Demise of our program

[NorCalTarheel]

***Edited from "Death" because Demise is so much more accurate a descriptor! (Thanks dtodd)***

Seems harsh or premature? I don't think so.

In the last few years we, as a fan base have been continually lowering our expectations to the point I don't recognize this program as the one I have rooted for over the past 45 years.

As positive as you would like to be, there is no escaping the fact that we are not in the upper echelon of college basketball programs. That honor belongs to Duke, UConn and a host of SEC schools. Kansas, Baylor, Gonzaga and Michigan State are in a tier slightly below that and I would argue that we're not even in that tier any longer.

We hired a coach with ZERO coaching experience because he was connected to the program. Not only has he not maintained the winning ways we have all enjoyed, he has abandoned most of what made our program great to begin with. We don't crush people on the boards any longer. We don't have a stable of big's to trigger our fast break. We don't run our fast break, nor our secondary break, which was a staple of Carolina basketball. We don't show teams multiple defenses to throw our opponents off balance. We are not Carolina basketball any longer.

Many fall back on the excuse of NIL. There are over 300 teams in division 1 basketball and we have more nil money than 98% of them. Are there always going to be those who cheat and scam the system, yes. Not every sweet 16 team, (what should be a minimum standard for UNC basketball) are cheaters. We have gotten too big for our britches, believing that our name and tradition alone would be enough to draw sufficient talent. The times have changed and money is the main driver for players today. We have not changed with the times. How are we the only program that didn't get that memo?

Whether or not we get the big from Arizona or whatever we are down to to replace our point guard, I don't think you can realistically have a positive outlook on next season. We have exactly one starter returning from a team that was a controversy away from not making the NCAA tournament (again). That player started at our biggest position of need to replace him. Folks, we don't need a center, a point guard, or a shooter. We need multiple players at each of those positions. We need those multiple players to be upper echelon players, not mid-major guys trying to improve their lot in life.

I know there will be many who disagree and, honestly I'm glad there are. As the mountain appears larger and larger in the cockpit windshield, we each have our own time frame to realize drastic action needs to be taken. It was taken on the football side and it needs to be taken on the basketball end as well.

I've rambled more than I meant to. Let the evisceration of my opinion begin!

 

[KinstonNC]

Seems harsh or premature? I don't think so.

In the last few years we, as a fan base have been continually lowering our expectations to the point I don't recognize this program as the one I have rooted for over the past 45 years.

As positive as you would like to be, there is no escaping the fact that we are not in the upper echelon of college basketball programs. That honor belongs to Duke, UConn and a host of SEC schools. Kansas, Baylor, Gonzaga and Michigan State are in a tier slightly below that and I would argue that we're not even in that tier any longer.

We hired a coach with ZERO coaching experience because he was connected to the program. Not only has he not maintained the winning ways we have all enjoyed, he has abandoned most of what made our program great to begin with. We don't crush people on the boards any longer. We don't have a stable of big's to trigger our fast break. We don't run our fast break, nor our secondary break, which was a staple of Carolina basketball. We don't show teams multiple defenses to throw our opponents off balance. We are not Carolina basketball any longer.

Many fall back on the excuse of NIL. There are over 300 teams in division 1 basketball and we have more nil money than 98% of them. Are there always going to be those who cheat and scam the system, yes. Not every sweet 16 team, (what should be a minimum standard for UNC basketball) are cheaters. We have gotten too big for our britches, believing that our name and tradition alone would be enough to draw sufficient talent. The times have changed and money is the main driver for players today. We have not changed with the times. How are we the only program that didn't get that memo?

Whether or not we get the big from Arizona or whatever we are down to to replace our point guard, I don't think you can realistically have a positive outlook on next season. We have exactly one starter returning from a team that was a controversy away from not making the NCAA tournament (again). That player started at our biggest position of need to replace him. Folks, we don't need a center, a point guard, or a shooter. We need multiple players at each of those positions. We need those multiple players to be upper echelon players, not mid-major guys trying to improve their lot in life.

I know there will be many who disagree and, honestly I'm glad there are. As the mountain appears larger and larger in the cockpit windshield, we each have our own frame to realize drastic action needs to be taken. It was taken on the football side and it needs to be taken on the basketball end as well.

I've rambled more than I meant to. Let the evisceration of my opinion begin!

Wtf! Mann stop all that damn whining! You act like the season starts tomorrow geez!!
I kindly suggest you go find yourself a hobby or something cause cbb has passed you by frfr.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Wtf! Mann stop all that damn whining! You act like the season starts tomorrow geez!!
I kindly suggest you go find yourself a hobby or something cause cbb has passed you by frfr.

Please tell me which part you disagree with. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the flight.

 

[KinstonNC]

Please tell me which part you disagree with. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the flight.

Please tell me which part you disagree with. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the flight.

I would if I could bro, but your post is filled with so much whining that it instantly exhausts me.

Yes I’ll not only sit back, but I’ll also take a nap on this one 😴

 

[NorCalTarheel]

If fact= "whining " to you, then we agree.

Not sure what you could argue with items I listed (apparently neither are you), and if that's the case, how you for see us returning to the standard many of us grew accustomed to.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

We’re a better team now than last year with 6/7 empty spots you can fill with measurable players

Like a 6’6 guard

That roster was incredibly flawed hell just get taller potential and you can beat that

 

[NathanFielder]

If Hubert isn't the right person for the job and is here for the long term, then yes, it is the death of the program. Maybe not the "death" of the program but more like UCLA. UCLA is there and occasionally they're a factor in March. But they certainly aren't one of the first 5 programs you think of when the brackets come around. Since 1994-95, when UCLA last won a National Championship, they've been a #1 seed twice.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

If Hubert isn't the right person for the job and is here for the long term, then yes, it is the death of the program. Maybe not the "death" of the program but more like UCLA. UCLA is there and occasionally they're a factor in March. But they certainly aren't one of the first 5 programs you think of when the brackets come around. Since 1994-95, when UCLA last won a National Championship, they've been a #1 seed twice.

Agreed. The "death" part more accurately should have been assigned to the elite level of play, results, stature...etc.

The program will be there, it just won't be recognizable to us old farts!

 

[dtodd4475]

Most teams reload year to year nowadays, huge roster overhauls. Seems like you would be singing the same tune with 95% of the teams including most of the Final 4 teams over that past 2 years.

Literally a 1 seed last year, and played for the Natty 2 years before that. The death of a program?

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

We were a 1-seed last year.
We played in the National Championship game three years ago.

We'd all like to see more consistent excellence but "death of our program" is a little premature.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Most teams reload year to year nowadays, huge roster overhauls. Seems like you would be singing the same tune with 95% of the teams including most of the Final 4 teams over that past 2 years.

Literally a 1 seed last year, and played for the Natty 2 years before that. The death of a program?

Again, agreed. The "death" part more accurately should have been assigned to the elite level of play, results, stature...etc.

We were an 8-seed in 21-22, a fact erased by a crazy-awesome run through the NCAA tournament with Roy's boys.

We missed the tournament and turned down the NIT in 22-23 and was a controversial last-team in this year (bounced 1st round).

23-24 was a great year. We were the fourth #1 seed and lost in the Sweet 16.

@dtodd, I know you know all of that but I list it to illustrate this question...

Is 50% a passing, acceptable grade for this program? It doesn't feel like it to me.

Dramatics of my verbiage aside, feels like a downward spiral and next season CURRENTLY doesn't seem poised to change that trajectory.

 

[Bubspub88]

Maybe not dead but sure looks to be on life support.

 

[Geth]

Ahh- the post that basically dare others to to disagree- I mean, high opinion of oneself or what? I mean- I can argue for a topic I disagree with if the other premise is inherently flawed because it annoys me (the temerity! 🤨 ) This is a categorical waste of everyone's time (no one really wants to spend time hearing any opinion but their own) but it's Friday, late in a work day with nothing to do until 3PM when I'm off so what the F.

Bottom line and it's not really that big of a curb to step up to:

Times change- the game is a SHELL of even some of the more mediocre parts of what it was. A wise person finds some contentment in what was achieved and doesn't whine (this word has been use a few times and it fits) about having to lower expectations- ADJUST THEM. If a return is expected to the 1980s and early 90s in how our teams played and gutted out wins- came back, stood tall, fought hard, were on the top of the list of every top recruit - a reality check is needed because it's not happening. It's not programmatic- it's how things are now.

We all sit around with blue tinted specs bemoaning the loss of this or that recruit or kid in the portal who chooses elsewhere because we all believe on some level that UNC should be as special and hallowed to them as it is to us- IT ISN'T.

Every school is going to ebb and flow in this new Thunder Dome of college athletics, NIL and the ridiculous unlimited free trips to whatever school will have you when you get your feelings hurt portal circus. The programs with the more in touch coaching staffs that have been tailor built for this world are hitting the ground running but unless it changes (as it always does) this is the new normal not some call to arms bemoaning the death of our program.

I do not think Hubert was the choice we should have made but I'm also not chucking him squarely under the convoy of Smith Center shuttle buses as the be all end all pivot point as to the problems in our program. I think the COVID period created a perfect storm for the last 2-3 seasons and players who had no business going pro stayed longer and created a ton of roster, recruiting, portal issues.

I feel if we aptly fill holes, adjust our approach, get with the new way of doing things- we will be more competitive than we were this last season and more successful in the seasons to come. Problems don't suddenly get fixed over night but if we don't go the elite 8 next year or win a title in the next 10 I'm still not getting my Carolina blue funeral suit dry cleaned.

 

[gary-7]

Seems harsh or premature? I don't think so.

In the last few years we, as a fan base have been continually lowering our expectations to the point I don't recognize this program as the one I have rooted for over the past 45 years.

As positive as you would like to be, there is no escaping the fact that we are not in the upper echelon of college basketball programs. That honor belongs to Duke, UConn and a host of SEC schools. Kansas, Baylor, Gonzaga and Michigan State are in a tier slightly below that and I would argue that we're not even in that tier any longer.

We hired a coach with ZERO coaching experience because he was connected to the program. Not only has he not maintained the winning ways we have all enjoyed, he has abandoned most of what made our program great to begin with. We don't crush people on the boards any longer. We don't have a stable of big's to trigger our fast break. We don't run our fast break, nor our secondary break, which was a staple of Carolina basketball. We don't show teams multiple defenses to throw our opponents off balance. We are not Carolina basketball any longer.

Many fall back on the excuse of NIL. There are over 300 teams in division 1 basketball and we have more nil money than 98% of them. Are there always going to be those who cheat and scam the system, yes. Not every sweet 16 team, (what should be a minimum standard for UNC basketball) are cheaters. We have gotten too big for our britches, believing that our name and tradition alone would be enough to draw sufficient talent. The times have changed and money is the main driver for players today. We have not changed with the times. How are we the only program that didn't get that memo?

Whether or not we get the big from Arizona or whatever we are down to to replace our point guard, I don't think you can realistically have a positive outlook on next season. We have exactly one starter returning from a team that was a controversy away from not making the NCAA tournament (again). That player started at our biggest position of need to replace him. Folks, we don't need a center, a point guard, or a shooter. We need multiple players at each of those positions. We need those multiple players to be upper echelon players, not mid-major guys trying to improve their lot in life.

I know there will be many who disagree and, honestly I'm glad there are. As the mountain appears larger and larger in the cockpit windshield, we each have our own frame to realize drastic action needs to be taken. It was taken on the football side and it needs to be taken on the basketball end as well.

I've rambled more than I meant to. Let the evisceration of my opinion begin!

UNC will doubtless put together a roster for the coming season. It will be a talented roster, but not more so than this season's. Y'see, talent wasn't the problem, and though the distribution of physical traits wasn't ideal, the roster itself is not what kept us from winning more games ---- it was how it was used.

Think back to all the games that went down to the wire and/or in which we had to mount epic comebacks, only to fall short. So, just imagine "what if?"..., like if we had used more scramble defense to take advantage of our quickness and mitigate RJ having to man-up on bigger 2s?... or had we not constantly cut short the Secondary to bog down into ball-screen hell?... or not put mind-numbing restrictions on our creating-savant PG?... or didn't wait til March to actually get the ball into the post occasionally?.. etc, etc etc etc.

Yep... just a few better possessions, a few extra points, a few extra stops --- the stuff that the above "what ifs?" would have easily afforded us, and we're talking about a 5-7 loss team, as opposed to double-digits.

With that said, was this a roster complete enough for a Natty?
No, barring an improbable run.

But, was it a roster capable of beating anyone they played?
Yes, particularly if we don't spot 'em a bunch o' points. By all rights, this team should have finished in the Top-15 with no worse than a 4-seed, and quite possibly better.

Bottom line is this team devolved to the "bubble" because he had NO IDENTITY. It was clear there was lack of buy-in as to what exactly we were trying to establish, i.e., a system. This staff was handed a system, and decided they needed to reinvent the wheel --- and welp, the lugnuts fell off.

Finally, that has nothing to do with "experience" --- Roy Wiliams walked into Kansas as a rookie and ran his Carolina-based system like it was a damn clinic --- it's about outthinking oneself and then being too stubborn to see what the actual problem was.

Blaming "size" and what-not? Sorry. But sure, go get ya some, but they're gonna need a clue as to what they're trying to accomplish on the court.

So yeah, Hubert and company will doubtless put together a roster that will be quite competitive. Question is, will they take a hard look in the mirror and do better by them?

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Ahh- the post that basically dare others to to disagree- I mean, high opinion of oneself or what? I mean- I can argue for a topic I disagree with if the other premise is inherently flawed because it annoys me (the temerity! 🤨 ) This is a categorical waste of everyone's time (no one really wants to spend time hearing any opinion but their own) but it's Friday, late in a work day with nothing to do until 3PM when I'm off so what the F.

I enjoyed most of your post and viewpoint but uncertain why the preface? Isn't the purpose of these message boards to share OPINIONS? Does having an opinion of my own "dare you to disagree" or display a "high opinion" of myself? There is no audacity or "temerity" (good word) in having a differing opinion.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that times are changing and maybe my disappointment is that other programs are or having changing with them and we don't appear to be.

Without getting caught up in the specifics of elite eights or national championships within 10 years, if the inconsistencies and the floor of our performance stays as it is, I'd say the death of the level of our program becomes factual.

 

[Kool1234567]

Not ready yet to say the program is dead but it’s not Healthy….I have said this before Year 5 is the make or break year for Hubert Davis…With RJ leaving it ended the Roy Williams era of players….Its all his guys this coming year….

No excuses….

 

[dtodd4475]

Again, agreed. The "death" part more accurately should have been assigned to the elite level of play, results, stature...etc.

We were an 8-seed in 21-22, a fact erased by a crazy-awesome run through the NCAA tournament with Roy's boys.

We missed the tournament and turned down the NIT in 22-23 and was a controversial last-team in this year (bounced 1st round).

23-24 was a great year. We were the fourth #1 seed and lost in the Sweet 16.

@dtodd, I know you know all of that but I list it to illustrate this question...

Is 50% a passing, acceptable grade for this program? It doesn't feel like it to me.

Dramatics of my verbiage aside, feels like a downward spiral and next season CURRENTLY doesn't seem poised to change that trajectory.

I do not have the same worries for the demise of the program. A four year run with a one seed 1 possession sweet 16 loss, and a National runner-up does not do that for me.

I also think the NIL will be more competitive , and our team will be solid next year. The year to year volatility is a part of the game nowadays with rosters, but UNC will be in the mix with the "elites".

 

[DSouthr]

Seems harsh or premature? I don't think so.

In the last few years we, as a fan base have been continually lowering our expectations to the point I don't recognize this program as the one I have rooted for over the past 45 years.

As positive as you would like to be, there is no escaping the fact that we are not in the upper echelon of college basketball programs. That honor belongs to Duke, UConn and a host of SEC schools. Kansas, Baylor, Gonzaga and Michigan State are in a tier slightly below that and I would argue that we're not even in that tier any longer.

We hired a coach with ZERO coaching experience because he was connected to the program. Not only has he not maintained the winning ways we have all enjoyed, he has abandoned most of what made our program great to begin with. We don't crush people on the boards any longer. We don't have a stable of big's to trigger our fast break. We don't run our fast break, nor our secondary break, which was a staple of Carolina basketball. We don't show teams multiple defenses to throw our opponents off balance. We are not Carolina basketball any longer.

Many fall back on the excuse of NIL. There are over 300 teams in division 1 basketball and we have more nil money than 98% of them. Are there always going to be those who cheat and scam the system, yes. Not every sweet 16 team, (what should be a minimum standard for UNC basketball) are cheaters. We have gotten too big for our britches, believing that our name and tradition alone would be enough to draw sufficient talent. The times have changed and money is the main driver for players today. We have not changed with the times. How are we the only program that didn't get that memo?

Whether or not we get the big from Arizona or whatever we are down to to replace our point guard, I don't think you can realistically have a positive outlook on next season. We have exactly one starter returning from a team that was a controversy away from not making the NCAA tournament (again). That player started at our biggest position of need to replace him. Folks, we don't need a center, a point guard, or a shooter. We need multiple players at each of those positions. We need those multiple players to be upper echelon players, not mid-major guys trying to improve their lot in life.

I know there will be many who disagree and, honestly I'm glad there are. As the mountain appears larger and larger in the cockpit windshield, we each have our own time frame to realize drastic action needs to be taken. It was taken on the football side and it needs to be taken on the basketball end as well.

I've rambled more than I meant to. Let the evisceration of my opinion begin!

LOL, I could take around 90% of this post and add: That it is crystal clear that Roy's former assistant simply was not ready for this job as UNC head coach. So many changes that the program is not recognizable, parents of players are screaming, key players are transferring, we have become a laughing stock, UNC fans are jumping off like the ship is sinking fast. There simply is no way we can recover from all this, we are no longer elite.

But our former head coach, Dean Smith made a phone call, Roy did not say no this time, and here we are 3 more national championships later. No, the program did not die, it went thru some hard times but it was built on strong foundations, the storm passes, it will pass now as well because those foundations are still strong as ever. Things will change, things always change, that is the one constant in life, change will happen and you may not always like it but if change is not already at your door steps it is in the way, accept it, learn and grow from it, in time you may love the out come.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

I do not have the same worries for the demise of the program. A four year run with a one seed 1 possession sweet 16 loss, and a National runner-up does not do that for me.

I also think the NIL will be more competitive , and our team will be solid next year. The year to year volatility is a part of the game nowadays with rosters, but UNC will be in the mix with the "elites".

DEMISE is so much better a descriptor than "death". - Thank you!

I hope you right on the rest of it.

 

[Geth]

A)

Does having an opinion of my own "dare you to disagree" or display a "high opinion" of myself?

B)

Let the evisceration of my opinion begin!

The way you worded it obviously "dares you to disagree".

Also- you literally asked for it. Don't ask to be cut apart then have an issue with the sharpness of the tool used to do it.

No hard feelings- it's been a long week.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

The way you worded it obviously "dares you to disagree".

Also- you literally asked for it. Don't ask to be cut apart then have an issue with the sharpness of the tool used to do it.

No hard feelings- it's been a long week.

If so, unintentionally.

I asked for my opinions be attacked. Different than personally.

None at all. We all have 'em. Have a great weekend!

 

[NathanFielder]

But our former head coach, Dean Smith made a phone call, Roy did not say no this time, and here we are 3 more national championships later. No, the program did not die, it went thru some hard times but it was built on strong foundations, the storm passes, it will pass now as well because those foundations are still strong as ever. Things will change, things always change, that is the one constant in life, change will happen and you may not always like it but if change is not already at your door steps it is in the way, accept it, learn and grow from it, in time you may love the out come.

I don't see the comporables to today. I don't really think the foundation is as strong as ever, mainly because there isn't a Roy out there for UNC if Hubert doesn't work. UNC would enter into completely unknown territory.

For me, a giant part of the UNC foundation was its head coach was secure. That isn't the case right now. You cannot have a stable program if you have instability at the HC spot. Hubert can prove to be the right guy but until he does, the foundation is not as secure as strong as it's ever been.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

We’re a better team now than last year with 6/7 empty spots you can fill with measurable players

Like a 6’6 guard

That roster was incredibly flawed hell just get taller potential and you can beat that

So now the 7 footer from AZ is an empty spot and the 6’6 guard

So now imagine just grabbing 5 more

 

[DSouthr]

I don't see the comporables to today. I don't really think the foundation is as strong as ever, mainly because there isn't a Roy out there for UNC if Hubert doesn't work. UNC would enter into completely unknown territory.

For me, a giant part of the UNC foundation was its head coach was secure. That isn't the case right now. You cannot have a stable program if you have instability at the HC spot. Hubert can prove to be the right guy but until he does, the foundation is not as secure as strong as it's ever been.

I went thru it, did you? I talked to players, I talked to recruits, did you? I can speak to what I went thru, you speak on what you read, I speak the some of the same emotions then because I felt them live time, I have been around to see those foundations tested, I didn't read about it.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I have no doubt we’ll right the ship. But in the end, the product won’t be something I really want to root for. So “death” of the program is accurate for me. Maybe even more descriptive is “death” of the sport I once enjoyed.

 

[NathanFielder]

I went thru it, did you? I talked to players, I talked to recruits, did you? I can speak to what I went thru, you speak on what you read, I speak the some of the same emotions then because I felt them live time, I have been around to see those foundations tested, I didn't read about it.

I hope you're right. I don't think what you're saying is predictive of the future, though. But I hope you're on the right end in the end.

 

[dtodd4475]

I have no doubt we’ll right the ship. But in the end, the product won’t be something I really want to root for. So “death” of the program is accurate for me. Maybe even more descriptive is “death” of the sport I once enjoyed.

Sounds like it may be "dead" to you regardless, the changes being a bridge too far. The game will move on, I enjoy it, and look forward to following it as passionately. Certainly in the midst of another big change for sure, seen a few. Still all in for me.

 

[dtodd4475]

I appreciate the variety of opinions. Hope I did not come of as attacking, was not my intent, but sometimes text responses can lack tone, just sharing my take. Appreciate yours.

 

[dtodd4475]

Just another example of a "blueblood" in total reset. Kansas now has every single player from their roster last year that did not graduate in the portal. Total reset, I think the Jayhawks will be fine as well. Self and their collective is adjusting to the new dynamic just like everyone else.

 

[DrJaaay]

If the players are gonna get paid, and players are going to change teams every year, then set up a system like the EPL. Establish divisions based on previous years results and do a draft. Then go to the next division and continue the draft, etc. Pay amount is already established and based on draft position. Not realistic but maybe it would be more interesting than what is happening now. I'm not a fan of the NIL era. I don't even know the players on anyone's team anymore. Back in the old days I knew the starters for each conference team. Granted there were fewer teams. Old man rant over. Go Heels!!!