Experienced players vs Freshmen Mickey D’s
- Thread starter IDUNK4HEELS
- Start date
Yep. Give me the experienced players! If you care about draft picks, take the freshman McDonald's all Americans
I'll take experience over talent everytime and we have experienced talent now! As puke found out it is a potent combo!
We're a year removed from experience being pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. That experience also lost twice to a pretty freshman-dominant Duke team.
So it's clear that you need the right kind of experience if you're going to lean on an older team. You need the right kind of freshman if you're going to lean on a freshman-dominant team.
I'll agree that it's probably really difficult to win with a freshman being the best player on your team in today's game. However, if you offer me Kevin Durant, Tyler Hansbrough, Anthony Davis, or Karl Anthony Towns... I'll probably take my chances with them and live with the results.
Fortunately, looks like this year's UNC team has the right kind of experience mixed with a talented freshman PG.
Good point that if you have one of the best players to ever dribble a bball you can win while they are young.....If you offer me Antawn Jamison, Phil Ford, and Rasheed Wallace as freshmen, I guess I'd be OK and If an experienced team was dysfunctional, I guess freshmen could win, but does any of this have anything to do with the point? UNC has experienced talent that FITS and mollywhopped the Elite youngsters in Durm seems like a good point too! Did we win due to talent, experience, or coaching? In general, experience will trump talent given an even playing field but all systems have outliers!
Truth is you need a mix and especially now days. Look at the guys that get PT with us, how many 3 stars do you see? Look at us last season, how many 3 stars or less did we play? Now you do see guys that used to be 3 stars yet come to the college game and play well above that level but other than maybe Kalipari, what other coach cares more about where a kid is ranked than how he plays?
Take Banchero for duke, is there a team in the country he would not have started for as a freshman like he did for duke? Yet he had the lack of experience, I like having a solid core built over time, bring in coachable freshmen that have solid talent (4 and 5 stars) and fill immediate needs via the portal. The shark has jumped the 1&D programs, wonder how long it will take them to notice, there are a LOT of pissed off Ky and duke fans that seem to have already noticed that! LOL
I think it's been clearly demonstrated over time that teams loaded with upper classmen are the usual standouts. But that assumes those upperclassmen have been playing together for at least several years. This team has a depth of experience, but they have largely only played this one season. together and that is high tribute to the coach who has somehow brought our success about. Hats off to Hubes.
That being said, I still prefer the more traditional ways of building a team.
That being said, I still prefer the more traditional ways of building a team.
BY traditional I assume you are saying bring them in as freshmen and develop them over their years of eligibility to become factors for us usually by their Jr season. Yeah, I liked that more than the 1&D nonsense but now days that kid that sat on your bench for 2 seasons and has developed is now looking to leave, see Styles and Dunn as recent examples. There were what, over 1,000 guys in the portal this last time around and all of them developed to some extent that are all now looking for a place they can get solid PT and maybe start. So the traditional way doesn't work like it used to?
Hit the nail on the head Dave.
Experience + Talent.
But I'd add:
1. the right pieces in the right places (see our back court last yr vs this year)
2. Chemistry - this years team has it in bucket loads
yessir, that's what I meant. And of course you're right about the way it is now, and I don't think the way it is now is necessarily all bad. It's good for the players probably, but it isn't as good for team building, that's for sure.
When you bring on freshmen and have them practice with the more experienced players who know the system, those older players become coaches themselves, and when those freshmen become upper classmen, they have 1) the system entrenched and 2) familiarity with the play of the other players, and 3) a sense of shared ownership. If the talent and attitude are there, championships can be won.
So big picture, I agree. I think it's more difficult to be completely dependent on a loaded OAD team. Those elite top 10-20 guys have much more options than when it was only Kentucky doing it that aggressively. Kentucky initially had an advantage because this was a market inefficiency and they took advantage of it and had IMO really good success with it. 4 Final Fours in 5 seasons, 1 championship, 1 undefeated regular season. IMO, that's success. Others may disagree.
Today, you likely don't have as much talent to choose from because maybe 2-5(?) go to the G-League or go overseas. So that immediately takes away 10-20% of the top-level recruits that used to be more consistently available. So Kentucky and Duke had an advantage with this. Now, I think they have far less of an advantage. Plus, you have recruits going to pretty random places now. No offense to Rutgers, but they have two top 5 guys coming in next year. That at least tells me that the market has been fully exploited and it's probably a disadvantage today to lean so heavily into that.
I'll probably go as far as to say that experienced teams should beat freshmen today. I really don't think the OAD teams today are as devastating talent-wise as they were 5 years ago, and for sure weren't 10 years ago.
Much different game today. A lot of legendary coaches are gone so do all of these great programs have the equity that they had when K, Boeheim, Roy were there? I don't know. Also, the game is much more perimeter and pace-and-space oriented. That takes time and experience to create that chemistry. If you just roll the ball on the floor and let dudes go 1-on-1, you'll get eaten alive in today's game. All that in mind, probably takes some experience to play at a high level.
But who knows? Maybe these things go in cycles.
The OAD thing was successful though. That's something I don't think people will admit. Cal had an incredible run when he was the only one doing it. K won a title, made a Final Four (lost in the final minute plus), and lost 2 elite 8 games (one in OT and one by one point in regulation). Really thin margins to K potentially changing the entire narrative (an incorrect one IMO) that you can't win with OADs.
Totally agree and frankly, fit (another way of saying chemistry but as well wraps in your first point about being the right pieces) may be the most important consideration of all. Example, 2 guys came to us season before last via the portal. Most folks were extremely excited when Garcia committed to us, when Manek committed there was not nearly the same level of excitement but Manek fit, like hand to glove and Garcia just didn't. I hope you didn't buy the "sick relative" deal, that was a smoke screen, I didn't buy that for a second, Garcia was just mad that he was not going to start ahead of Manek when he came back from that "injury". Really talented player but a really bad fit, Nance to me was also a really talented player but he didn't fit our area of need.
Having AAAA type players who are good and stick around is an advantage. With the covid year we are VERY old. Nowadays the next level talent needs to go to develop, it leaves a wet behind the ears 18/19 elite talent facing 24/25 grown men experienced at the college level for a year. In the long run, the young buck playing up for thier development gets better, but the advantage to win that given year, 100% old seasoned vet playing the elite high school kids.
Hard to find that happy medium. Next year we will be young.
Hard to find that happy medium. Next year we will be young.
I disagree on the excitement between Garcia and Manek coming in. Garcia was young and had the bigger upside. Manek was already a ALL big 12, all- conference Big 12 STAR, and THE ELITE stretch 4 shooter big available, BAR NONE in the nation. Look back at the posts if you think otherwise. Old vet already established/ young buck more versatile.
The trepidation was he is joining after Garcia. Similar position, how do they mesh. Garcia is a top 10 finalist along with Bacot for the Jabbar award this year. Young talent/old vet comparison. They were splitting time, with similar numbers, not a good situation
I do not get personal, but screw you doubting his families health and deaths. Ya, you know how the deaths hit him. Bad hot take buddy!
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I stated my opinion as to the excitement level between our getting Garcia and Manek and I 1000% believe the excitement level was a good bit less for Manek. I never said Garcia was not talented, he is very talented. This has nothing to do with how the kid is playing today for the team he now plays for. But there were chemistry issues with him at UNC and he was very upset that he was not going to get his starting role back from Manek after missing a couple games. I gave this very opinion of Garcia directly after that official announcement was made and got a ton of push back for saying it. It was smoke then and it still is and I get why they treated it this way because it allowed for there to be no bad guy, it glossed over the chemistry issues that had popped up and allowed everyone to move on.
But there were no calls from his team mates to him, from his team mates own mouths, Garcia did not call his team mates either, not even to wish them good luck in their natty run. IN fact when our players were asked if Garcia had called them they laughed before they said no.
I won't speculate on the Garcia situation.... none of us KNOW the truth.... but when we speak 'fit' all we have to do is look at last years back court:
Together, RJ and Love fit like square pegs in round holes.... now separately they're both having all-conference, if not maybe, all-american seasons.
Together, RJ and Love fit like square pegs in round holes.... now separately they're both having all-conference, if not maybe, all-american seasons.
He had plenty of options of where to go to. He went back home, to a not strong team. The 'bullshit' call of the deaths and illnesses in his family and doubting his belief to be there for them seems reckless and in poor judgement.
To the point of their portal commits, Manek and Garcia, it is there to see in real time. Go back and look at the reactions. Manek was the proven veteran star player, ALL BIG 12, THE ELITE SHOOTING BIG . Garcia was the young buck, 3 years to play, with potential. Garcia was first to commit. The trepidation was with bringing in a 5th year 1 year guy with the young transfer you just sold on at that spot. Not on Garcia being the better as is player at that point. Manek was a known All- conference as is vet.
Garcia was a priority recruit the year before, his last 3 were UNC, IU, Marquette coming out of high school. Look back st the comments when Manek transferred, it does not fit your recollection.
To the point of their portal commits, Manek and Garcia, it is there to see in real time. Go back and look at the reactions. Manek was the proven veteran star player, ALL BIG 12, THE ELITE SHOOTING BIG . Garcia was the young buck, 3 years to play, with potential. Garcia was first to commit. The trepidation was with bringing in a 5th year 1 year guy with the young transfer you just sold on at that spot. Not on Garcia being the better as is player at that point. Manek was a known All- conference as is vet.
Garcia was a priority recruit the year before, his last 3 were UNC, IU, Marquette coming out of high school. Look back st the comments when Manek transferred, it does not fit your recollection.
As I have said constantly for years, Talent + experience wins! Fit and/or Chemistry is also necessary but those things can come with the other two and good coaching! Garcia never fit here and I had no problem with him leaving at the time. I refuse to question the motive of the transfer for two reasons: 1. What good can come from the speculation? 2. Does it really matter since both parties are doing well? Caleb leaving is the same for me-it is a win-win so God Bless him and I will always support his career since he is Family! I was surprised by TNick and Dunn but they have the right to go where they feel more comfortable and I wish them well!
UNC is rolling right now and I pray it continues! Roy was a genius for many reasons, not the least of which is his ability to build almost perfect teams through strategic recruiting + development! His multi-year cycles were brilliant! Now, Hubs has proved to be brilliant too, albeit in a completely different system!
UNC is rolling right now and I pray it continues! Roy was a genius for many reasons, not the least of which is his ability to build almost perfect teams through strategic recruiting + development! His multi-year cycles were brilliant! Now, Hubs has proved to be brilliant too, albeit in a completely different system!
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I simply recall it differently but it really doesn't matter at this point, I do and very likely always will see Garcia about the same as I do the Ware twins or larry Drew. Doesn't really matter how either of us see it, all that matters is UNC and the players ended up in a better situation.
I did not, I do not believe that smoke screen story, yes he went back home, he went back home for the same reason GG ended up at South Carolina. You can believe that there was no contact with that family from Minn if you want, I chose to see it differently. I do find it funny that everyone wants to persecute Drew for his leaving the team in mid season to go back home because he had lost his starting job to kendal and yet the very same thing happens with Garcia and folks take up for him? Excuse me but I don't buy it.
