Freshman Point Guards

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Carolina has had a bunch of great point guards. Some were great out of the gate, some weren't but became great. Let's look at notable players in their freshman year. Not totally apples to apples, since Joel never started as a freshman, while Cole missed a bunch of games, Marcus shifted to SG later, and so on. But most started and played a lot of minutes.

I've bolded the top 2 in each column.

Player	Year	MPG	Pts	Asst	Stls	2%	3%	FT%	TS%
Felton	2003	35.4	12.9	6.7	1.6	44.1	35.8	69.3	51.9
Lawson	2007	25.7	10.2	5.6	1.5	56.4	35.6	68.8	58.1
Marshall	2011	24.6	6.2	6.2	1.1	43.4	37.7	69.0	51.8
Paige	2013	29.2	8.2	4.6	1.4	36.8	34.4	83.6	48.3
Berry	2015	13.2	4.2	1.5	0.4	45.1	35.4	75.7	53.6
White	2019	28.5	16.1	4.1	1.1	49.8	35.3	80.0	55.5
Anthony	2020	34.9	18.5	4.0	1.3	40.2	34.8	75.0	50.1
Davis	2021	22.3	8.4	1.9	0.7	37.0	32.3	82.1	47.5
Cadeau	2024	23.8	7.3	4.1	0.8	48.1	18.9	64.8	47.5

 

[Kool1234567]

Give me Lawson this year and we are still playing…Hope EC makes the jump next year…

 

[notashelbyfan]

Give me Lawson this year and we are still playing…Hope EC makes the jump next year…

When he wanted to score you could not stop it.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Give me Lawson this year and we are still playing…Hope EC makes the jump next year…

Ditto if we have Felton or Coby White. Maybe some others too.

Which in not to blame Elliot; just to acknowledge how ready some other guys were as freshmen.

 

[imajericho]

Ditto if we have Felton or Coby White. Maybe some others too.

Which in not to blame Elliot; just to acknowledge how ready some other guys were as freshmen.

Just multiply Cadeaus 3% by 1.8 and we are still playing.

Just the ability to have that somewhere in the low 30s opens up the rest.

 

[sctarheel30]

When he wanted to score you could not stop it.

Hard for EC to score or create anything sitting beside the coaches but agree loved Felton or lawson’s desire and speed

 

[Quest4Seven]

imagine only looking at stats and not the games and the average person would think KM was the best 3 point shooter lol

I have full faith in Cadeau though. He is too talented to not be able to at least learn how to hit a set shot at a 35% clip. His first step and ability to finish at the rim is so lethal that he will always be given room to shoot

 

[gary-7]

Hard for EC to score or create anything sitting beside the coaches but agree loved Felton or lawson’s desire and speed

Exactly. Threads like this are meaningless. The issue from day one was not our PG but his USE and/or lack thereof.

And if he had been used more wisely Thursday we'd instead most likely be talking about our upcoming matchup with Clemson.

 

[Kool1234567]

Exactly. Threads like this are meaningless. The issue from day one was not our PG but his USE and/or lack thereof.

And if he had been used more wisely Thursday we'd instead most likely be talking about our upcoming matchup with Clemson.

No 1 issue all year was I PG was poor shooter and that is a fact…It’s okay because I think he makes a huge jump next year but facts are he couldn’t hit jump shots this year…So go ahead and admit you were wrong and STFU…

 

[gary-7]

No 1 issue all year was I PG was poor shooter and that is a fact…It’s okay because I think he makes a huge jump next year but facts are he couldn’t hit jump shots this year…So go ahead and admit you were wrong and STFU…

Go ahead and GFY... again.

 

[pittsburghheel]

I think Cadeau is a nice young man with passion to match his talent…no doubt he will be a better shooter in the near future and raise his game to be a top tier PG. He is not a Cole Anthony or Coby White kind of player but they weren’t true points.
All of those other point guards (Felton, Lawson, Marshall, Paige/Berry, heck even King Rice) had FINISHERS on their team.
I don’t think we had the same level of talent, support, or even depth as most of those other teams did. Is there anyone outside of Ingram that even has a chance to make an NBA roster? Some of those teams had pro-talent coming off the bench.

 

[Heelicious]

I think Cadeau is a nice young man with passion to match his talent…no doubt he will be a better shooter in the near future and raise his game to be a top tier PG. He is not a Cole Anthony or Coby White kind of player but they weren’t true points.
All of those other point guards (Felton, Lawson, Marshall, Paige/Berry, heck even King Rice) had FINISHERS on their team.
I don’t think we had the same level of talent, support, or even depth as most of those other teams did. Is there anyone outside of Ingram that even has a chance to make an NBA roster? Some of those teams had pro-talent coming off the bench.

Especially the 2005 and 2009 teams. In ‘05, great finishers like May and McCants. And Marvin Williams !!! Off the bench.

Then - I watched the 2009 title game again last night. What fun - what a dominant team.

off the bench- Ed Davis, Bobby Frasor; and then guys like Zeller and Ginyard barely even were able to play but still the team smashed everyone. And everyone in the starting 5 was an A+ finisher. What a great team.

I don’t think one person on this 24 team would make the starting lineup for the ‘09 team. Maybe HI at the 4 but that’s it.

 

[DaveChapelle]

"The best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores." - Dean Smith

 

[pittsburghheel]

"The best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores." - Dean Smith

So true in its time, but now it’s outdated. At least, if those freshmen are five star talents.
Dean Smith also said that a college scholarship was a form of payment which is why scholar athletes should not get a stipend.
It’s hard to disagree but now looking back, NIL will hopefully keep more kids in college.

 

[Steat]

Cadeau's shooting woes were severe even by freshman standards. Teams ran away from him and to some extent Trimble as well. They also ran away from Leaky last season. On the other hand, if RJ, Cadeau and Trimble return, I see Trimble minutes reducing considerably. There is simply not enough room for non-shooters after this past season.

In WWJD's chart, Cadeau's 3pt percentage was 18.9%. Think about that for a moment. All our other star point guards shot over 30% their first year.

I don't expect Cadeau's to improve his shooting to be as good as Mark Sears, but I'm hopeful that he can give us more than this past season.

Check out this Twitter on Mark Sears. You leave Sears alone at your peril.




UNC isn't alone in having low volume/poor three-point shooters in the lineup, but I do think Hubert has not cracked the code on the best way to punish opponents for playing that way. Hubert must be extremely fed up with it.

My hope is that Hubert spends a fair amount of time finding portal additions to force teams out of those defenses (i.e. Alabama second half plan) or else lighting them up for trying it.

Withers is another player that may leave. He is going to have to become much more predictable in order to win Hubert's trust. Coaches don't like unpredictable players and won't tolerate it in someone who is a 4th or 5th option. IMO Withers never is going to be a featured scorer so he's going to have to become more reliable in his role. In my opinion, I think he leaves.

UNC needs to add "proven shooters".

 

[pittsburghheel]

Cadeau's shooting woes were severe even by freshman standards. Teams ran away from him and to some extent Trimble as well. They also ran away from Leaky last season. On the other hand, if RJ, Cadeau and Trimble return, I see Trimble minutes reducing considerably. There is simply not enough room for non-shooters after this past season.

In WWJD's chart, Cadeau's 3pt percentage was 18.9%. Think about that for a moment. All our other star point guards shot over 30% their first year.

I don't expect Cadeau's to improve his shooting to be as good as Mark Sears, but I'm hopeful that he can give us more than this past season.

Check out this Twitter on Mark Sears. You leave Sears alone at your peril.

View embedded media

UNC isn't alone in having low volume/poor three-point shooters in the lineup, but I do think Hubert has not cracked the code on the best way to punish opponents for playing that way. Hubert must be extremely fed up with it.

My hope is that Hubert spends a fair amount of time finding portal additions to force teams out of those defenses (i.e. Alabama second half plan) or else lighting them up for trying it.

Withers is another player that may leave. He is going to have to become much more predictable in order to win Hubert's trust. Coaches don't like unpredictable players and won't tolerate it in someone who is a 4th or 5th option. IMO Withers never is going to be a featured scorer so he's going to have to become more reliable in his role. In my opinion, I think he leaves.

UNC needs to add "proven shooters".

Anyone here, Allie LaForce talking to Sears after the game about his crazy practice regiment?
Something like 150 makes every day before a game or something?

 

[NathanFielder]

Anyone here, Allie LaForce talking to Sears after the game about his crazy practice regiment?
Something like 150 makes every day before a game or something?

Sears also only attempted 43 3s as a freshman. So probably not a big enough sample size to say he was a bad shooter. He shot 85% from the FT line on 74 attempts as a freshman.

Not saying he didn't work hard. I'm sure all the really good players in CBB work their asses off. But I think Sears was probably a better shooter than his 3PT percentage as a freshman indicated. He shot 41% as a sophomore. I don't think he made a 50% improvement just because of hard work. There was probably a better percentage as a freshman if he took more 3s. Maybe it was a confidence thing too.

In fairness to Cadeau, he didn't take many 3s either. He only shot 53. I doubt he's an 18% 3PT shooter in reality. I'm guessing he's more in the mid 20s if he took more of them. It is troubling that he only shot 65% from the FT line though. But for some optimism, in his last 18 games he shot 76% from the FT line. So maybe we'll see improvement from him.

Harrison Ingram went from 31-32% to shooting 39% this year. Granted he got much more catch-and-shoot looks than he got at Stanford. Usually guys start from 25-30%, then try to improve. So Cadeau's climbing a steeper mountain perhaps.

Confidence will be a big thing for Cadeau. You know how most teams will play him. Has to make sure he believes in his ability to make those shots when the defense doesn't guard him.

 

[Heelicious]

Anyone here, Allie LaForce talking to Sears after the game about his crazy practice regiment?
Something like 150 makes every day before a game or something?

I heard the announcers mention it during the E8 game - Tide and Clemson.

Yes they said that over a spring / summer / fall (last season?) - Sears MADE 15 THOUSAND 3s.

And he still strives to MAKE (not just take) 150 3s per day on non game days. With that much repetition as long as you’re practicing good shooting form, you’re bound to get better.

Probably not to the same number extent but I’ve heard similar stories about RJ in the gym and his shooting.

Maybe coaches can get Trimble and EC on something of a similar program, but only if they work on any shooting form, mechanics first. Working on endless repeating of bad shooting form is counterproductive.

I thought “what a depressing non-value adding way to spend your time - shooting thousands of shots”. It doesn’t produce anything of value but if it ends up in an nba contract then it is time well spent for Sears.

 

[dtodd4475]

I heard the announcers mention it during the E8 game - Tide and Clemson.

Yes they said that over a spring / summer / fall (last season?) - Sears MADE 15 THOUSAND 3s.

And he still strives to MAKE (not just take) 150 3s per day on non game days. With that much repetition as long as you’re practicing good shooting form, you’re bound to get better.

Probably not to the same number extent but I’ve heard similar stories about RJ in the gym and his shooting.

Maybe coaches can get Trimble and EC on something of a similar program, but only if they work on any shooting form, mechanics first. Working on endless repeating of bad shooting form is counterproductive.

I thought “what a depressing non-value adding way to spend your time - shooting thousands of shots”. It doesn’t produce anything of value but if it ends up in an nba contract then it is time well spent for Sears.

RJ and Sears came in with shooting as their strength though and improved from there to deadly. Cadeau and Trimble came in with shooting as their questionable skill.

 

[tarwhiz]

I think Cadeau is a nice young man with passion to match his talent…no doubt he will be a better shooter in the near future and raise his game to be a top tier PG. He is not a Cole Anthony or Coby White kind of player but they weren’t true points.
All of those other point guards (Felton, Lawson, Marshall, Paige/Berry, heck even King Rice) had FINISHERS on their team.
I don’t think we had the same level of talent, support, or even depth as most of those other teams did. Is there anyone outside of Ingram that even has a chance to make an NBA roster? Some of those teams had pro-talent coming off the bench.

Good post

 

[tarwhiz]

Especially the 2005 and 2009 teams. In ‘05, great finishers like May and McCants. And Marvin Williams !!! Off the bench.

Then - I watched the 2009 title game again last night. What fun - what a dominant team.

off the bench- Ed Davis, Bobby Frasor; and then guys like Zeller and Ginyard barely even were able to play but still the team smashed everyone. And everyone in the starting 5 was an A+ finisher. What a great team.

I don’t think one person on this 24 team would make the starting lineup for the ‘09 team. Maybe HI at the 4 but that’s it.

Nobody off this team starts or is even 6th man in 2009. Ed Davis was an absolute stud in the NCAAT that year. His and Zeller injuries killed us in 2010. I think that team would have eventually figured it out if it weren't for the injuries.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Anyone here, Allie LaForce talking to Sears after the game about his crazy practice regiment?
Something like 150 makes every day before a game or something?

Before his only season here I saw a longish video of Coby White's workout routine. Impressive. Sorry, I just looked for it but came up empty.

Lots and lots of shooting, mostly jump-stop from deep. Lots of reps with light weights. Lots of jumping. All pretty much non-stop.

 

[blazers]

Carolina has had a bunch of great point guards. Some were great out of the gate, some weren't but became great. Let's look at notable players in their freshman year. Not totally apples to apples, since Joel never started as a freshman, while Cole missed a bunch of games, Marcus shifted to SG later, and so on. But most started and played a lot of minutes.

I've bolded the top 2 in each column.

Player	Year	MPG	Pts	Asst	Stls	2%	3%	FT%	TS%
Felton	2003	35.4	12.9	6.7	1.6	44.1	35.8	69.3	51.9
Lawson	2007	25.7	10.2	5.6	1.5	56.4	35.6	68.8	58.1
Marshall	2011	24.6	6.2	6.2	1.1	43.4	37.7	69.0	51.8
Paige	2013	29.2	8.2	4.6	1.4	36.8	34.4	83.6	48.3
Berry	2015	13.2	4.2	1.5	0.4	45.1	35.4	75.7	53.6
White	2019	28.5	16.1	4.1	1.1	49.8	35.3	80.0	55.5
Anthony	2020	34.9	18.5	4.0	1.3	40.2	34.8	75.0	50.1
Davis	2021	22.3	8.4	1.9	0.7	37.0	32.3	82.1	47.5
Cadeau	2024	23.8	7.3	4.1	0.8	48.1	18.9	64.8	47.5

I like these lists.
You can't list them all, but might as well shout-out to UNC's only PG who was ACC Rookie of the Year - Ed Cota. Somebody had to get the ball to Twan and Vince
28.3 Min 8 Pts 6.9 Asst 1.7 steals .512 2% .32 3% .712 FT%

 

[Heelicious]

Before his only season here I saw a longish video of Coby White's workout routine. Impressive. Sorry, I just looked for it but came up empty.

Lots and lots of shooting, mostly jump-stop from deep. Lots of reps with light weights. Lots of jumping. All pretty much non-stop.

Coby white lit up the Minnesota wolves in Minnesota on Sunday. Bulls are playing a lot better and Coby is main reason why. He is in running for most improved in the nba and is borderline star.