflect badly on the program if exposed and lord knows we don't need that. Roy is not going to have his version of WWW, he does not want his assistant coaches go out and talk down other programs like a former OKey head coach is known to do for a certain program 10mi down the road from UNC. Roy believes and I agree, we should conduct our program with class, even if others seem unable or unwilling to. I respect that in Roy and I don't want him or any other UNC coach to wallow in the mud even if other programs do. And if that means we have to play in national title games with out former 5 star Micky D big men then so be it...
I dont know what measuring system
You're using to say coach isnt being out recruited but i'm willing to listen
Last time we had back to back top 5 classes those players won our last title. So theres def a correlation between recruiting rankings and results on the court.
Heres our last 12 class ratings (247)
05 4
06 1
07 not in top 50
08 4
09 3
10 4
11 11
12 5
13 18
14 10
15 not in top 50
16 13
So i may not know these "intricacies". But i'm pretty sure those classes from 05-10 are better than 11-present
I disagree gary and that is fine but we can win with Hicks now and he has not shown more of an offensive arsenal than what I see Huffman show off at Pangos. Hicks so far at his most effective is a close in dunker and the occasional ooops guy and that is what Huffman is for now. Ed Davis was a stick back dunker as a frosh and he played a lot on our natty team and was not as college ready body wise as Huffman. We don't know how well Stokes jump shooting will translate to the college game, you know a 6'9" 235 kid that has good hands and elevates up quickly thru contact translates to the college game. I think Stokes can shoot in college as my personal opinion but I am not so sure about Brooks or Manley because both look a bit on the thin side and I don't see either right now as sure fire bets to come in with a ready to produce face up game and neither seem to have a real strong back to the basket game. BUT that is my opinion, you may see something I don't and that is cool, just means we don't agree and we will have to wait and see that I am right!
But dude, after all that has hit us for the last 5 years to quote back the last 5yrs recruiting as a negative isn't fair? We are coming out of 5 solid years of negative recruiting against us that UNC was going to have tiitle banners pulled down, that UNC was going to get multiple season post season bans, that UNC was going to get hammered with scholly reductions, even many claiming UNC would get the "death penalty". You saw it, we all did, it was actually amazing that Roy and Fed were able to cobble together teams as well as they have, those coaches should be praised for that rather than have it hung on their neck like an anchor.
5 years of constant and never ending negativity by the national media as well as our rivals, did ya honestly think it would all be erased magically the day we got the updated NOA? You knew it would not be and now we see that reality but it didn't change from what you already knew was coming, did it? It is better now but 5yrs of so much aimed at us has lingering effects, will for a few more years actually but it is better now and will get better as time passes. 2018 kids already see us in a better light than 2017 kids did and 2019 we will be in even better position.
Just sayin, you can not look at the last 5yrs of recruiting and say Roy did poorly and to consider what he was having to deal with when trying to bring in top shelf players.
