..,.and I asserted that JWash could potentially have a bigger role than you are imagining.
That's my point. You're welcome to yours.
A Closer Look at Best Available Big Men in the Portal
- Thread starter andrew jones
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That's my point. You're welcome to yours.
Let me see if I understand what you are saying, even thou we have not seen any back to the basket game from Jalen he must still be a 5? Even thou Jalen has shown us that jump shot and shown it out to 3pt range, he is a 5? I am not intrigued by Jalen's shooting, not intrigued by his ability to hit 3pts shots really well, intrigued infers a mystery, I see no mystery in Jalen's ability to jump shoot. Are we really back to sample size again concerning the guys jumpers? I am curious, do you suggest the 3pt distance is shorter when we played Riverside, Charleston Southern, or ND? That it is some how a easier shot depending on the team we play? A kid that averages 8mins a game and we down grade him because he doesn't shoot every time he touches the ball, I thought we used to praise a player for that?
I am trying to recall when Jalen's jump shot that is season was altered by a defender, I don't recall one, clearly it must have happened often but I didn't notice it? Remind me again what a stretch 4 is, because I actually it was a big man that could step outside and hit jump shots, I really did think that was what the word STRETCH stood for? WE can talk about defense in another post but this post I am replying is questioning Jalen's ability to play on a winning team offensively. The biggest issue that I see with Jalen offensively is he has a habit of turning in to the lane and trying to take a power dribble and gets stripped, other wise I wanted and still want him to look for his shooting more and the back to the basket game is not his strength. Now if Jalen were to develop a nice little jump hook with both hands, maybe.
So, are now assuming that neither Jalen or Cadeau will develop at all this off season, that next season they will basically be the same players? Cadeau is not going to be a scoring threat, well maybe it is just that Cadeau will never be a decent jump shooter, that no development will occur? LOL
Deon was a below the rim big, needed 2 steps at least to barely dunk the ball, in no way do I see a comparison to Deon and Jalen and frankly, I see them playing in very different roles, remind me again how many treys Deon had for his career, Deon was a mid range jump shooter? Simply put players fit roles differently than others, makes more sense to me to compare player than to compare roles, else any player we ever have will fail in the Hansbourgh role.
Deon very likely played more games in high school than Jalen did, maybe he had more opportunity to learn proper foot work not having to spend all his time rehabbing from injury? Deon had a nice career for us but he had a heck of a lot more opportunity to show what he could do in game minutes than Jalen as had, Deon was not playing behind a Amondo Bacot either was he?
I agree, what I may suggest Jalen "MAY" do next season or after is speculation but it is just as much speculation to say that he can't, that cuts BOTH WAYS! All I am saying or have said is that he CAN, I have not said he will yet I constantly read comments here that flatly say not just that he can not but that he will not and I take issue with that.
THANK YOU, Deon took time to develop and Jalen needs that as well.
The whole conversation was weather J Wash was a better offensive player than Deon, and I answered it as strongly as I can that NO, he has not been better in any way up to this point.
I hope by this time next year that I can just as strongly argue that JWASH is the better player, and if he is then, I WILL.
This isn't football. You can't just talk about one side of the floor as if the player doesn't have to play the other side.
A stretch 4 has to be able to defend the modern stretch 4. He needs to be able to chase guys around screens, close out on shooters, stay in front of players driving to the rim, defend the pick and roll. He needs to be able to guard the Ingrams, Maneks, and Bancheros. Washington can not do any of that.
That's why Jalen Washington is a stretch 5. He's a center with a jumpshot. Because he does not possess the ability to defend the modern stretch 4 position. You're being disingenuous when you pretend a jumpshot is all it takes to make a tall player into a stretch 4. And considering how many centers in the NBA now possess jumpshots, and how well known it is that Jalen can't defend outside of the paint, it's kind of weird you keep trying to insist he's a stretch 4.
Could Jalen be the next Brady Manuk?
Before you blow beer out your nose, why not? Play him that way early in the season and see what happens. He isn't as quick as Brady but he's a bit taller and longer, so that may be a wash when he's shooting.
As you say, we see his height and think that means he has to play inside. But why?
Obviously if he isn't going to play most of his minutes inside, we need someone who can. Are High and Brown going to be enough? Not knocking them, but it seems unlikely this year.
Not a good comparison, Jalen can shoot it a little bit but no way can he move & cut like Manek to get open. Not the same type of player. I could see Jalen as a right handed Sam Perkins if he gets a little stronger.
Before anyone loses their mind, in no way am I saying Jalen will be an All American, I’m just saying his game is more similar to Perkins than Manek.
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You seem pretty connected, this may be a dumb question if this isn't true....saw a rumor (confirmed) of Calipari being Arkansas next coach....if true, did UNC ever have a chance with Jayden Quaintance ?
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I had to do a double-take on the Cal to arky stuff --- and I claim no knowledge as to truth or fiction.
With that said --- and this came up in a discussion a while back --- Cal's uk contract is loaded in hs favor in that he can actually pick up and leave with no reverse buyout, but if they fire then him the buyout is enormous.
Now, normally leaving for arky would be absurd... but given that many uk fans and some PTBs want to be rid of him, and arky would likely break him off big-time, it would make for a graceful parting for both sides, as now the big buyout goes away.
Again, I dunno what to make of it, but some folks are making a lot of noise.
As for the kid from WOG, we typically shy away from there, and I don't recall any serious involvement.
Maybe. He has to be much better rebounding and defending. He's a good offensive player, but that's not really what we need at the center position.
I'd take Vlad Goldin personally. He may not be available, but I'd try to upgrade over Wash.
He's laterally slow and doesn't seem like he has much frame to add weight. Those are hard limitations to overcome.
I can’t wait for Washington to start. I think he’s the perfect 5 for us. As a starter he will get about 10 touches and he will shoot about 55% from the field. I think he will average a double double in around 25 minutes a game. Washington is currently just as polished as bacot, if not more on the offensive end. With some added muscle, he should fill in nicely. Lastly, he’s already shown us he can be an above average shot blocker. I think his comparison is a lengthy garrison brooks rather than Deon.
Respectfully, we are talking about Washington and not everyone else. Every game Washington saw 12 minutes of action or more he averaged at least 5 rebounds. So I really don’t think think it’s far-fetched for him to achieve 10 rebounds in double the minutes with another year under his belt. I also don’t remember our last center who didn’t flirt with a double-double. Also given the fact we want to run a system with 4 out, seems very possible.
You don't want to answer the question because you know it will prove just how outlandish your prediction is.
Lets get Clifford Omoruyi.. A real rim protector!! Would also take Great Osobor, but he is only 6'8. Lets get both!
Brandon Garrison has lots of potential. A freshman and averaged 1.5bpg. Great size!
Brandon Garrison has lots of potential. A freshman and averaged 1.5bpg. Great size!
I fully agree that what we have seen from Jalen is not as consistently good even offensively as Deon was for his full career. But keep in mind that Deon's career spans 4 seasons and folks don't think of him as a freshman, they think of Deon in terms of his last couple seasons. Deon didn't come to UNC after 2 knee surgerys like Jalen did which of course has Jalen well behind Deon's time line. But this season I watched Jalen do things I NEVER saw Deon do, Jalen in my view has a whole lot more upside that Deon had.
A straight conversion of this year's per-40 numbers to 25 minutes puts Jalen at
11.6 points
7.7 rebounds
Before anyone gets too discouraged by that, here are Armando's numbers converted to 25 minutes
12.0 points
8.4 rebounds
Closer than I thought.
Now there are plenty of caveats you can throw at that. But Washington wasn't a scrub who only played against other teams' scrubs. So per-40 numbers are a better measure for him than most players who got short minutes.
The biggest concern may be stamina. Jalen averaged 8.3 minutes per game. The most he played all season was 16 minutes against very creampuffy Charleston Southern which we clobbered by 45 points.
So . . . like everybody has been saying, he needs to muscle up and add stamina over the summer.
I assume the coaching staff has a clear idea if he can do that. Does anybody know what they think?
If he can add enough strength and stamina, he's a starter-quality player - and we need a strong backup from the portal. If not, he's a very good backup - and we need a strong starter from the portal.
Gary, this looks like a done deal of Cal to Arky, does make me really wonder what Arky has to be thinking. But Ky and their AD may have had some strong closed door meetings with Cal and laid out that they will go along with a cover story but that quietly his agent needed to find him a landing spot now because the Ky fan base is in total revolt.
Well, arky has some scuzzy rich alums willing to foot the bill and they're social-climbers --- plus uk has raided their state for players, so perhaps they think its payback...
This article lists 11 contenders for the UK position (according to them). Several of the brightest lights, including a few surprises.
Their top pick is Baylor's Scott drew, followed by 3 guys who aren't coaching in college any more, starting with Jay Wright. Half the names seem implausible, but it's still an interesting list.
Considering the lateral movement issue is a direct result of his HS injuries, that is precisely something that can improve significantly.
First, I want to say clearly, there are not 2 camps on this question of Jalen because it seems like folk are wanting to divide up in to 2 camps. It is either Jalen will never be a starter or Jalen will start for us next season and I can not hook up to either of those camp sites. That isn't what I have been saying for a solid year now, I am not at either of the extremes, I am actually right in the middle where I think he can start for us but he has a lot of work to put in this off season to have a chance at that. Geez, I want him to get an average around 16-22mins and see what he does with that, see if that is to many minutes or not enough.
I will say, folks want us to get another Bacot from the portal like it is in some way easy to find a Amondo Bacot all the sudden? I just find that laughable, Bacots are not easy to find! Bringing in a guy to replace Bacot and expecting him to play like Bacot played is about like trying to turn Pete Nance in to Brady Manek. Bacot has been our center piece for the last 3years, he has been our always constant, you don't just simply replace that with 1 guy from a portal.
So . . . a good fit, then. LOL
I was wondering why AK was open, but I see that Musselman is moving to USC.
He is slower than he can be BECAUSE he just got healthy and is rusty! This means he is still thinking not reacting AND he still needs to work on strength/conditioning AND he still needs to get to a trust level so he can play without worrying about each time he puts force on his leg! He needs to add strength and this will add the proper weight without compromising his natural game; he does not need to be a bruiser inside!
Watch out for Carolina and UK big Aaron Bradshaw. He just entered the portal.
If Jalen is a starter, I'm not sure he can guard 5s or 4s to be honest. The first thing he's going to have to do is foul less. He averaged 8.1 committed fouls/40 minutes in conference games. If he halves that, there's a good chance he still won't be on the floor long enough to make the impact that people who are bullish on Washington think he'll have. And in his limited minutes as a freshman, foul trouble was still an issue. I don't know whether that will be better or worse with fouls if he's defending 4s, which most 4s today aren't post-up 4s. He'll probably foul less because he'd be defending further from the basket, but I don't think he can keep up with any face up 4 that has some ball handling skill and definitely don't think he can keep up with 4s who can move like 3s.
I'm not worried about Jalen's jump shot. He'll get his shot off against 5s and 4s but he can't move well laterally. I don't think it would be ideal for him to be put in ball screens against skilled 4s where he can't be in drop coverage. He was exploited in the few minutes he played against Alabama because he has to play drop coverage. If he has to play drop coverage, he'll probably have to defend 5s.
The other thing on Jalen's jump shot (and this will be unpopular).... He likely won't have the same shooting percentage on a larger sample. He basically shot 65% on non-layups and dunks. Realistically that won't continue unless he's the best mid-range shooter in the history of basketball. So while I think he's an excellent shooter for someone his size, I don't think he's going to be shooting 67% on longer 2s and 53% from 3 over an extended sample.
And nice try on changing my Cadeau comment. On my post, my quote on Cadeau was "Assuming Cadeau isn't a gifted scorer next season, that means the 2, 3, 4/5 (depending on where Washington starts) need to be scorers." Nowhere there did I say Cadeau wouldn't improve nor would he be the same player. I'm assuming that Cadeau won't be a gifted scorer next year. Nor do I think I've ever said Washington wouldn't improve either.
Again, I wasn't comparing Deon and Jalen as players. My point was if UNC's going to be a serious Final Four contender and Jalen is a starter, he's best suited to be a 4th or 5th option like Deon Thompson was in 2009. We obviously weren't nearly as good in 2010 and IMO, that was in part due to being more dependent on Deon's production in 2010. That was my point. Never once compared the two as players.
Could Elliot Cadeau be better than Steph Curry?
Now people are going to come at me for comparing Steph Curry to Brady Manek. Let's not make Jalen Washington out to be something he's not. Manek could handle a little (right and left), he could pass a little, and he has MUCH MORE suddenness and quick twitch ability than Washington has.
Maybe Washington gets over all the health stuff and we see what he truly is capable of. But I don't think it's a matter of confidence or a mental hurdle. I don't see suddenness and quick twitch when he moves on the floor. I see some explosiveness when he elevates, but when he has 2 feet on the floor, he has a long way to go.
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Please explain to me why you don't think he has mental hurdles to conquer? I don't think it is possible to have multiple major surgeries on your lower body at his size without having mental hurdles! I had multiple (much simpler surgeries on my ankles/knees) and it took a good while before I could make a forceful cut instinctively! In addition, I haven't run into a player at any level that missed significant time without having to re-learn anticipation. It is true he might never regain elite level quickness, but peeps should expect serious improvement in this area! (all this is assuming no health setbacks, God forbid!)
I agree with not seeing some of those things on the court and I love the last sentence. He does have a long way to go, but in meaning he can do it. I believe he’s got the tools. He just needs the time and that’s what he’s got.
I think most people are at fault in comparisons because they are looking at finished products that graduate and have had plenty of court time. Manek his second year wasn’t close to his year here at UNC.
So are you going to continue to ignore the fact that due to injury, Jalen came to UNC with far less game time than the vast majority of freshmen have. IN addition, not like we changed the way we defend, our offense and defensive approaches multiple times since Jalen came to UNC. so no reason at all for a kid that is as far behind as he has been developmentally to be confused with his role?
I actually would appreciate it if you could remind me of the post where I said Jalen was going to shoot 50%+ on treys, I don't recall ever saying that or anything close to that? Of course his % will come down when his volume increases, that is a straw man argument because it argues something that was not said, at least not said by me. We were talking about him offensively but now you want to talk defensively, I don't mind at all talking that aspect, it is his weaker area. So maybe we shouldn't defend the same way we defended with Bacot in there, what say ye on us actually adjusting our defensive approach to the players we actually have? How about we don't switch Jalen out to have to guard point guards or shooting guards 35ft from the basket, how about we not do that? Excuse me, maybe my memory fails me but I don't recall guys like Meeks or Montross guarding many 2 guards 35' out yet I recall both those guys leaving UNC with some really cool rings?
Now I can accept that Jalen struggles with lateral movement, I can even accept that some of that is due to his knee issues in the past. But I see folks taking the position that he is now recovered every bit of usage of those knees, and it will NEVER get any better than it is right now. That is a fairy tale, every players comes back from major injury differently and with different time lines, I have no idea why Jalen has to be looked at in the very worst light imaginable? He needs to get stronger, he added 5lbs of muscle weight over last off season, needs at least that much again and 10lbs would be great. He came in at 230lbs this season, a big man playing at 235-245lbs is usually a weight we look for.
Jalen can not elevate off 2 feet? Geez, then who was it that multiple times got boards and caught passes that he flushed deep in the paint, with no running start like Deon needed, like Meeks needed. For someone that can't play off 2 feet funny how I saw him finish strong off 2 feet multiple times, such in fact posters here were saying they wished Bacot would do that more rather than try to finess it?
Ball screens, hey I know what, why don't we NOT switch our centers out on to point guards, how about we just not do that? How about we have Jalen with all that length spread out at the proper angle so the ball handler has to take an extra step or 2 to get around him, effectively a solid hedge, the way it was taught to UNC players for how many years again? Switch 1-3 fine, switch 4-5 fine but switching all 5 gives far to many mismatches that are not in our favor.
TP, there is no player in the history of ever that does not have real mental issues when coming back from a major injury. ANYONE that tries to tell you other wise has NEVER had a major injury! Mine was my shoulder, had it done 30yrs or so ago now and I still do not trust it 100%. The memory of what I went thru will NEVER leave me!
Ballo would definitely be the physical presence needed to guard other strong centers.
Bradshaw has a ton of upside if he can stay healthy.
Bradshaw has a ton of upside if he can stay healthy.
Dave I think he said he does jump off two feet in the paint. I don’t know how to quote or highlight but it’s a couple posts ago.
You’d think coach Rob would might let some of our staff know details about Ballo. Then again he may just choke on any info knowing our staff didn’t retain him. Who knows.
Agree with all of this, my breakdown was of the known Deon tapes and the Know J Wash tape. No comparison thus far, but if JWASH ever returned to the arc he was on before the injuries?......then his upside is significantly higher than Deons ceiling was.
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