The Orange
- Thread starter gteeitup
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it will be ugly I am sure, just do it and get it over with already , can't get a recruit thats family member didnt play for the Heels at this point..
But will the NCAA care about that? That's the real question.
You, I, and every rational thinking person that's followed this scandal knows this. But the NCAA could try to save whatever credibility they think they have left and succumb to public pressure. That's what worries me.
All else is irrelevant.
Aside from the scholarship reductions -- 3 lost scholarships for 4 years for men's basketball -- it's not that bad. Maybe the postseason bans stings a little, too.
Probation? Meh.
Vacated wins? Meh. A penalty on paper only.
Fines? Meh. It's big business.
9-game suspension for Boeheim? Meh. So he won't be there for their first 9 patsies?
Recruiting restrictions? Meh.
Those scholarships are really going to hurt, though.
Probation? Meh.
Vacated wins? Meh. A penalty on paper only.
Fines? Meh. It's big business.
9-game suspension for Boeheim? Meh. So he won't be there for their first 9 patsies?
Recruiting restrictions? Meh.
Those scholarships are really going to hurt, though.
Self imposing a post season ban in a year that they weren't going to make the tournament in anyways? If that's supposed to lessen the blow from the NCAA, lets just have Roy sit out the first half against some cupcake next year and tell the NCAA we self-imposed and they can leave now?
I dunno what happened at Syracuse, but if they self-imposed the post-season and still got this hit (this fast), then something must have really gone wrong, from an athletics perspective.
I don't think this guarantees anything about UNC, either. The NCAA is actually complicit in the AFAM situation. I don't see anything coming from that. The more time goes by with no outcome, the better.
I don't think this guarantees anything about UNC, either. The NCAA is actually complicit in the AFAM situation. I don't see anything coming from that. The more time goes by with no outcome, the better.
Horsesh*t.
There was no effort within the UNC basketball program to cut corners, nor to "steer" players. Only the football program committed actual NCAA infractions. The only remote taint with basketball was during Doherty's tenure of not acting on some red flags about too many players gravitating to AFAM courses and majors. That is far from a culpable offense. Not that the NCAA is above inventing things from time to time, but that would be a hugely unwarranted stretch.
And that's what we need to be worried about. That, and the fact that the NCAA is experiencing and would experience public outcry if UNC doesn't receive some type of punishment. Even if they were trying to not punish us (which some delusional people think), I don't think they would risk tarnishing their already tarnished image any further.
I agree that the NCAA may not have any qualms with unjustly screwing over a program, to try to save face (that makes me laugh - NCAA is a JOKE).... but if they do that, then UNC should refuse the punishment and take the case to federal court.
I haven't followed all the UNC details as closely as many on this board have, but I trust that a lot of what "exists" to this story in the media and in the culture's impression, is based on rumors, emotions, hatred/envy for UNC athletics, "scores to settle" by wackos (Rashad McCants, etc). Very little if any provable facts of any wrongdoing by the UNC basketball program. The NCAA has no right to placate to the media culture impression / opinion. They are required to deal in fact. They can't just say, "well we heard this, and we think that, and this pattern of classes looks fishy, therefore, we are crucifying your program".
On the other hand, in the Orange example, it appears that they have known factual serious repeated wrongdoings. Comparing the Heels and Orange situation is comparing apples and oranges.
I'm all for abolishing the NCAA entirely. They are answerable to no one. I'd be very content with just the conferences. The NCAA is culpable to almost everything that they are penalizing anyway. The NCAA makes billions of dollars off of these kids and these scholastic institutions. And, this token display of "keeping it clean" is such a blatant dumpster fire of hypocrisy that I don't know how people ever take it seriously or legitimately on ANY level! I truly don't. The NCAA is just as complicit as anything in creating this whole false chasm of "amateur athletics" anyway. It's not amateur at all. When I played Little League baseball at age 12, my team was sponsored by a local drugstore! Amateur is sandlot kids after school, during summer break, or gymnasium pick-up games. Pretending otherwise is just lying to yourself and each other.
How many times have you EVER watch a collegiate, or even high school, sport game (any sport) and asked "I wonder what the teams average GPA is this semester? You think that kid has studied for his upcoming exam?" For me? NEVER!
I don't know of an easy, good solution, but in these instances, I always feel worst for the underclassmen in the program, who likely did nothing wrong, but get harshly penalized.
I hope they are all able to transfer withouth losing eligibility or sitting a year. Even then, these underclassmen kids are in a worse position for fitting in, than if they had originally gone to the school they will transfer to.
I hope they are all able to transfer withouth losing eligibility or sitting a year. Even then, these underclassmen kids are in a worse position for fitting in, than if they had originally gone to the school they will transfer to.
The NCAA has certainly lost face since that jackwagon Emmert took over. The good precedent though is that they resisted the LOUD public outcry over the Cam Newton nonsense because when the actual facts were examined there was nothing there concerning Auburn. It was largely a non-scandal ginned up by the school that actually tried to offer his Dad money (Miss.State) in order to try to save their asses, and amplified by the very loud Auburn-haters (bama/uga types) whose vitriol probably exceeds even ABCers. Kudos, btw, to Gene Chizik for how he handled that episode. I sort of wish Roy would take a similar positive stance, as much of it is PR intensive. However, he thing that makes it tough for Roy is that something actually did happen at UNC, and although it shouldn't taint the integrity of the basketball program, it looks bad from outside and puts Roy in a no-win situation with the media.
My mistake. You're correct, thanks for catching that. That's obviously more serious than just sitting the first 9 games of the season.
What a basketball-only, head-in-the-sand response. Have you bothered to read the Wainstein report?:
A good number of these student-athletes were "steered" to the AFAM paper
classes by certain academic counselors in ASPSA. This steering was most
prevalent among the counselors for the revenue sports of football and men's
basketball.
Unless they are going to go back and punish UNC for slackness in the Doherty era... how is that "head in the sand"?
I did bother to read it, and I see nothing in there that smacks of any NCAA violation from Roy's (or Dean's) tenure.
This thing (as far as athletics are concerned) originated in the football program which perpetrated a willful attempt to cut academic corners.
As far as basketball, there's nothing wrong per se with taking some crip courses to maintain a GPA. No one there was trying to facilitate bogus coursework. The problem with the courses was from the department.
Google the NCAA release and find what Cuse was nailed FOR and you'll probably realize its a soup-to-nuts comparison.
Their Staff members were actively involved in the violations.
There was a booster involved in paying off players/recruits that had access to a $300K slush fund.
Boeheim hired a friendl/AAU Coach to run his Compliance operation and then ignored what he was doing.
Staff members were using player e-mail accounts to send in actual classwork in the players 'names.
Cuse was asked to investigate what happened and told the NCAA they had thoroughly investigated the allegations and found no violations.
Now does anyone care to compare that to what happened at UNC?
Their Staff members were actively involved in the violations.
There was a booster involved in paying off players/recruits that had access to a $300K slush fund.
Boeheim hired a friendl/AAU Coach to run his Compliance operation and then ignored what he was doing.
Staff members were using player e-mail accounts to send in actual classwork in the players 'names.
Cuse was asked to investigate what happened and told the NCAA they had thoroughly investigated the allegations and found no violations.
Now does anyone care to compare that to what happened at UNC?
^This.
Just finished reading the NCAA report on Cuse... and Good googly-moogly!
Comparing that to UNC basketball is like Nuclear missiles to BBs.
No, you obviously didn't. I just posted a quote from the WR that directly contradicts your claim that MBB didn't steer players. So either you're being intentionally obtuse, or you didn't read the report. Either way, you're wrong.
Again, don't tell me you read the WR and then make an asinine comment like this. Not only did the classes not "originate in the football program" -- whatever the heck that means, since responsibility for course design and content resides within the academic administration -- but the first reported enrollments in the irregular independent studies classes included three men's basketball players and one football player.
SU got hammered. This has a HUGE effect on UNC going forward. The negative recruiting will even get worse now, with coaches pointing out what just happened to SU. No matter it is comparing apples to oranges (ha ha, get it), the fact is a lot of kids will believe the lies from aholes like Doreen in football and others in basketball.
The Syracuse infractions seem worse to me. We may get hit hard, but I don't think it will be as hard as Syracuse.
Nice to see everything we post here is being copied to the kitty kat board. Exactly how they can be so self righteous is beyond me. How soon they forget SIX TIMES ON PROBATION.
Copy away kitty kats.
Copy away kitty kats.
The way you're correcting Gary makes it seem as if you want the basketball program to take a hit just so it's not all blamed on football.
Let me ask you, if UNC had the choice of heaping all of this on the football team OR having to split the sanctions with UNC basketball (that could result in the removal of a banner), what would your vote be for?
Not at all. I'm just correcting his ridiculous notion that the improprieties only occured within the football program. They also occurred in men's basketball, women's basketball, etc.
Oh stop it. What I want are fair and equitable rulings based on the best information available. That isn't necessarily the Wainstein Report, and I hope that the interviews the NCAA has been conducting have clarified some of the discrepancies in the report. Everything I've read seems to indicate that men's basketball has less to worry about than football, while the women's basketball team is most at jeopardy because of Boxhill's involvement.
What all that means, though, is impossible to tell because of the involvement of non-athletes and the NCAA's limited purview regarding academic matters. Combine that with their inconsistent rulings and it's anybody's guess what will happen.
This post was edited on 3/6 6:03 PM by Raising Heel
gary7,
That guy is a real clown. He wants to police everything said around here.
He's smart and everyone else is dumb.
[/B]
If you say so.
We're welcome to say whatever we want here, assuming we abide by the board rules (which prohibit personal attacks, by the way
Would you like to contradict anything I've said here? By all means, have at it. But if you're just lashing out because I hurt your feelings in the other thread, then the "ignore" button is on the left.
The solution, purely from an eligibility and academic standpoint (not from a money-making standpoint - cash cow the NCAA is, after all, for basketball and football) is to do what hockey does... have a Juniors league for the kids that want to gravitate towards that and be pseudo-pros from the age of 16 until they are either ready for the pros or ready for real life after hockey, and save NCAA Hockey for the kids that actually want to be... wait for it... STUDENT athletes.
Yes, I realize that NCAA hockey is nowhere near as popular as NCAA Basketball nationally (it is though, mostly, for the schools that have D1 hockey - and in same cases much more popular than their basketball programs even though typically the best 18, 19, 20 year olds are NOT playing NCAA hockey)... but, at the same time, Junior hockey is incredibly popular in Canada, which has a hockey first mentality, so something like that could be successful here in the US for other sports.
And, let's face it, yes, there are some great student athletes in many sports... but the vast majority of premier DI NCAA basketball recruits have no business being actual students at the institutions they represent from an academic qualifications standpoint... so, so long as that fact is true, you are always going to have these types of situations where academic impropriety takes place, because, under normal circumstances, the athletes just can't hack it.
Lastly, and as a complete aside, I took a real, legit AFAM class in Spring 2007 (my senior year) at UNC to fulfill one of the diversity requirements (my wife took the same class with me). Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington were both in the class, as were a few football players. (Surry Wood and Dewey Burke were in probably ⅔ of my classes, but that's another story) I thought it was mostly easier than pretty much all of my core classes - because it was mostly memorization of what was covered in class - but it was an intro class, so by all rights it should have been easier. But, it had legitimate assignments, exams, and real work.
I noticed that Ty, specifically, was there almost all of the time (not always, of course, due to games and such) Obviously to lump ALL of these AFAM classes that athletes took as being "fake" or whatever - because I'm sure this class would show up on whatever search those that are trying to put a black eye on the program come up with - is simply not true.
This post was edited on 3/10 7:29 PM by razzaba
Yes, I realize that NCAA hockey is nowhere near as popular as NCAA Basketball nationally (it is though, mostly, for the schools that have D1 hockey - and in same cases much more popular than their basketball programs even though typically the best 18, 19, 20 year olds are NOT playing NCAA hockey)... but, at the same time, Junior hockey is incredibly popular in Canada, which has a hockey first mentality, so something like that could be successful here in the US for other sports.
And, let's face it, yes, there are some great student athletes in many sports... but the vast majority of premier DI NCAA basketball recruits have no business being actual students at the institutions they represent from an academic qualifications standpoint... so, so long as that fact is true, you are always going to have these types of situations where academic impropriety takes place, because, under normal circumstances, the athletes just can't hack it.
Lastly, and as a complete aside, I took a real, legit AFAM class in Spring 2007 (my senior year) at UNC to fulfill one of the diversity requirements (my wife took the same class with me). Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington were both in the class, as were a few football players. (Surry Wood and Dewey Burke were in probably ⅔ of my classes, but that's another story) I thought it was mostly easier than pretty much all of my core classes - because it was mostly memorization of what was covered in class - but it was an intro class, so by all rights it should have been easier. But, it had legitimate assignments, exams, and real work.
I noticed that Ty, specifically, was there almost all of the time (not always, of course, due to games and such) Obviously to lump ALL of these AFAM classes that athletes took as being "fake" or whatever - because I'm sure this class would show up on whatever search those that are trying to put a black eye on the program come up with - is simply not true.
This post was edited on 3/10 7:29 PM by razzaba
Need to start prosecuting or fine heavily the subjects in the wrong, including former athletes and administrators if the situations warrant that action. Terminate employees involved, clean them out . Instead athletes that roll on their schools go free, and kids coming in, or already in school pay the price. It's like going across the street and punching your neighbor out, moving away, reporting it to the police years later, and they go arrest the guy who moved in your house and make him do the time.
This post was edited on 3/10 10:27 PM by ecu4
This post was edited on 3/10 10:27 PM by ecu4
I've said for years that schools should sue players and former players who take bribes from agents or boosters. Those players choose to do what is wrong, and almost 100% of the time they skate away while the school and the next round of players pay the price.
I think that for some of those offenses, especially on the part of agents and boosters, jail time should be on the table.
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