TarHeelIllustrated - Frosh Camaign Gave Cadeau Fuel for His Next Step
To many, a lasting image of Elliot Cadeau’s freshman season is him sitting on the bench over the final 15:30 of North
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Frosh Campaign Gave Cadeau Fuel for His Next Step
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Fair write-up! Defense matters as much as any aspect of the game but many peeps are so blinded by the glory stats they ignore the gritty stuff that actually leads to sustained winning! You don't fight fire simply by pouring in more fire! It also takes tons of water AND strategic fires from your side! AND the decision worked! Maybe I imagined my beloved team getting off the mat and actually becoming competitive during those minutes! There would be no shot from JWit to fixate on if we hadn't actually gotten to the point where we had hope of winning! Peeps kill me focusing exclusively on the negative and, when evidence suggests something opposite, insisting on sticking to their assumed narratives! Dissention, my arse! I saw understandable anger, desire to win, and focus! I don't want peeps to be happy on the bench BUT I want them to do what they can while there to support the team! Cheer, coach, encourage, advise, learn why you are there, AND get ready to compete at a higher level when called!
Good ON EC and Hubs!
Good ON EC and Hubs!
I feel a bit like the bloom has sort of fell off the rose for many UNC Fans in regards to Cadeau. The hype was so strong for Cadeau coming in, really way to much to have been able to expect him being able to play up to the incoming hype. I think most all UNC fans fell for that to some extent, some more than others for sure.
I actually do think Cadeau will be one of if not THE best Pgs in the nation next season. He very clearly realizes his weaknesses, very clearly is dedicated in addressing those short falls, I can't wait to see his play with this current group. No matter who we have in as our center, we will not have Bacot and that is a bad but maybe as well a good thing. I say that because Bacot was never hard to find, he was never far from deep paint and that is where we wanted him to be but being there did clog the lane a bit, 2 bodies counting Bacot and his defender and many times his 2 defender. That limited driving lanes, a problem for guards like Cadeau and RJ that love to drive the lane and finish. This coming season, no matter who may be in as our center, they are not strictly deep in the paint guys that clog the lane, they are all more face the basket guys that will take jump shots, at times out to the trey that clear the paint rather than clog it. That should open things wide open for what Cadeau loves to do and should as well feed RJ.
I think this sets Cadeau up really well for 6 assists a game and in some games double digit assists. If Cadeau jump shoots well it could be game over but what if he doesn't shoot much better? If his defender does not also have the Bacot defender to have to deal thru, do you really still back off Cadeau and dare him to jump shoot? Would you really want to back off Cadeau, give him 7-10 feet with nothing but his guard defender deep in the paint, don't think I would, Cadeau is to good a finisher for that?
I actually do think Cadeau will be one of if not THE best Pgs in the nation next season. He very clearly realizes his weaknesses, very clearly is dedicated in addressing those short falls, I can't wait to see his play with this current group. No matter who we have in as our center, we will not have Bacot and that is a bad but maybe as well a good thing. I say that because Bacot was never hard to find, he was never far from deep paint and that is where we wanted him to be but being there did clog the lane a bit, 2 bodies counting Bacot and his defender and many times his 2 defender. That limited driving lanes, a problem for guards like Cadeau and RJ that love to drive the lane and finish. This coming season, no matter who may be in as our center, they are not strictly deep in the paint guys that clog the lane, they are all more face the basket guys that will take jump shots, at times out to the trey that clear the paint rather than clog it. That should open things wide open for what Cadeau loves to do and should as well feed RJ.
I think this sets Cadeau up really well for 6 assists a game and in some games double digit assists. If Cadeau jump shoots well it could be game over but what if he doesn't shoot much better? If his defender does not also have the Bacot defender to have to deal thru, do you really still back off Cadeau and dare him to jump shoot? Would you really want to back off Cadeau, give him 7-10 feet with nothing but his guard defender deep in the paint, don't think I would, Cadeau is to good a finisher for that?
This needs to be his team. Period.
It's up to EC to step up to the task, which I have no doubt whatsoever he will, provided Hubert has the wisdom to let him drive the Ferrari without micromanaging.
It's up to EC to step up to the task, which I have no doubt whatsoever he will, provided Hubert has the wisdom to let him drive the Ferrari without micromanaging.
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I think Cadeau's inconsistency last year could work as a positive since it appears it limited some expectations from fans going into this season. And to a degree, it might have gone too far in the other direction.
I think he'll have a good year and be in the conversation for the best PG in the ACC. I don't know if he'll be the best PG in the country or not. I'm approaching it more baby steps because I view him more as a developmental prospect as opposed to a generational one.
And don't be mistaken. He must have some 3PT shooting credibility to individually get to where he wants to get to and for UNC to get to where they want to get to. They look like they only have 2 high volume efficient 3PT shooters on paper right now and Withers/Washington/Lubin/Jackson likely being more sporadic volume shooters. Cadeau needs to be able to shoot the ball with some kind of efficiency. I'll put the number at 30.0% just for the sake of throwing it out there.
I think his defense can be fine, but I don't see a plus defender because of his size. He's going to be at a physical disadvantage in some games. He did a much better job in the NCAA Tournament of not fouling. Does that continue or was that just 3 games out of 30+ last season?
BartTorvik's Elliot Cadeau's projection:
12.5 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
I think that would be a really good year for Cadeau. For me, I'm scoring a little bit fewer and adding an assist. These projections can obviously be pretty wacky. It has Jalen Washington averaging 2.9 PPG and playing only 5% of all minutes. Unless he suffers a season-ending injury, that projection will obviously be wrong. But last year, BartTorvik was probably the most accurate on Cadeau, especially over anyone here: 6.1 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 2.1 APG
I think he'll have a good year and be in the conversation for the best PG in the ACC. I don't know if he'll be the best PG in the country or not. I'm approaching it more baby steps because I view him more as a developmental prospect as opposed to a generational one.
And don't be mistaken. He must have some 3PT shooting credibility to individually get to where he wants to get to and for UNC to get to where they want to get to. They look like they only have 2 high volume efficient 3PT shooters on paper right now and Withers/Washington/Lubin/Jackson likely being more sporadic volume shooters. Cadeau needs to be able to shoot the ball with some kind of efficiency. I'll put the number at 30.0% just for the sake of throwing it out there.
I think his defense can be fine, but I don't see a plus defender because of his size. He's going to be at a physical disadvantage in some games. He did a much better job in the NCAA Tournament of not fouling. Does that continue or was that just 3 games out of 30+ last season?
BartTorvik's Elliot Cadeau's projection:
12.5 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
I think that would be a really good year for Cadeau. For me, I'm scoring a little bit fewer and adding an assist. These projections can obviously be pretty wacky. It has Jalen Washington averaging 2.9 PPG and playing only 5% of all minutes. Unless he suffers a season-ending injury, that projection will obviously be wrong. But last year, BartTorvik was probably the most accurate on Cadeau, especially over anyone here: 6.1 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 2.1 APG
THis definitely needs to be EC's car to drive IF he continues to put in the work and shows he can drive it well! Nothing should be given and everything earned! I am thrilled our coach doesn't bow to pressure and sticks to his guns! He demonstrates who is in charge on the court, in recruiting, and in practice!
I believe EC will put in some ALL-ACC type work this season! To be clear, I mean 1st Team ALL ACC. This means he will find ways to score, he will play good D, and he will shoot with confidence and effectiveness. I believe the bulk of his scoring will be in the mid-range, however and this is a great thing!
I believe EC will put in some ALL-ACC type work this season! To be clear, I mean 1st Team ALL ACC. This means he will find ways to score, he will play good D, and he will shoot with confidence and effectiveness. I believe the bulk of his scoring will be in the mid-range, however and this is a great thing!
I firmly disagree that the bulk of his scoring coming from the mid-range is a good thing. But hopefully he drastically improves on the 32.8% he shot on non-rim 2s last year (per BartTorvik). But if he turns out to be a plus mid-range shooter, then great.
I just don't see the evidence for that now. For starters he was a pretty bad FT shooter last season on top of everything. But maybe we'll see pretty significant growth in every shooting area next year for Cadeau.
When it comes to pure pg EC is exponentially better than RJ or anyone else on the roster atm .. not even close.
Why would him being a + mid range scorer possibly be a bad thing??? It seems obvious to me that scoring from the point is always good and if he is dangerous in the Mid range the defense has to react much more than before! This means multiple peeps collapsing on him and providing drop off and kick outs for more.open opportunities. Hubs spent time bringing in and developing shooters so EC skewing the D is great! I don't see a single connection between mid range and freethrow shooting. But it does mean he will get more opportunities so I'm sure he is working on that.
Well, I didn't say Cadeau being a plus mid-range shooter would be a bad thing. I said "But if he turns out to be a plus mid-range shooter, then great."
I think the likelihood is extremely small that an extremely poor mid-range shooter last year (at least off percentages) will improve drastically into a high-level mid-range shooter. For starters, it's the most inefficient shot in basketball overall. Certain players will be better at it but if you tracked every shot taken over the course of the year, the best shots will always be: layups/dunks, free throws and 3's.
I wouldn't encourage Cadeau to shoot mid-range jumpers. I would much rather have UNC's best shooters shooting a 3. But I admit, I look at basketball through a more statistical lens than most. I think it's an inefficient shot and most inefficient shots are bad shots IMO.
You said this:
" firmly disagree that the bulk of his scoring coming from the mid-range is a good thing"
AND
"I would much rather have UNC's best shooters shooting a 3."
So since we agree that EC hasn't been one of the best 3 point shooters and we know he needs to score; why wouldn't we want him to get better at the mid-range? Floaters, turnarounds, shorter jumpers are all mid-range and he can hit them. Once our new look bigs open up the lane, don't you expect him to shoot a better % at the rim??? FT and 3 pt shots are more confidence based than mid-range or at the rim finishes! I expect him to become way more proficient at finishing at the rim and floaters/short shots. I also feel he will shoot better from 3 too, but as long as he shoots with confidence and scores more we are golden!
" firmly disagree that the bulk of his scoring coming from the mid-range is a good thing"
AND
"I would much rather have UNC's best shooters shooting a 3."
So since we agree that EC hasn't been one of the best 3 point shooters and we know he needs to score; why wouldn't we want him to get better at the mid-range? Floaters, turnarounds, shorter jumpers are all mid-range and he can hit them. Once our new look bigs open up the lane, don't you expect him to shoot a better % at the rim??? FT and 3 pt shots are more confidence based than mid-range or at the rim finishes! I expect him to become way more proficient at finishing at the rim and floaters/short shots. I also feel he will shoot better from 3 too, but as long as he shoots with confidence and scores more we are golden!
A made basket is always 100% of the time better than one that is not made! It does not matter from where that made basket comes from, a make beats a miss. If Cadeau is more comfortable taking and making mid range jumpers or floaters by all means take them. I have never seen a situation where I said to myself or anyone else that darn, I sure wish he (UNC player) had not made that shot. Definitely never felt the notion to say I preferred a kid to not take the a shot he made in favor of him taking a harder shot for that shooter.
If RJ and Tyson are north of 40% from 3, yes I want them shooting 3s over Cadeau mid range 2s.
His floater game was horrendous last year. And I’ve mentioned that getting a floater game could be a game changer from him. I’m not all that worried about his finishing. While I think his layup game needs quite a bit of work, that’s not an area that’s a problem for him.
Also, I’ve never said you should avoid shots at the rim. I do think your offense should avoid mid range and long 2s. I don’t think an offense should only shoot 3s, lol. I know mid range shots will happen during the flow of a game. What I don’t want is Cadeau being left wide ass open from 3 and being afraid to shoot the open 3.
And no kidding if he makes a shot it’s better than a missed shot. Who’s arguing the other way??? Lol. I want UNC to win games. I don’t want them only winning games if they make a ton of 3s, lol.
"And no kidding if he makes a shot it’s better than a missed shot. Who’s arguing the other way???" Answer to your question is YOU !!!
Entirely false premise!
It is ridiculous to say a 3-point shooter's usage is somehow connected to EC making 2s. They are two different things, obviously! 1. Tyson and RJ should take the vast majority of our 3s. 2. EC hitting a floater, or any mid-range shot has nothing to do with either of them getting theirs! 3. EC hitting mid-range or rim shits skews the D so RJ and Tyson get more shots and easier shots! 4. Not one soul advocated for it being good for EC to pass up wide open 3-point shots! 5. Confidence is the only thing wrong with his free-throws and his 3 pointers! 6. I want EC taking open shots every time 2 conditions are met: A. He is on balance and the shot flowed from the offense. & B. He doesn't see anybody with a better shot!
It is not ridiculous to say Cadeau's 3PT shooting will not be connected to his 2PT shooting. If he needs to be guarded out to 3, it will make the entire freaking team better, including Cadeau. If he isn't, you're hoping that he can make mid-range jumpers consistently because you're taking away a potential way for him to score. Watch teams defend Dillon Brooks or Marcus Smart. How far an opponent defends players plays a very important factor in everything.
- It affects where you can ball screen
- It affects the type of ball screen because you can't slip a screen since defenders will go under every team
- You likely won't get a switch if the defense can just play drop coverage
And that's just the impact on ball screens.
1. Tyson and RJ should take the vast majority of our 3s.
Agreed. And I never said otherwise. I think they should be taking like 8 3s per game.
2. EC hitting a floater, or any mid-range shot has nothing to do with either of them getting theirs!
This depends and we won't know until we watch them. But I'm assuming Cadeau isn't a selfish scorer so RJ and Cade will get their opportunities. My point is if Cadeau struggles from floaters and the mid-range, I would rather have RJ and Tyson shooting 3s. And if Tyson and RJ and elite 3PT shooters (contested/uncontested/catch and shoot/off the bounce), I think those 2 are the 1 and 2 options.
3. EC hitting mid-range or rim shits skews the D so RJ and Tyson get more shots and easier shots!
This depends on a lot of factors. First off the type of team you're facing. If you face Alabama, I'm guessing Nate Oats will be happy to give up mid-range 2s if he's getting 3s on the other end. So this IMO depends more on the game and situations. Doesn't mean UNC won't win those games. But there will be coaches that are ok living with that. Nate Oats didn't exactly change his defense because Cadeau and Seth made 3s in the S16 either. Hubert did his work for him, lol.
4. Not one soul advocated for it being good for EC to pass up wide-open 3-point shots!
Again, this depends on how good of a 3PT shooter Cadeau is. I want him to get to the point where he doesn't pass up wide ass open 3s.
5. Confidence is the only thing wrong with his free-throws and his 3-pointers!
There's 0 evidence that this is right or wrong. We simply don't know. Hopefully, he will improve on his confidence. A mechanically perfect 3PT shooter wouldn't be shooting 18.9% from 3 even on low confidence IMO. But regardless, hopefully he improves.
6. I want EC taking open shots every time 2 conditions are met: A. He is on balance and the shot flowed from the offense. & B. He doesn't see anybody with a better shot!
My third condition is if it actually turns out that he improved as a shooter. I'm also not concerned in the least that Cadeau will take bad shots. My hope is that he improves his shooting and he actually hunts for his offense more. Because this team isn't littered with a bunch of dudes that can create their own shot. It looks like there are 2? RJ and Jackson?
BTW: 97% of the above is either completely wrong or simply negative spin on what is really happening!
EC has nothing wrong mechanically with his shot! EC suffered from the adjustment to college and confidence. IN his own words he said and it was confirmed by coaches and peeps who played with him in the past that:
"Cadeau said his shooting struggles weren't the result of any mechanical issues. Transitioning into a new role at the college level played more of a factor.
"It was just a big difference for me, a big adjustment," Cadeau said. "Something I never experienced in my life, not having the green light. So it just messed with me a little mentally, and I think I've adjusted well."
Case closed and expect him to take it personally if peeps want to sag off him this year! I truly wish they would!
EC has nothing wrong mechanically with his shot! EC suffered from the adjustment to college and confidence. IN his own words he said and it was confirmed by coaches and peeps who played with him in the past that:
"Cadeau said his shooting struggles weren't the result of any mechanical issues. Transitioning into a new role at the college level played more of a factor.
"It was just a big difference for me, a big adjustment," Cadeau said. "Something I never experienced in my life, not having the green light. So it just messed with me a little mentally, and I think I've adjusted well."
Case closed and expect him to take it personally if peeps want to sag off him this year! I truly wish they would!
Can't remember how many times I tried to say it during the season:
Confidence, and the lack thereof given him...
Bacot is not walking thru that door any longer with NCAA eligibility and I could go on for weeks on how that is a hard thing to deal thru for this coming season, I would not be telling anyone anything they don't already know. I believe it was Julie Andrews that said the amazing words "when God closes a door, some place he opens a window". The heck am I talking about, LOL? Give me a second to explain!
Freakin hate to relive it but truth is no better example than that last bama game. You saw it, Cadeau struggled bad to shoot it, Hubert lost faith in him for that game and well you saw that second half. Cadeau had to try to jump shoot because his defender backed way off him but in addition Bacot's defender was also deep in the paint, Cadeau had a longer PG as well as Bacot's defender he would have had to drive thru or around. I have offered more than once, a counter that may well have helped could have been to go to Jalen and use his ability at the 5 to step outside and jump shoot, a defender (the defending center) would be forced to go out with Jalen. That would mean not only would Cadeau have more room to drive but he would have only a single defender checking him and that defender was giving Cadeau space to get a head of steam, I will take Cadeau driving on a single defender that is giving him space.
Well here we are now, no Bacot, Jalen considered our starting 5, so what I have offered as a adjustment we could have made in that game is now looking like our base attack and I think may well work out for us. So I am not as worried about Cadeau jump shooting, he did shoot it much better in those couple scrimmages but not going to rely on that as a great example.
I counter with an alternate idea: EC was put on the bench because he was getting cooked trying to defend AND he was not contributing on O. It was crunch time and simply helping solve his offensive struggles wouldn't get us back in the game! It would also be debilitating for him to leave him out there to struggle!
Hubs' decision turned the game around and gave us a chance to win!
Let's celebrate the fact that this excellent young man used it as fuel to improve and didn't transfer or pout!
Hubs' decision turned the game around and gave us a chance to win!
Let's celebrate the fact that this excellent young man used it as fuel to improve and didn't transfer or pout!
LOL, so I would add to your counter and ask if it would have been better to pull Cadeau or pull Bacot and of course pulling Bacot would have been a harder decision. Clearly, if a kid is not getting it done on either end pulling him is not that bad a pill to swallow. But have to keep in mind, it wasn't just Cadeau that struggled to drive or jump shoot, RJ did as well. Just as clear is the fact that our back court was having to contend with a severe size mismatch that was just going to be a problem, a problem that I do feel using Seth more would have helped more in that second half. But don't really want to talk or re-argue that 1 game, it was one game after all, no matter the stakes.
I am more speaking to the coming season, now that Bacot is gone, Jalen is now our center, so what I offered as a possible adjustment for that bama game is now more what we will have to do with Jalen. Using Jalen like we did Bacot is a dog that WILL NOT hunt! I was making the case that now with Jalen as our 5, we will have to move him more outside the paint and in doing so he is the level of jump shooter that will force a big to step out with him, there by opening up the lane for Cadeau or RJ to operate one on one with a single defender rather than a long guard and big man defenders in the paint to deal thru.
Back to Cadeau and this coming season, was Cadeau given the keys and told this is your team to run, I felt more like he was allowed to borrow and use the keys rather than know they were his. Should he have been given total ownership of those keys with him being a reclassed freshman on a team that had the starting PG for UNC in the Natty game a couple seasons ago, a guy (RJ) that is still on our team? Very reasonable case that he was properly used last season even thou using a kid this way does ADD to diminishing confidence for a freshman, especially a reclassed freshman. Joel talked about confidence issues he went thru as a freshman PG, we all watched Seth totally melt down as his freshman season got deep. LOT of reasons for this but we all watched Cadeau struggle with his confidence. But now, rather than play year round pre-college ball, he is now in his first off season in a really long time. He can now not only get some down time to recharge but he now both knows what the level of competition is at this level and has the time to work on skill development, I think we will see a vastly improved player that has the keys fully in his hands where he can play free and easy as was the case before coming to UNC. KNOWING that your coach has full confidence in you means a TON!
Sorry to disagree, but Eliot's role and psyche was simply not managed optimally by the staff from the get-go. I know you love Hubert (as do I) but this wasn't his best look. EC should have started from game-one and been encouraged to shoot. I told folks on here that not doing that would hurt his confidence and it sure as hell did.
He has never been a gunner going back to his HS/AAU days. and he has the IQ to pick his shot attempts as a pass-first guy. And once he learned to avoid the "bait" fouls and giveaway fouls, he was pretty damned good defensively. This is a kid who has been trusted by every coach he's ever had and delivered accordingly. There was no good reason for that to be any different here.
EC is the sort of PG you hand the ball to and coach him on the fly as he learns. Thankfully he's back, and I have a notion that the staff will take a quite fdifferent approach with him this season --- because that NEEDS to happen. For this team to reach its potential it needs to be EC's team to run as an extension of the coach.
We actually agree and I do love Hubs, but I love UNC's coach more! I defended DES, Gut, Doh, Roy, and Hubs from the vicious and usually false libel on these boards! I agree with you that EC is that special dude that can be trusted to learn on the job and get better fast enough to not hurt the team. BUT this is all hindsight with me. I also know 5 things for sure:
1. Hubs had to learn on the job like every coach in every sport in history
2. Hubs job was not so solidified that he, unlike Roy, could afford to lose too many games!
3. EC was not the answer in the tourney (maybe because of the trust deficit) but still the move was warranted
4. RJ was never going to be pulled because he has that potential to put the team on his back at any moment
5. Bacot was an historical player and the anchor of the team so he wasn't being pulled
I believe it will all come together this season for Hubs, EC, and the 10 deep roster!
1. Hubs had to learn on the job like every coach in every sport in history
2. Hubs job was not so solidified that he, unlike Roy, could afford to lose too many games!
3. EC was not the answer in the tourney (maybe because of the trust deficit) but still the move was warranted
4. RJ was never going to be pulled because he has that potential to put the team on his back at any moment
5. Bacot was an historical player and the anchor of the team so he wasn't being pulled
I believe it will all come together this season for Hubs, EC, and the 10 deep roster!
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