No I was just speaking about if we continue to lose 6 or 7 players yearly what would it do to our program, I know we are not like those programs.
Dunn to transfer
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You're basically agreeing with me that we would've been fake good last year if things went the way you think they should've gone. A round of 32 team with a second weekend ceiling. So essentially a fringe top 25 team. I saw a different team than you last year. Our most gifted player was brutally inefficient and the solution to it was to play who more? Dunn? Would Puff have been more healthy if he had gotten more playing time? Apart from Caleb, I didn't see a whole lot of gifted athletes. I didn't see any gifted shooters. I didn't see any gifted ballhandlers. I didn't see any gifted passers.
I'll ask you. What should the rotations have been? What should the offensive setup have been?
I'm truly interested in what the solutions should've been. There were people here who legitimately thought we could become the best team in the country after we beat Louisville. How was that going to happen? I'm genuinely interested. If we started Tyler Nickel, would we have been a Final Four team? If we played Dunn more minutes and reduced Love's PT, would we have been a Final Four team?
Udeh seems like a good fit, if he's willing to play behind Armando for his first year here. It's not clear that Udeh is ready to start, so getting 15 mpg his first year here might be an option he'd consider. But he probably thinks he should start, so that may not be attractive.
Plus, does Udeh fit Hubert's system? Who knows? Does Hubert want another dominant rim protector and dunker, or is he looking for more mobility and range in the post?
At the end of the day, I'm not too worried about adding a center. But, as you say, we have unanswered questions about Washington (and High). And what if we have injury problems?
I don't want to speak for Oz, he can speak for himself and do so well, I will give you my reply as my own opinion.
First off, what in the world does fake good mean, never heard such a term, strikes me a bit like saying "HOT ICE CREAM", just a term that makes no sense to me? A team is as good as it's results, no more and no less, we were as good as we finished last season, maybe we should have been better, I for sure think we should have been better, we had in my opinion really bad coaching decisions that placed the talent we had in bad positions to succeed.
What should we have done you ask, easy, the exact opposite of what we actually did do. Rather than be a half court team we should have run the the Carolina breaks, rather than play 2 centers and have 1 posted outside of the 3pt arch we should have used more of the twin tower look ala Henson and Zeller for example. Rather than yet again limit the bench we should have gone to it early season and on because those fellas on your bench need PT to improve. Maybe when guys were taking big volume shots you stop him from doing so and bench him if he does it again. Maybe you really realize the tenor of the game at the tip and not just realize the other team was more ready to play than your players were but you actually do something about that, like use your bench to send that message. How about simply not having your weakest jump shooter stand outside the 3pt arch in the deep corner and continue to let him take shots the defense wants him to take? How about in your post game PC you don't praise players as playing great when the game we just watched they clearly were not? How about not running a spread offense that requires great out side shooting while having one of the worst shooting teams in the country, how about actually spreading out the defense, at very least force them to move out of their natural positions rather than just spread your offense and allow the defense to multi battle Bacot by himself? How about actually having a PG on the floor, that would have been nice.
You ask what our rotations would look like, mine may not have been as popular but I would have first had the closest thing I had to a PG not just on the floor a lot more but I would have started him, I would have started Trimble at the point right after that awful Portland road trip, would have sat RJ and had him back up both the point and the 2, because we would be running much more, there would be no 35+ minute guys. Nance would come off the bench to back up Bacot, would have moved Leaky down to the 4 and started Nickel at the 3, Leaky would NOT, repeat NOT be a stretchy 4. Styles and McKoy would have both played much more minutes, keep in mind again that we would be more of the Roy running high pace team than the half court team we have been the last 2 seasons so you have to keep fresh legs out there, even Shaver would have got a few minutes each game.
Maybe but that would honestly be a very hard sell to the quality of player we would want, not sure we could get much more than a Shaver like guy at best. When I look at a guy like High. no matter if you think he will be ready to give us much or not next season, I think he is a solid upgrade from Shaver and I don't think we would be able to find a guy that is better fit than High that would be willing to take so few minutes to back up Bacot so I think we already have that guy, he is 6'10" and last I heard weighted in at 225lbs and he will be a freshman next season.
I hear you. But the guy you are describing - someone willing to play only 10 minutes - is unlikely to be much help if Armando gets hurt.
Adding that 10-min guy would give us a bigger committee to sub in for Armando. So that would be some help. But the guy who could replace Armando's 30 minutes isn't going to come for only 10 minutes. Unless maybe he has reason to think he could start the following year.
Which is how I would sell a guy like Udeh, if he is someone Hubert wants. He could get 12-15 mpg this season and have a legit chance to start next year. If that isn't appealing, oh well.
Look, I talk to some folks close to the program who mitigate that with the idea that the players who left weren't up to snuff in various ways. I counter with the fact that this could be said of most college players, including some very productive ones.
Y'all know I like this staff. They have continued/restored the sense of family and have been DOGS on the recruiting trail. They also successfully schemed around the lack of a PG to steal our way into the Natty game last year. With that said, this past season was a lousy job of handling personnel. Period.
So yes, I hope that a lesson was learned as you allude to.
So basically, you wanted Roy back for last season. Or Roy in his prime, maybe. For the reasons you mentioned, I suspect that would have given us a better season, not to mention better player development.
But what about with the guys we have now? HD now has guys who, in theory, fit his system better. Given that Roy probably would have coached last year's roster better, how do you think Roy would do with the current roster?
I, for one, thought we were one of the teams with a shot to win quite a bit. The players who returned from our Champ game run found a way to gel and I believed they would continue on the same arc. Our team result did suck but our team and coaches did not! That is simply ignoring every good thing that happened because it doesn't fit your revisionsist agendas! Our coach did need to grow, just like every new coach in the history of every sport! He has an elite skill in recruiting, a passion for the team and U, a staff that is varied and has pro experience, and a history that shows he is willing to look hard at himself and improve! Our team had a chance to win every game they played except for 2-3 and factors like health, camaraderie, bad bounces, and other players making winning plays impacted this! I disagree that you play peeps just because they are on your bench; rather I like the accountability required to let them sit there if they haven't made the effort in practice or shown improvement in the areas they were tasked with working on! Thousands of peeps have entered the portal so I don't think it says one single thing about the state of UNC but speaks volumes about the bball world! I firmly believe we will see growth in our coaching staff and I totally agree that with his own hand-picked players in the fold, Hubs will need to put up or he will be on a very warm seat!
Are we Family or Not? One cannot criticize the program for not operating like a Family and continue to snipe at every fault while ignoring anything good!
Are we Family or Not? One cannot criticize the program for not operating like a Family and continue to snipe at every fault while ignoring anything good!
Actually, if (when) Cadeau reclasses, Hubert and staff need to sit down with Roy for a refresher in the Carolina Secondary, and resist any and all temptation to reinvent the wheel.
@DSouthr I won't recycle our debates about last year and what was the most effective way to get more out of them. You and I just disagree. I think our players sucked and were almost entirely replaceable. To play one player who wasn't any good over another player who wasn't any good wouldn't have done much unless we had several 40% 3PT shooters laying around somewhere. I disagree we would've been any better last year if Trimble, Dunn, Styles, or McKoy played more. I was intrigued by Nickel and wish he played more. I also simply disagree that we should've played faster last year. I don't think you should play faster if you aren't as good. To me, that's a recipe for disaster.
@gary-7 Yes, I would like a player comp for Dunn, but whatever not all that important. I do like the idea of getting a scoring wing. I don't think anyone on the roster is a natural scorer. RJ and Bacot are more lunch pail guys who have to put in a lot of effort to score. Would love a wing who's a legitimate 3-level scorer. I don't think you can ever have enough 6'6"-6'9" dudes who can score from all levels.
@gary-7 Yes, I would like a player comp for Dunn, but whatever not all that important. I do like the idea of getting a scoring wing. I don't think anyone on the roster is a natural scorer. RJ and Bacot are more lunch pail guys who have to put in a lot of effort to score. Would love a wing who's a legitimate 3-level scorer. I don't think you can ever have enough 6'6"-6'9" dudes who can score from all levels.
During Roy's time at UNC, he never did anything with teams that didn't have dudes who were (or would've been) 1st round picks that year. If you take the NCAA Tournament out of it, the 2005-06 year's team overachieved but was never a March threat.
Hubert in 2022 did something Roy never did. He took a group of guys who would be forgotten in 10 years, and they went to the National Championship game. Roy missed the NCAA tournament with more talent.
1990-91 Kansas Jayhawks Men's Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
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I meant never did at UNC.1990-91 Kansas Jayhawks Men's Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Check out the detailed 1990-91 Kansas Jayhawks Roster and Stats for College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
I agree with you Gary. By the way my name is Chad. I don’t know if I officially introduced myself to you in the past. I really like the way we are connecting to players on the recruiting trail like the days of old. However, unless Hubert and the staff do not show progress in making and developing players there will be a change. I am a big fan of Hubert and our entire coaching staff as well. Adding Marcus Paige to the Program just solidifies them that much more. Our staff has got to do a much better job in game coaching along with substitution patterns, defense assignments, traps, secondary break, etc.. That will allow players to develop in which it will improve their overall confidence and they be far better assets to the overall team and Program throughout the season and beyond. Plus Hubert has got to make starters held accountable for their mistakes, lack of effort, etc… It is a domino effect. Elliot Cadeau will transform this team overnight into a legit contender if he is used correctly
We absolutely could use a high-level 3. Would be shocked if Hubert turned that guy down if he were willing to come. You don't lose out on a top player to protect depth players' minutes.
If Cadeau, Davis, Ryan, Ingram, Bacot, and a wing are your top 6 they can all average 30 minutes a game and you'd still have 20 minutes for other guys. If a few of them are at 25 minutes a game you can have Withers, Washington, and one of Trimble/Wilcher/Wojcik get 10-15 minutes each. There's plenty of room.
So @RoseHeel ... what about this exactly do you find so amusing?
...with how many former Top 100 players on that roster? With how many McD all Americans on that roster? There are Power 5 schools who break rules and end up with less talent than what we had; there are championship teams that won with much less than that in the last 5 years alone.
But sure, beat this horse till it dies.
The team for the last couple seasons were recruited to play in more of Roy's preferred style, an up and down game that featured athletism. Sorry but that is just the style a guy like Styles fit for example. You tell me, 2 centers on the floor together what style fits better, a spread jump shooting offense or the twin tower look that Roy loved? The personal simply did not in any way fit a spread offense that required great jump shooting from a bare minimum of 3 positions on the floor.
So yes, appears Hubert is all in on the spread game with heavy jump shooting, he has now brought in guys that fit that style of play (guys that will actually spread the defense rather than just us spreading our offensive players while the defense continued to pack the paint). Hard to say if how Hubert wants to do things is better than Roy's or not, can't really get a feel for that until Hubert gets players in that fit his jump shooting way he wants his guys to play. He has that now, next season we can see how this style works or doesn't. I don't love this style of play personally but me, I want 40mins of hell Nolan Richardson combined with the old Tark the shark offensive explosion, with Dean Smith primary and secondary breaks, oh and I want them to hit their free throws to! LOL
Note to self, have to find a way to incorporate "hanging Chad" in to a future replay, suggestion, "don't get hung up on that Chad"..LOL
The only remaining NBA player from the ‘17 roster is Theo… and he’s really only being paid to cheer on Luca Doncic.
Got me there! Point being, it was a good team, but not brimming with huge talent.
Thanks Dave… pretty close to my thinking on most points.
Basically, I believe Hubert squandered the early season which is a time to blood players instead of reinventing the offence and playing the starters 30+ minutes.
But it’s all water under the bridge now… his challenge now is to satisfy almost an entire roster who’ve transferred in expecting game time (yikes!)
Let’s hope they’re not “fake good” FFS! What is that BS???
You need a certain level of talent to be drafted in the first round. Is this really even a question? That 2017 team was a lot more talented. They had an NBA 1st round big guy off the bench, so Meeks and Hicks could afford to play 25 minutes/game.
Also, wasn't Jackson, Berry, Hicks, Bradley, and Theo all top 25 incoming recruits. I'm not going to say recruiting rankings are everything but we're talking about a bunch of incoming top 25 guys vs incoming top 40-80 guys. We had 2 elite prospects last year. Caleb and Armando.
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I hafta take some issue there. Every single one of those guys in our 2017 top-6 could play with anybody, and were HS AAs.
Unfortunately for their post-college dreams, there's often a distinction within and among very talented players as to what particular traits happen to fit the curent NBA prototypes --- or even something as random as which teams are looking for which attributes at a particular time, or simply whether a player is in the right place at the right time when a given team's need arises and/or are willing to give him a chance (this last part was told to me directly by an NBA scout a couple of years ago, BTW).
In a different era or set of circumstances, any or all of Berry/Pinson/Jackson/Hicks/Meeks/Bradley might still be in the league.
I’ll reply to you Gary… you’re more than a “fake good” poster.
Agreed, the ‘17 team was talented, especially for the college game which is very different to the NBA, however I believe they weren’t ‘05 or ‘09 type talented… nor ‘12 talented either.
Appreciate the "endorsement"
As to your point, I would actually use those comparisons to back up my point., to wit. the best player on that loaded 09 team washed outta the NBA early, and sadly, this was due to the arbitrary nature of the league I talked about in my last post --- while in contrast, a role-player on that squad has notched the longest NBA career of the bunch.
As for comparisons in college (which is after all what counts for us), I wouldn't undervalue that 17 team against anybody --- they had something special. And boy, wouldn't it be fun if we could see a real-in-time game between 09 and 17? That would be a f***ing WAR!
Maybe I'm the only one who uses "fake good"?
Example: the Minnesota Vikings last year were fake good. I think they won a record number of one score games in NFL history (don't quote me though). They had a negative point differential for the regular season. I think Vegas had them power rated as like the 21st best team in the NFL. They went 13-4. Example of fake good. One score game win rate not sustainable. Negative PD over 17 games was a better indicator of the quality of their team vs their record.
One of my favorite teams in NFL history... The 2001 Chicago Bears. They gave up the fewest points in the NFL, but ranked 19th in yards allowed. A defense that was overly reliant on turnovers. Something probably not sustainable. They won 2 games in overtime off batted ball pick-6's. 8-1 in one score games. Extremely limited offense. Jim Miller was their starting QB. They went 13-3. They were fake good.
Long story short, fake good to me is you're not as good as your record indicates.
Don't worry. You don't have to reply to this "fake good" poster though!!!
I believe I read that Dunn was the last of Roy’s recruits somewhere if so then let’s see what Hubert can do with “his guys”. I could be wrong though
My point is there is no such thing as "fake good", you are as good as what you achieve, our last team was exactly as good as what they achieved. Now of course players can and do either over or under achieve their perceived talent level, we under achieved ours last season, good case to be made we over achieved it the season before. Reality is not in the perception, it is in the results...
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