Conference Realignment
- Thread starter keetonat
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I think it sucked when it happened years ago. But It is what it is; a big money grab for the schools. So if that's the way it has to be and we'll never have the 8 team ACC again with original members, then I guess I hope for Carolina to end up in either the SEC or the B1G where the money is good. I know that Carolina is probably the most desired school of all the schools that will eventually be moving so that gives me hope.
College athletics aren't what they used to be. I reckon I don't care all that much as it was the way I wanted it when I was in my youth and cared about sports a lot more than I do now. Sad for my kids that won't get the same experiences that I had but thems the breaks.
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College athletics aren't what they used to be. I reckon I don't care all that much as it was the way I wanted it when I was in my youth and cared about sports a lot more than I do now. Sad for my kids that won't get the same experiences that I had but thems the breaks.
You're new. Welcome.
From what I've read and listened to from people around the college football world, it seems The B1G is likely more interested in Carolina. Not that the SEC isn't interested, but we don't have the pedigree nor tv ratings for football that the SEC favors. Also, it seems like the B1G is trying to form a conglomerate of programs that are big brands that will bring in tv revenue, and are from big public research universities (another big form of revenue the B1G wants to soak up). You're right about it being a money grab, which is why I think we will eventually end up in the B1G.
Also, I was born in '01. So I don't have any memory of an 8 team ACC nor an ACC without Florida State, Miami, and Virginia Tech. That's why I imagine that I have a different perspective on this topic than a majority of Carolina fans on this platform. There's so much information around Florida State vs the ACC and the effects that it'll have on the rest of the conference, that it's hard to keep up with. I wanted to create a forum that, even if it's just me using it, serves as a place for updates, news, and opinions surrounding the future of this storied conference.
Also, I was born in '01. So I don't have any memory of an 8 team ACC nor an ACC without Florida State, Miami, and Virginia Tech. That's why I imagine that I have a different perspective on this topic than a majority of Carolina fans on this platform. There's so much information around Florida State vs the ACC and the effects that it'll have on the rest of the conference, that it's hard to keep up with. I wanted to create a forum that, even if it's just me using it, serves as a place for updates, news, and opinions surrounding the future of this storied conference.
I imagine your thread will get some traffic. I know @tarheel0910 tries to keep us updated on this stuff fairly regularly.
I hope so. But if not, it'll be a place where I can organize my thoughts and research and figure out what to make of everything that's going on with realignment and expansion.
Couple of things. Wow, to be 23 again. If you are not on premium, when @andrew jones is able to offer one of those Rivals specials, give it a shot as it's worth every penny and you'll get hooked. We've had several different threads touching on this stuff over there in both bb and fb forums. Regardless, welcome and keep posting. Interaction and the info one gains is what makes this worthwhile.
Thanks for the warm welcome! And yeah, I've only been a subscriber for a couple days and have barely scratched the surface of the content they put out on here.
@David Sisk @andrew jones Do either of you know whether or not ESPN has exercised their extension option on the ACC TV deal post 2027?
I would guess they will wait until the last minute to see how the lawsuits are going. They aren't going to want to pay the current rate for an ACC without it's top teams.
Thanks AJ. This is a rabbit hole I've crawled into. We could see massive changes to world of college sports in these next couple months.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with a supposed "competition clause" that is in the ACC/ESPN TV deal. It states that, with a minimum of 15 schools (before Stanford, Cal, and SMU are officially integrated into the ACC July 1st), the exit of 2 schools would allow ESPN to renegotiate the TV deal if they feel the value of the contract has been reduced. With that being said, quite a few dominos have to fall before what looks FSU and Clemson would find a practical way out. These hearings between FSU and the ACC could have a much bigger impact on the future of the conference than most people realize.
Everything is relative, and you probably know this, but those days were an awesome era, largely because of the round-robin. In bball you'd home & away EVERY single team. We played UVA just once this yr, some with Wake, etc.... hard to get a heated rivalry going with just a single game every yr. This yr we lost AT GT by one point late Jan. Never played them again... in the past you'd have some extra excitement when GT visited the Dean Dome for the second part of the round-robin in Feb with fans, players, everyone looking for revenge and the chance to reclaim dominance.
In fball you could play every single team in the conf too, alternating home/away every other yr.
You still have all the fun of the sport itself, and things like player development, program building, etc, but sports are different without perennial rivalries and in-season rivals.
My mother went to Carolina in the 80s. She talks about how big the Big Four Tournament used to be when she was growing up. There's still animosity between the three triangle schools but it still seems like rivalries are one aspect that isn't prevalent enough in American sports. Even when Carolina plays the other original ACC schools there isn't any spark or enthusiasm for the games. When we play Clemson, Wake, or Virginia it feels like the only thing on the line is conference standings. That's one of my biggest concerns with a move to a new conference. This will only get worse as games won't mean much to the fans aside from a win or a loss. Like who's going to give a damn about the storyline of a road game at Northwestern in mid-January
Nailed it.
It also helped that back in that era the ACC just had some great teams, players and coaches and no one-n-done yet, stars like Tim Duncan and Joe smith were playing up to 4 yrs instead of just one. The round-robin made them all even more familiar. Heels would play Bobby Sura & Sam Cassel one week, then Rodney Rodgers and Randoph Childress the next, and then the following weekend you'd be so familiar with those stellar players (especially since you saw them each twice the prior season) you might actually tune into the Wake vs FSU gm.
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As opposed to a game against BC or VT? There are big names teams in the other conferences that would be great yearly games. Michigan State, UCLA, UK, TN, etc. I get what you are saying, but I think people over value the "everyone is a conference rival" aspect. All you need is each team to have 1-2 really good rivals. UNC will have several no matter what conference they are in.
Yep. Several in conference rivals, plus dook will always be the biggest rivalry in college basketball regardless of whether or not we’re in the same conference.
Everybody wants to be rivals with UNC BB. We can take our pick
Interesting outcome. This is going to make things more difficult for the ACC if it holds. They'll have to win twice. FSU will need to win once. Of course this doesn't even include the Clemson lawsuit. That was filed in SC.
sports.yahoo.com
Florida State lawsuit vs. ACC to continue in Tallahassee
TALLAHASSEE — Near the end of arguments in Tuesday’s seven-hour legal hearing between Florida State and the ACC, a hypothetical scenario started to feel real. What if dueling lawsuits between the Seminoles and their conference keep unfolding simultaneously in Florida and North Carolina? “Then we...
sports.yahoo.com
I am pretty confident Florida State and Clemson will leave this offseason. From what I've heard being reported, the ACC has been given an ultimatum to either settle with FSU and Clemson before June 30th or both schools are gone. Also I've heard that if FSU and Clemson leave, which will trigger the composition clause, that ESPN will extinguish the current media deal before the football season starts this fall. I also believe I've heard that ESPN has stated that they already weren't planning to extend the media deal past 2027.Interesting outcome. This is going to make things more difficult for the ACC if it holds. They'll have to win twice. FSU will need to win once. Of course this doesn't even include the Clemson lawsuit. That was filed in SC.
Florida State lawsuit vs. ACC to continue in Tallahassee
TALLAHASSEE — Near the end of arguments in Tuesday’s seven-hour legal hearing between Florida State and the ACC, a hypothetical scenario started to feel real. What if dueling lawsuits between the Seminoles and their conference keep unfolding simultaneously in Florida and North Carolina? “Then we...
I cannot understand why the ACC is fighting these schools so hard. I know the losses of FSU, Clemson, and Carolina would hurt, but in my opinion, they should cut ties with whoever wants out and look to boost the schools they'll have left before there's nothing left. The ACC made their own bed when they chose to bring in Cal, Stanford, and SMU. That move pissed off not only the three schools I just mentioned, but ESPN as well.
If Clemson and Florida State leave the conference before June 30th like I think they will, I hope Carolina is right behind them. That's painful to say because Carolina and the ACC have always been together. However, the ACC looks to be a sinking ship. And if the conference goes the way of the PAC 12 and the ACC has to bring in schools like UConn and ECU to stay afloat, I hope Carolina is already long gone.
That clause won't hit because of the three additional schools. That was the main reason to bring them in. They wanted to make sure they would have enough schools. I'm not sure why ESPN wouldn't extend the contract. It's in their best interest to do so. They get everyone at a discounted rate and they don't have to worry about losing schools to Fox.
But I have no doubt that everyone involved wants to settle. I've said all along that was going to be the outcome. I seriously doubt anything is going to happen soon though. That's a big number to figure out and then the school actually has to get the money to pay it. This will drag out in court for a couple more years.
The most interesting part of that article is this
"On Tuesday, Cooney said 12 members were there. That means three of the 15 members were not. FSU wasn’t invited, according to emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times. Clemson said it never authorized the suit, so the Tigers weren’t there, either. That leaves one other, unspecified ACC school that sat out the vote."
The only logical school that would be is UNC. That means that they are leaving the door open for a lawsuit or are already getting ready for it.
"On Tuesday, Cooney said 12 members were there. That means three of the 15 members were not. FSU wasn’t invited, according to emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times. Clemson said it never authorized the suit, so the Tigers weren’t there, either. That leaves one other, unspecified ACC school that sat out the vote."
The only logical school that would be is UNC. That means that they are leaving the door open for a lawsuit or are already getting ready for it.
The reason that decision by the ACC didn't favor ESPN was because ESPN saw no value in adding those schools. In the mind of ESPN, and FOX for that matter, conference realignment isn't about getting schools at a discounted rate. It's about increasing revenue and boosting the value of their conferences to separate themselves from everybody else. Adding SMU, Cal, and Stanford did neither. And it's pretty clear that the ACC only added those schools to save their rear-ends for when FSU and Clemson find a way out. ESPN sees the difference in value between the brands of FSU, Clemson, and UNC from all the other schools in the conference. I can't imagine ESPN wants the big 3 brands trapped in the ACC while they can make more money for them in the SEC. Nor do I think ESPN wants their biggest assets in the ACC in legal disputes with the conference. ESPN ultimately has the power in this situation.
ESPN and FOX are trying to create a monopoly in college sports. They've already joined forces with Warner Bros. to create a new streaming platform to broadcast games. They've also stated that they were going to work together to modernize the governance of the new P2 conferences. ESPN sees the value of having their "Big 3" ACC brands in the SEC. I do believe however, that FOX would happily take FSU and UNC if ESPN pulls the plug on the ACC.
I had a feeling this would happen. I also think the major reason Carolina hasn't filed a lawsuit of their own is because they don't have the liberty of doing so in another state like Clemson and FSU do. Where those schools have the advantage of a non-North Carolina court handling the case, UNC would have to fight the ACC in-house. One North Carolina judge has already, in a sense, sided with the ACC in a court ruling. I don't see, nor do I believe UNC sees that changing with a different school involved.
The conference the schools are in doesn't impact the schools overall value. The school is always going to bring the same value. The reason ESPN wants them in the ACC is because they cost less. The net value is significantly higher with the schools in the ACC. If they move conferences then ESPN has to pay more. Plus, there's no guarantee they go to the SEC. There's a good chance that FSU and UNC could end up in the Big. If that happens then ESPN gets nothing. ESPN knows this. It's why they are trying to help the ACC in court.
Sorry. What I was I trying to say when I made this point was that those brands would make the network (ESPN) more money in the SEC as opposed to being in the ACC.
It's pretty clear to everyone, ESPN included, that the SEC is a more valuable conference than the ACC. The networks view the schools in their conferences as assets. The point I was trying to make was that these assets would be more profitable to ESPN in a higher value association. While ESPN does currently profit off them in the ACC, their partnership with the SEC is far more favorable for all parties involved. I see no reason why ESPN wouldn't be open to moving their assets, especially if the schools are already trying to find a way out.
It's true that the reason ESPN sided with the ACC to seal the agreement in the state of North Carolina is because they don't want FSU leaving the ACC. That to me, doesn't seem like ESPN casting a safety net to an ally. What that tells me is that ESPN knows the likelihood of losing multiple assets should FSU win these court battles and find a sensible way out.
I don't think you understand how this works from a business perspective. The SEC value goes up at the expense of the ACC value going down. ESPN isn't gaining anything by shifting the chairs because they own both, What they are gaining is expenses. They would have to pay significantly more for those schools in the SEC than they would in the ACC. Net profit is the important part. And again, why would ESPN want to roll the dice on the biggest brands going to the Big? It's illogical from a business perspective.
It's illogical only if you think these schools won't be able to leave the ACC at all. That's where all of our speculation comes into play about what will happen during these court rulings. I agree with you that ESPN is already making money off the big brands that are currently in the ACC. But if FSU and UNC can find a sensible way out then ESPN likely loses both schools to FOX and the B1G. (I didn't mention Clemson here because I doubt they'd get an invite to the B1G without FOX stepping in). What I'm trying to point out is that, by giving these schools an outlet to the SEC before they're given an alley out via a court ruling, ESPN will not only keep their assets, but they'll also appease them by being able to offer more revenue than the current ACC deal can. My point is not about ESPN saving a dollar by paying them less in the ACC. It's about ESPN being able to keep these brands in their pool before it's too late and they leave for FOX. Now I'll admit I'm basing this completely off the possibility that the GoR will be nulled for being against Florida state law. But if that becomes reality, and FSU can settle for around $150 million, they're gone, and so are Clemson and Carolina.
ESPN doesn't have the power to make them go to the SEC. That outlet would be to the highest bidder, which would most likely be Fox. ESPN would have to convince UNC that it's in their best interest to take another paycut. What are the chances of UNC doing that after having to raise hundreds of millions to get out of the ACC? And again, it's about the net, not the gross. You can't ignore the increased expenses.
I assumed they could considering the SEC wanted to add another conference game to their schedule and improve matchups during conference play. I may have been wrong there.
I don't believe convincing UNC to leave the ACC would be the hard part. I think the hard part would be convincing them to move to the SEC with limited athletic programs while FOX will be in their ear about a move to the B1G.
Let me ask you this: is there any truth behind the total number of votes currently required to disband the conference being 8? And do you think any more than 5 schools (FSU, Clemson, UNC, Miami, and possibly GT) would vote to dissolve the conference? I don't believe there are 8 schools that would be better off elsewhere than in the ACC. NC State could potentially vote with UNC, and UVA, being the flagship university of Virginia and being an AAU member, may feel like they'd receive a B1G offer. Those are the only 7 schools I feel like would make any sense to vote in favor to leave. I'm curious to know your take on that.
The law in NC requires a simple majority to dissolve a nonprofit, so before the additions eight could have been enough. The additions have increased that number and obviously the new additions would never vote for that. Realistically out of the schools you mentioned, probably FSU would have been the only one to vote for something like that, but I'm not even sure that would have happened. All these schools have to have a landing spot. UNC definitely has one. FSU, UVA and most likely Clemson have one as well. There's no guarantee for the others. Someone like state and VT could get a Big 12 invite, but they make less than the ACC. Ironically, the best thing that could happen for those other schools would be for UNC, FSU and Clemson to pay a big settlement and leave. That gives all of those schools a bigger piece of the pie and a lot of settlement money.
The preference among some of the schools would be to kick out schools like BC and WF because they take money without adding value. They'll never be able to do something like that, though. What they can do is tie money to performance and viewership. That would essentially force those schools to decide between spending more money on football by cutting other expenses (most likely by cutting sports) or leave the conference. A revenue plan that would do that, would still need to be approved by the schools and that's a hard sell.
Judge orders FSU, ACC to mediation to settle suit
A Tallahassee judge has ordered Florida State and the ACC to enter mediation in hopes of settling a high-profile lawsuit that could dramatically impact the future of the league.
Ha! Seems like FSU's lawyers really goofed their complaint. The 120 day window to begin mediation means we might be waiting 3-4 months to really get into the meat of this case.Judge orders FSU, ACC to mediation to settle suit
A Tallahassee judge has ordered Florida State and the ACC to enter mediation in hopes of settling a high-profile lawsuit that could dramatically impact the future of the league.www.espn.com
Technically not conference realignment, but could lead to big changes across the board that would include a new division being created.
Report: CFB Group of 5 Conferences Discussing Realignment, Separate Playoffs from CFP
Administrators from the Group of 5 conferences—the American Athletic Conference, Sun Belt, Mountain West, Mid-American Conference and Conference USA—have…
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