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Goings on at my church

coryfly

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Aug 7, 2007
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So I figured this may be interesting to some of you here for a number of reasons. I go to a Methodist church here at home. We are decent sized church (about 90 for Sunday School and 230 or so for worship), not big by any means but not tiny. We are definitely in a rural area, though here in Clarksville nothing is too far from town. Anyway, recently the issue of homosexuality has been discussed at the conference level within the Methodist church. So there are some considered addendums or changes or whatever they are considering regarding that issue. I haven't really read up on them because I really do not care that much. However, there is a group at our church that has been meeting (a lot) to discuss the issue because a lot of people are apparently all worked up about it.

So, this evening I get a call from my sister-in-law about a meeting we are having about it in a couple of weeks. I was going to attend because I think it will be interesting and full of all sorts of shenanigans. Regardless of my feelings on the issue, I thought it would be fun. Now, my family is pretty influential in the church as my great uncle was wealthy and funded much of the renovations and Family Life Center stuff. Plus, my mother runs the nursery, uncle runs the trustees, great cousin runs missions, father was in charge of SPRC, etc... You know, country stuff. You know how it is. However, my family is also kind of split on social issues to a degree. Some are ultra conservative while others are kind of liberal on things. I have a large family though (we'll probably have 40-50 on my dads side get together for Thanksgiving and 30-40 for my mother).

Anyway, they are doing a small group table discussion at the meeting first followed by a larger group discussion. So, for the discussions they are wanting moderators for each table. Apparently, someone nominated me to be a moderator. Their goal is to twofold here. They want people who can be 'Switzerland', meaning remain neutral and just let people express their feelings. They also want people who will be willing to step in and take control if there is any 'bullying' or whatever. In other words, if you get all belligerent, the moderators need to be willing to stand up to people and keep the peace so we all can share lovingly or whatever. So when she mentioned someone who would not express their opinion too loudly I kind of laughed as I was surprised someone nominated me as I tend to enjoy arguing and perhaps even being contrarian just for kicks. Many don't know this though unless they have been in a Bible study or something like that with me. However, I was mainly nominated because at a discussion we had this past summer with small groups (first time we had ever done this and it was about a different topic, something not really controversial at all, just basically how we could reach more people) there was this gentlemen at my table who was extremely rude to this lady and I kind of let him know he was being inappropriate, which he was. So it makes sense in that regard.

Anyway, I know many here attend church and I have been on a number of committees before so am ok with this. It will be fun. Still, I like to argue/discuss so thought it was funny in that regard. I'm not generally one to keep my opinions to myself. The second part of the session I will be allowed to share my opinion though, so that should be fun. Now I have to read up on what it actually is the Methodist church is thinking of doing regarding this issue. People get really crazy about this stuff.

As much as we argue on here, just thought it was kind of funny and worth posting. Plus, I know there are a lot here who attend church so figured it would make sense to those guys/girls in terms of dealing with controversial issues in a pretty 'country' church.
 
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I commend your church for beIng willing to discuss the issue. You're def gonna have your hands full as a mod. this is the kind of issue that can create hard feelings in a church family and has potential to forever change the facemof the congregation. If its for the good or bad is subject to opinion i guess. You're gonna encounter two schools of thought

1. The bible is "THE" word of God with the old testament law and writings of Paul given the same weight as Jesus' teachings. In that light its easy to connect the dots to condemning homosexuality.

2. The bible has the word of God within it (Jesus' teachings) as well as laws (old testament) that dont apply to born again Christians and writings of Paul and others who while inspired by the holy spirit were still subject to sociological and environmental forces framing their OPINIONS. (aka being human)

Cory there is ONE THING that Jesus promises to provide if u ask for it and thats WISDOM. I would pray for that and encourage all the others involved to do as well.
 
I commend your church for beIng willing to discuss the issue. You're def gonna have your hands full as a mod. this is the kind of issue that can create hard feelings in a church family and has potential to forever change the facemof the congregation. If its for the good or bad is subject to opinion i guess. You're gonna encounter two schools of thought

1. The bible is "THE" word of God with the old testament law and writings of Paul given the same weight as Jesus' teachings. In that light its easy to connect the dots to condemning homosexuality.

2. The bible has the word of God within it (Jesus' teachings) as well as laws (old testament) that dont apply to born again Christians and writings of Paul and others who while inspired by the holy spirit were still subject to sociological and environmental forces framing their OPINIONS. (aka being human)

Cory there is ONE THING that Jesus promises to provide if u ask for it and thats WISDOM. I would pray for that and encourage all the others involved to do as well.


Yeah, it should be interesting. I agree on those being the two primary schools of thought we have at our church. I've discussed that very thing with numerous people leading up to all of this. I definitely will be seeking guidance through prayer for sure. For all the things I forget to pray for, and there are many, wisdom and discernment is one I seldom leave out. Whether I actually have it or not is obviously debatable.

We are having a meeting this Sunday with just the mods and committee members so hopefully we can discuss the right way to handle things there.
 
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I go to a very liberal Baptist church but even so I avoid getting involved in topics such as that.
 
I've had really bad luck with churches

We started southern baptist and went gung ho. My wife led the childrens ministry. One evening while prepping for summer bible school our pastor pinned her against the wall and turned off the light. She pushed him off and ran. We go to him, then to the "board". He denies it and we were ostracized from the church. Year later he had an affair and was fired.

After a year off we went to a non denominational church. We were staying low key as possible this time. I find out second hand that a youth leader, not the pastor who goes through a vetting process, but a 19 year old helper, has been over to my house to "counsel" my 14 year old daughter twice without either of us home or obviously knowing anything. The youth pastor knew about this. Although nothing evidently happened i was livid. The church stood behind the youth pastor. So we left. The youth leader got one of my daughters friends pregnant a year later. Got married, then divorced.

After another year or so off we start attending a presbyterian church real popular in our area. Seems fine. A speaker comes. A muslim convert. He proceeds to talk about how the muslims have a 10% birth rate compared to united states like 1.5 percent and so when u do the math (which he does with visual aids) its obvious muslims would outnumber christians in the us within ten years. People were ready to take up knives and pitchforks! I immediately knew this was bull shit so i go to the pastor the next day and prove the guys stats wrong. Pastor says it doesnt change the overall message and says the guy will be back. Cant say the same for us though.

Sigh
 
I've had really bad luck with churches

We started southern baptist and went gung ho. My wife led the childrens ministry. One evening while prepping for summer bible school our pastor pinned her against the wall and turned off the light. She pushed him off and ran. We go to him, then to the "board". He denies it and we were ostracized from the church. Year later he had an affair and was fired.

After a year off we went to a non denominational church. We were staying low key as possible this time. I find out second hand that a youth leader, not the pastor who goes through a vetting process, but a 19 year old helper, has been over to my house to "counsel" my 14 year old daughter twice without either of us home or obviously knowing anything. The youth pastor knew about this. Although nothing evidently happened i was livid. The church stood behind the youth pastor. So we left. The youth leader got one of my daughters friends pregnant a year later. Got married, then divorced.

After another year or so off we start attending a presbyterian church real popular in our area. Seems fine. A speaker comes. A muslim convert. He proceeds to talk about how the muslims have a 10% birth rate compared to united states like 1.5 percent and so when u do the math (which he does with visual aids) its obvious muslims would outnumber christians in the us within ten years. People were ready to take up knives and pitchforks! I immediately knew this was bull shit so i go to the pastor the next day and prove the guys stats wrong. Pastor says it doesnt change the overall message and says the guy will be back. Cant say the same for us though.

Sigh

Yeah, the church is its own worst enemy at times. Our church is a really good one IMO. I've been very lucky to have always attended there. Referencing your first two incidences, we have something called Safe Sanctuary that we have put in place. There was no incident that brought it on but just something we felt was important. Anyone who works with youth in any fashion has to go through the program and get certified before they can be a counselor, work in the nursery, etc... Even then there is never any situation where one adult is alone with any group of children or youth of any size. Also, family members can't be paired up either. It is a little extreme IMO (especially since some of us have been there for so long) but certainly protects the church from accusations and more important any child or vulnerable person.

I don't even understand the point of the Muslim stuff there. Was it just get people fired up against the Muslims?? That doesn't really seem like the Christian thing to do, which unfortunately means it probably fits in well with a lot of the Christian mindset these days.
 
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Cory sounds like you have some wise people in leadership there.

We've been lucky in that many of our elders have been there for years and are generally only concerned with that is best for church. I hope that as they pass on (which is currently happening at a rapid rate) the following generations don't screw it up.
 
Just follow what the scriptures says, pray about it, and leave everyone's opinions out of it. I think you are levelheaded enough to discerene Gods stance on this subject. I will say this, it has put some churches in a hard spot if they are scared of what public opinion is.
 
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I go to a small Methodist church and with a few exceptions, I couldn't imagine a more liberal congregation. Definitely would not be the slightest bit surprised to see a gay wedding ceremony there.
 
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I go to a small Methodist church and with a few exceptions, I couldn't imagine a more liberal congregation. Definitely would not be the slightest bit surprised to see a gay wedding ceremony there.
Good for them, and your congregation. Two men, or two women pledging their love, and loving each other unconditionally, and wanting to spend their lives together, in a devoted, committed relationship is perfectly fine with God.
 
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I go to a small Methodist church and with a few exceptions, I couldn't imagine a more liberal congregation. Definitely would not be the slightest bit surprised to see a gay wedding ceremony there.

I think we are a long way away from that at our church (which is ok with me as I firmly believe churches should completely be able to marry who they chose) but the changes the Methodist church are considering are for the most part simply language omissions (or commissions) from the doctrine
 
I think we are a long way away from that at our church (which is ok with me as I firmly believe churches should completely be able to marry who they chose) but the changes the Methodist church are considering are for the most part simply language omissions (or commissions) from the doctrine

Our place is a little different, to be sure. Kinda funny since it is the former church of Senator B Everett Jordan, who is no doubt rolling over in his grave at some of the goings on at the Saxapahaw UMC.

It's just a really liberal congregation mixed in with some genuine NC rednecks, some weird Yankees, a few professionals and some old southern money geezers.

But our pastor is pretty liberal (she has a standing "pints with the pastor" every first and 3rd wed at the local bar) and is very accepting of everyone. I love the place.
 
Yeah, our pastor is pretty liberal as well. Our last pastor (a lady, who was great despite being a Duke fan like a number of Methodist preachers in the south) was really liberal. Our congregation is a pretty good mix but those who are not liberal have powerful positions in the church and are very, very conservative.
 
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Yeah, our pastor is pretty liberal as well. Our last pastor (a lady, who was great despite being a Duke fan like a number of Methodist preachers in the south) was really liberal. Our congregation is a pretty good mix but those who are not liberal have powerful positions in the church and are very, very conservative.
Speak to your pastor about Mary Evans Thorne. She was the first American woman to be appointed a class leader in Methodism in Philadelphia around 1770. Before that, only men were ever allowed such a position, or any position of leadership (as per the interpretation of The Bible or "The Word of God" of that time). Maybe she can use that precedent and how women were finally accepted, and apply it to same-sex couples.

http://www.umc.org/who-we-are/timeline-of-women-in-methodism
 
Speak to your pastor about Mary Evans Thorne. She was the first American woman to be appointed a class leader in Methodism in Philadelphia around 1770. Before that, only men were ever allowed such a position, or any position of leadership (as per the interpretation of The Bible or "The Word of God" of that time). Maybe she can use that precedent and how women were finally accepted, and apply it to same-sex couples.

http://www.umc.org/who-we-are/timeline-of-women-in-methodism

She is my former preacher actually. I don't see her much at all anymore. I liked her a lot though. I don't particularly care about whether they get the Methodist church to change their stance on the marriage issue tbh. It just isn't that important. What I am all about is not hating on people so am for many of the language changes that are proposed.

Yes, for a long time women could hold no leadership positions at all. My grandmother once told me the last thing she ever wanted to see was a woman preacher. She was very much against it for whatever reason.
 
Just follow what the scriptures says, pray about it, and leave everyone's opinions out of it. I think you are levelheaded enough to discerene Gods stance on this subject. I will say this, it has put some churches in a hard spot if they are scared of what public opinion is.
A prayerful reading of Revelation chapters 1-3 (Seven Churches In Turkey) might help put things in perspective and bring some folks into obedience to God's Word. There is a special blessing for those who read it, and head it...
 
Just follow what the scriptures says, pray about it, and leave everyone's opinions out of it. I think you are levelheaded enough to discerene Gods stance on this subject. I will say this, it has put some churches in a hard spot if they are scared of what public opinion is.

I hope you don't wear clothes of blended fabrics or eat fish.
 
I hope you don't wear clothes of blended fabrics or eat fish.
GrayHead, the best way to deal with people like 'boy and Strum is to ignore them and let them continue to pile burning coals on their heads... Pointless to try to have meaningful discussion with them.
 
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GrayHead, the best way to deal with people like is ignore them and let them continue to pile burning coals on their heads... Pointless to try to have meaningful discussion with them.

Scripture clearly condemns eating fish and wearing clothes of multiple fabrics. You dont take it a la carte do you?
 
Scripture clearly condemns eating fish and wearing clothes of multiple fabrics. You dont take it a la carte do you?
I'm not an non-believing Jew, therefore such kosher requirements of the Law of Moses do not apply to me and other believers in Jesus Christ, Lord of Creation, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and End of all things... If you actually had any real knowledge and understanding of Scripture, you would know that we are save by grace, and that not of ourselves... Neither you nor nothing you spew on this site changes that one iota.
 
I'm not an non-believing Jew, therefore such kosher requirements of the Law of Moses do not apply to me and other believers in Jesus Christ, Lord of Creation, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and End of all things... If you actually had any real knowledge and understanding of Scripture, you would know that we are save by grace, and that not of ourselves... Neither you nor nothing you spew on this site changes that one iota.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Actually, I agree with it. However, one could apply the very same principles to many of the Pauline letters as well, which were written to specific churches and people for a reason. I'm all about the letters but that is one reason that for me the words of Jesus trump everything. The entire Bible is worthy. The words of Jesus are what should be pondered most, just as his example as a human on this earth is also the model to follow.
 
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I'm not an non-believing Jew, therefore such kosher requirements of the Law of Moses do not apply to me and other believers in Jesus Christ, Lord of Creation, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and End of all things... If you actually had any real knowledge and understanding of Scripture, you would know that we are save by grace, and that not of ourselves... Neither you nor nothing you spew on this site changes that one iota.

Those passages both come from the book of Leviticus. So does the condemnation of homosexuality. So one applies but the other doesn't... Guess you do take it a la carte.
 
I commend your church for beIng willing to discuss the issue. You're def gonna have your hands full as a mod. this is the kind of issue that can create hard feelings in a church family and has potential to forever change the facemof the congregation. If its for the good or bad is subject to opinion i guess. You're gonna encounter two schools of thought

1. The bible is "THE" word of God with the old testament law and writings of Paul given the same weight as Jesus' teachings. In that light its easy to connect the dots to condemning homosexuality.

2. The bible has the word of God within it (Jesus' teachings) as well as laws (old testament) that dont apply to born again Christians and writings of Paul and others who while inspired by the holy spirit were still subject to sociological and environmental forces framing their OPINIONS. (aka being human)

Cory there is ONE THING that Jesus promises to provide if u ask for it and thats WISDOM. I would pray for that and encourage all the others involved to do as well.
wow this from a guy whose 1st line of insult is to say someone is doing my 90 year old mother?
 
Nuk, I tend to ignore those whose main purpose is to insight an argument. My comments on this was strictly intended for Cory.
Jesus is accepting of all, no matter what your background is. It's what grace is all about. But on the same token, we have guidelines as well. We are saved from our sins, not to live in them. It's obvious to a bible believing Christian that Gods stance on this subject is not pleasing. Jesus simplyade a way of redemption for any who would believe on him. Trying to change that concept is a dangerous path to say the least. Cory is in a position to effect change of traditionally held beliefs. Hence my advise to forget peoples opinions and follow what the scripture teaches. Cory will be the only one standing there on the day of his judgement.
 
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Nuk, I tend to ignore those whose main purpose is to insight an argument. My comments on this was strictly intended for Cory.
Jesus is accepting of all, no matter what your background is. It's what grace is all about. But on the same token, we have guidelines as well. We are saved from our sins, not to live in them. It's obvious to a bible believing Christian that Gods stance on this subject is not pleasing. Jesus simplyade a way of redemption for any who would believe on him. Trying to change that concept is a dangerous path to say the least. Cory is in a position to effect change of traditionally held beliefs. Hence my advise to forget peoples opinions and follow what the scripture teaches. Cory will be the only one standing there on the day of his judgement.

My only position for the most part will be as peacemaker here, haha. For the main part I do have to remain neutral. Hopefully my brother isn't in my group and he tends to not be able to control his reactions at times. I've certainly been preparing myself (through prayer and study) though. I do think this issue ultimately will completely fracture the Methodist church. It may be a while but it will happen.
 
Scripture clearly condemns eating fish and wearing clothes of multiple fabrics. You dont take it a la carte do you?

And what else does it say?

Words of Jesus himself................................

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

And the scripture tells us...............................
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Cory, it will fracture many churches. I feel one day soon I will accept a calling to preach. I try to be open to peoples situation, and understanding to a point. I never condone sinful acts to the best of my ability. This topic of homosexual marriage is a delicate one. If your church is willing to integrate that, then that is their choice. My church would never accept it. I don't agree with the lifestlye, and would never marry gays. I would never mistreat them in any way. If the state says they can marry, then fine. I just dont like being told something is wrong with.me for feeling this way. But any way, good luck as meditator
 
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By the way, praying for you Cory as you take on this task in the name of the Lord. May his mighty wings shelter and protect you as you moderate this discussion in your church. God speed to you.
 
Cory, it will fracture many churches. I feel one day soon I will accept a calling to preach. I try to be open to peoples situation, and understanding to a point. I never condone sinful acts to the best of my ability. This topic of homosexual marriage is a delicate one. If your church is willing to integrate that, then that is their choice. My church would never accept it. I don't agree with the lifestlye, and would never marry gays. I would never mistreat them in any way. If the state says they can marry, then fine. I just dont like being told something is wrong with.me for feeling this way. But any way, good luck as meditator

Oh, my church is not willing to integrate it. Of that I'm sure, haha. I'm a big believer in our church keeping that right as well, which will happen. There is nothing proposed that comes close to taking that away anyway.
 
By the way, praying for you Cory as you take on this task in the name of the Lord. May his mighty wings shelter and protect you as you moderate this discussion in your church. God speed to you.

Thanks. I am really only worried about people upsetting each other. I am one who can get in a heated discussion with you and completely forget about it when it is over. No hard feelings. Most are not and I'm worried about the aftermath from that more than anything. I don't really care where the vote falls or what opinion people have. They are all entitled to that as far as I'm concerned.
 
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And what else does it say?

Words of Jesus himself................................

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

And the scripture tells us...............................
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That's not really a refutation of anything I said. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that the Bible supports the Christian ideology. That's just one big circular fallacy.
 
Cory. I will be praying for you. This is a very difficult subject for the church. I have been in various Methodist churches for many years and have served in many different capacities. (Committees, Administrative council, stewardship chair, Sunday school teacher, etc.) This issue has torn many congregations apart. (Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc.) Methodists are next. It was a heated debate 4 years ago at the last international conference. My prediction is that the Methodist Church will take same view as Episcopal and Presbyterian. This will be unfortunate in that I will leave the church because I know that is not in God's will. I don't say that lightly. I pray and meditate on scripture daily and have for many years. Unfortunately., I will have to take my family, my stewardship and my tithe to another denomination. I also know other good people feel strongly with the contrary view. Although for me, there is no compromise to God's will.
 
Cory. I will be praying for you. This is a very difficult subject for the church. I have been in various Methodist churches for many years and have served in many different capacities. (Committees, Administrative council, stewardship chair, Sunday school teacher, etc.) This issue has torn many congregations apart. (Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc.) Methodists are next. It was a heated debate 4 years ago at the last international conference. My prediction is that the Methodist Church will take same view as Episcopal and Presbyterian. This will be unfortunate in that I will leave the church because I know that is not in God's will. I don't say that lightly. I pray and meditate on scripture daily and have for many years. Unfortunately., I will have to take my family, my stewardship and my tithe to another denomination. I also know other good people feel strongly with the contrary view. Although for me, there is no compromise to God's will.
If the churches are finally coming around to it, and allowing it... how is that NOT "God's Will?" Do you think anything happens that isn't God's Will?
 
If the churches are finally coming around to it, and allowing it... how is that NOT "God's Will?" Do you think anything happens that isn't God's Will?
So you think it was God's will for Israelite to worship Baal and burn their kids as sacrifice? I guess he exiled them to Babyloyn for nothing? Read you some Jeremiah and you may find the answer to your question.
 
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