David Hale: What happened to CFB in the northeast?

[Archer2]

Everyone disparages the greed of corporations yet most seem to ignore the greed on the part of conferences and universities that is driving this expansion/realignment movement. It’s equally disgusting to me, if not more so. With universities bringing in more and more millions, has the cost of attending college decreased even a little? Hell no! It keeps rising by leaps and bounds. But this doesn’t seem to bother very many posters here or elsewhere. $33 mil per school a year isn’t enough, we need to make twice that or three times that like the SEC. And if we do, the cost of attending college will still continue to rise. Our universities are ripping people off and providing an increasingly poorer return on their money. Universities are like the government, they never have enough money to spend. They always “need” more. It’s BS! Once proud academic institutions are now no better than any other schools in their money grabbing quest.

 

[WoadBlue]

You're giving the ACC too much credit. OH fans aren't paying attention to any of those schools except for Clemson. They'll get just as much money, if not more, than the ACC. And a stable conference. There's no logical reason for Cincinnati to come to the ACC over the big 12. You can make the argument that it would help the ACC, but why should Cincinnati care about that?

Geography. Cincy in the Big 12 will be more than a couple of states away from the heart of the league. Cincy in the ACC would regain its border state rivalry with Louisville and have natural border state rivalries with Pitt and WVU.

And yes, OH CFB fans will pay attention to FSU and Miami, as well as VT and UNC, football playing Cincy if they have decent teams. OH CFB fans are not totally ignorant. They know that the BT is always overrated. But they never have had another OH school to watch play in a Major conference.

 

[WoadBlue]

Everyone disparages the greed of corporations yet most seem to ignore the greed on the part of conferences and universities that is driving this expansion/realignment movement. It’s equally disgusting to me, if not more so. With universities bringing in more and more millions, has the cost of attending college decreased even a little? Hell no! It keeps rising by leaps and bounds. But this doesn’t seem to bother very many posters here or elsewhere. $33 mil per school a year isn’t enough, we need to make twice that or three times that like the SEC. And if we do, the cost of attending college will still continue to rise. Our universities are ripping people off and providing an increasingly poorer return on their money. Universities are like the government, they never have enough money to spend. They always “need” more. It’s BS! Once proud academic institutions are now no better than any other schools in their money grabbing quest.

The problem with conferences acting to try to secure more money is that the fault is never about the less wealthy acting to try to keep up. It is about the wealthiest never being satisfied, which forces everyone else to try to keep up. Moves made by the SEC last and year and BT this year mean the ACC has no choice beyond either persuade ESPN to pay what we are worth in this market or else to suffer slow death.

 

[sammyk]

So what ACC teams are getting Das Boot. Over in the WVU board there is talk of teams exploring the old Big East

 

[tarheel0910]

Geography. Cincy in the Big 12 will be more than a couple of states away from the heart of the league. Cincy in the ACC would regain its border state rivalry with Louisville and have natural border state rivalries with Pitt and WVU.

And yes, OH CFB fans will pay attention to FSU and Miami, as well as VT and UNC, football playing Cincy if they have decent teams. OH CFB fans are not totally ignorant. They know that the BT is always overrated. But they never have had another OH school to watch play in a Major conference.

Even if that were true, that's a reason for the ACC to want them. That's not a reason for Cincinnati to leave the big 12 to go to the ACC. The money will be about the same, maybe a decent amount more now that ESPN isn't showing Big 10 games. It's more stable than the ACC right now and it doesn't come with a GofR that last more than a decade. Playing a border state school isn't worth giving up all of that.

 

[Xlance]

Even if that were true, that's a reason for the ACC to want them. That's not a reason for Cincinnati to leave the big 12 to go to the ACC. The money will be about the same, maybe a decent amount more now that ESPN isn't showing Big 10 games. It's more stable than the ACC right now and it doesn't come with a GofR that last more than a decade. Playing a border state school isn't worth giving up all of that.

How is the Big 12 more stable? Their contract expires in 2025 what they can get is only speculation. The PAC just got lowballed, who is to say the Big 12 will get offered any more than the PAC?

 

[tarheel0910]

How is the Big 12 more stable? Their contract expires in 2025 what they can get is only speculation. The PAC just got lowballed, who is to say the Big 12 will get offered any more than the PAC?

By all accounts the big 12 is considered more stable and possibly going to get some of the PAC schools to make it more solid. They aren't going to get a contract smaller than what the ACC gets. Meanwhile, the ACC is going to lose it's top teams within a decade and basically become a mid major unless there are some drastic changes. And the ACC comes with a cage because of the GofR that last over a decade. They aren't going to have that in the big 12.

 

[Xlance]

By all accounts the big 12 is considered more stable and possibly going to get some of the PAC schools to make it more solid. They aren't going to get a contract smaller than what the ACC gets. Meanwhile, the ACC is going to lose it's top teams within a decade and basically become a mid major unless there are some drastic changes. And the ACC comes with a cage because of the GofR that last over a decade. They aren't going to have that in the big 12.

By who's account?

So you believe that some schools in the ACC will pay mega dollars to buy their way out of the GOR 4 or more years early?

 

[tarheel0910]

By who's account?

So you believe that some schools in the ACC will pay mega dollars to buy their way out of the GOR 4 or more years early?

By pretty much every expert. And yes, they are going to get out of it after negotiating a buyout. Probably with the help of ESPN if they agree to go to the SEC.

 

[Xlance]

By pretty much every expert. And yes, they are going to get out of it after negotiating a buyout. Probably with the help of ESPN if they agree to go to the SEC.

Got any links?

 

[Roady]

There aren't a lot of flights into Tallahassee, which is around the size of Wilmington, NC. I have rrely had many options flying in and out of there, so I get what he's saying. Football and basketball charter flights, so it doesn't affect them.

I have not heard 16 without Notre Dame being included. If they lost two and added two, those 14 wouldn't be awful as they wait out Dame.

And the Seminole fans have been irate for years that they have Syracuse and Boston College in their division....travel issues like Notre Dame. Made no geographic nor rivalry sense. To travel from an inner tube ride from Cuba to near the Canadian border is a wide spread.

 

[Roady]

For non revenue sports, a conference that ranges from Miami and Tallahassee to Pittsburgh, Boston, and Syracuse is difficult...especially for programs on the northern and southern fringes of the conference.

Even VT and Virginia aren't that close...Charlottesville is 740 miles from Tallahassee ( Raleigh is closer to Boston) and 979 miles from Miami.

 

[tarheel0910]

For non revenue sports, a conference that ranges from Miami and Tallahassee to Pittsburgh, Boston, and Syracuse is difficult...especially for programs on the northern and southern fringes of the conference.

Even VT and Virginia aren't that close...Charlottesville is 740 miles from Tallahassee ( Raleigh is closer to Boston) and 979 miles from Miami.

Everyone talks about football driving this thing, but athletic department budgets are what really drives it. Those smaller sports bleed the budget. Football is just the way to support those other sports. A lot of people don't think about that.

 

[Roady]

But what Swarbrick is talking about is the student athlete and travel in the olympic sports.

He talks air transfers...but heck, if like FSU, his soccer, baseball, etc teams travel by bus...

And the FSU Soccer Women will travel to Boston, Charlottesville, South Bend...and finally Cary, NC....by bus.

 

[tarheel0910]

Uneven revenue split and mandate minimum spending on football could force a couple of schools to consider leaving - without penalty - and then adding WVU and UCF would help a lot. Then, there wouldn't be as much a need for uneven revenue.

There is a path to where the ACC can get to enough per-team revenue that it remains solvent, but it's a tricky path. Perhaps now that ESPN isn't going to have the Big Ten means the ACC and SEC have a hoops challenge, but also maybe do something in football, too. And if the ACC can renegotiate the ESPN deal, it will include streaming, which will raise the payout as well.

If teams were going to jump they would have over the last month, as the schools that might have an inclination to go to another conference have done dur diligence looking for a loophole, but that doesn't really exist unless there is a mass exodus, and nobody sees that happening as of now.

I read that the uneven revenue split has started to gain a little momentum. What exactly would have to happen for that to become a reality? Would it have to be a unanimous vote or something less?

 

[WoadBlue]

And the Seminole fans have been irate for years that they have Syracuse and Boston College in their division....travel issues like Notre Dame. Made no geographic nor rivalry sense. To travel from an inner tube ride from Cuba to near the Canadian border is a wide spread.

And yet FSU wanted to play Syracuse annually as part of a plan to try to become a bigger draw in the northeast.

If I were ACC commissioner and had the power, I would have ordered FSU to play Miami, Clemson, and GT annually. That would be best for ACC TV drawing power and for FSU recruiting.

 

[WoadBlue]

I read that the uneven revenue split has started to gain a little momentum. What exactly would have to happen for that to become a reality? Would it have to be a unanimous vote or something less?

Even if Wake and BC were to agree to take a big cut, that would not help much long term. The odds are 0 that tiny Wake as a 4th NC school in the ACC can ever draw enough new fans (meaning, they are not already UNC or NCSU or Clemson or VT fans who now watch all Wake games too) to help the ACC grow its fan base. And the odds are nearly as high against New England and Boston ever caring enough about major college sports to have BC be valuable.

Clean cuts are preferable.

 

[tarheel0910]

Even if Wake and BC were to agree to take a big cut, that would not help much long term. The odds are 0 that tiny Wake as a 4th NC school in the ACC can ever draw enough new fans (meaning, they are not already UNC or NCSU or Clemson or VT fans who now watch all Wake games too) to help the ACC grow its fan base. And the odds are nearly as high against New England and Boston ever caring enough about major college sports to have BC be valuable.

Clean cuts are preferable.

The uneven revenue split isn't about helping out WF. It's about getting the top schools more money so they don't leave. It would never get us to the type of money the Big or SEC will make, but it narrows the gap until we leave. It's basically what the big 12 did with Texas.

 

[WoadBlue]

The uneven revenue split isn't about helping out WF. It's about getting the top schools more money so they don't leave. It would never get us to the type of money the Big or SEC will make, but it narrows the gap until we leave. It's basically what the big 12 did with Texas.

But it would be done at expense of Wake and BC while keeping Wake and BC in ACC.

Clean cut is far better.

 

[tarheel0910]

But it would be done at expense of Wake and BC while keeping Wake and BC in ACC.

Clean cut is far better.

You can't just clean cut them. That would never happen. You can essentially force them out through revenue splits, though.

 

[andrew jones]

I read that the uneven revenue split has started to gain a little momentum. What exactly would have to happen for that to become a reality? Would it have to be a unanimous vote or something less?

A vote, but I am thinking the mandated spending minimum might be easier to make a reality because it speaks to commitment. "To be an ACC football program you much show this level of commitment..." That will put pressure on certain schools. Then, once that is established, you dangle the unequal revenue as the next thing to pass, and it will put a few schools in position of considering drastic moves.

 

[andrew jones]

Even if Wake and BC were to agree to take a big cut, that would not help much long term. The odds are 0 that tiny Wake as a 4th NC school in the ACC can ever draw enough new fans (meaning, they are not already UNC or NCSU or Clemson or VT fans who now watch all Wake games too) to help the ACC grow its fan base. And the odds are nearly as high against New England and Boston ever caring enough about major college sports to have BC be valuable.

Clean cuts are preferable.

Wake's and BC's longterm vialbility isn't a concern to most of the conference. Literal contraction cannot happen, they aren't getting fired, but there are ways to force changes. Uneven revenue sharing is one of those ways.

 

[Archer2]

College sports, especially college football, has become a nasty business. I can’t believe so many fans don’t seem to care. Anything goes in pursuit of that almighty dollar.

 

[tarheel0910]

College sports, especially college football, has become a nasty business. I can’t believe so many fans don’t seem to care. Anything goes in pursuit of that almighty dollar.

It's been a business since they first handed out scholarships. It's always been about money for the schools. They haven't been doing this for altruistic reasons.

 

[Archer2]

It's been a business since they first handed out scholarships. It's always been about money for the schools. They haven't been doing this for altruistic reasons.

Agreed, but it’s been ramped up exponentially. Colleges are bringing in funny money and yet the cost of attendance is ever increasing. Pure greed on their part.

 

[WoadBlue]

College sports, especially college football, has become a nasty business. I can’t believe so many fans don’t seem to care. Anything goes in pursuit of that almighty dollar.

I do care, but I also know that either the ACC makes some kind of drastic moves or those larger business changes will kill the ACC. Wake and BC liabilities in this sport business world. The only reason that Syracuse is not a total liability as well is that Cuse has easily largest basketball fan base and TV power in the northeast.

 

[WoadBlue]

Wake's and BC's longterm vialbility isn't a concern to most of the conference. Literal contraction cannot happen, they aren't getting fired, but there are ways to force changes. Uneven revenue sharing is one of those ways.

Changes that do not force them out are akin to using a band aid to try to close a wound that requires 30 stitches. The band aid is a waste of time because it simply cannot solve the problem.

 

[WoadBlue]

A vote, but I am thinking the mandated spending minimum might be easier to make a reality because it speaks to commitment. "To be an ACC football program you much show this level of commitment..." That will put pressure on certain schools. Then, once that is established, you dangle the unequal revenue as the next thing to pass, and it will put a few schools in position of considering drastic moves.

Both Wake and BC can rise money to build this or that, to endowment a football coach or two. None of that even with 10 win seasons means that can add a single fan to watch ACC football. And it is only those fans watching that TV pays for.

 

[sammyk]

The Issue with a lot of the Northeast is this, that is Pro sports territory. Philly is a great sports town but Temple gets zero love. NYC is a great sports town and Rutgers gets zero love same with Boston and BC and Pittsburgh and Pitt. The area in and around Philly has some of the best HS football players in the US but very few stay to go to Rutgers or Temple they leave for Penn St, Alabama , Ohio St ect because of the pro sports mentality. I dont know how you fix it. When I was a kid fall meant Pittsburgh Steelers. If Pitt had a good year that was nice but noone was going down to Three Rivers stadium twice in one weekend it was all about the Steelers. Many people in the NE are not going to spend their money on two football games in a weekend. Bostonians are going to the Pats game and that's it that Not BC. Now Wake Forest might be North Carolina's 5th or 6th favorite college football team in NC behind APP St, UNC, NC St, ECU, NC A&T so that's WF issue. The reason why the SEC has so much passion is what the hell else are you going to do in say Alabama or Mississippi but go to a football game. The schools in the North that draw well are most of the times away from the big cities(Penn St, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Notre Dame ect)

 

[andrew jones]

Changes that do not force them out are akin to using a band aid to try to close a wound that requires 30 stitches. The band aid is a waste of time because it simply cannot solve the problem.

If a minimum spanding mandate combined with uneven revenue distribution makes it way too expensive to continue operating, their hands will be forced. That is the thinking by some. They can't simp'y "fire" them. Not gonna happen. That is why some of these other things have been discussed.

 

[Xlance]

If a minimum spanding mandate combined with uneven revenue distribution makes it way too expensive to continue operating, their hands will be forced. That is the thinking by some. They can't simp'y "fire" them. Not gonna happen. That is why some of these other things have been discussed.

Forcing a school's hand to get them to leave is not very dignified. It may make things look better to those out of the area but it's a really crappy way to get rid of someone.
The best situation would be to help them find or found a league that would suit them.
Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Army, Navy, Tulsa, SMU are just a few names that might help fill out a conference for that pair
If you are going to split with a school, at least do it with some class.

 

[andrew jones]

Forcing a school's hand to get them to leave is not very dignified. It may make things look better to those out of the area but it's a really crappy way to get rid of someone.
The best situation would be to help them find or found a league that would suit them.
Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Army, Navy, Tulsa, SMU are just a few names that might help fill out a conference for that pair
If you are going to split with a school, at least do it with some class.

Well, if the ACC falls apart, those schools become second-tier programs anyway. So the thinking by some is the super conference era isn't going to include all current P5s, certainly not some of the schools in the ACC, Pac-12 & Big 12. Gotta survive.

 

[sammyk]

When Penn State joined the BIG. Is when college football in the NE went down

 

[Xlance]

Well, if the ACC falls apart, those schools become second-tier programs anyway. So the thinking by some is the super conference era isn't going to include all current P5s, certainly not some of the schools in the ACC, Pac-12 & Big 12. Gotta survive.

If that is the case Andrew, then the ACC should

Well, if the ACC falls apart, those schools become second-tier programs anyway. So the thinking by some is the super conference era isn't going to include all current P5s, certainly not some of the schools in the ACC, Pac-12 & Big 12. Gotta survive.

Andrew if that is the case then the ACC should look at shedding not only Wake Forest and Boston College, but Duke and Syracuse too! That is of course, that football is still driving the bus well into the future.

Again put those 4 into a secondary league with Army, Navy, Rice, Tulane, SMU, Tulsa, Temple and UConn and let them establish themselves as a conference, then bring in West Virginia and UCF to get the ACC back to 12 football schools.