that is the subject of a thread on ACCbbs about the ACC and its quality? It also asks what is thought about the other Major conferences. I've seen that thread linked on one other site. If the survey is just sent to season ticket holders, I will never get one - I haven't lived in NC, or within 300 miles of the NC border, in this century.
Has anyone seen the survey
- Thread starter WoadBlue
- Start date
That says to me that the ACC wants to know two things: 1) how wide and deep is the old ACC contempt for the SEC as a redneck football league, and 2) how much do we dislike the Big Ten for being Yankee and historically obnoxious.
The ACC wants to know that because unless Notre Dame comes aboard as full football member and we make another move or two to increase our football TV audience rather significantly, we are going to fall so far behind the SEC and BT in money and football prestige that the ACC will no longer be able to compete in keeping members. Those that truly care about football will leave the ACC as soon as they get offers from the SEC or BT.
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Unless ESPN decides to "save" the ACC (renegotiate TV money), it won't matter what Notre Dame does at this point. There aren't any other "big stadium" schools the ACC could acquire that would Jump start an increase in the TV audience.
The arranged marriage of the ACC and the Big East has not produced the desired results for ESPN. The only good thing for old ACC schools has been the reunification with Virginia Tech.
At some point schools within the ACC will have to choose up sides, and move as a block to either the B1G or the SEC. I would hope that Carolina would choose to stay together with as many original conference mates as possible when making that decision. Which ever direction we choose we'll have to hold our nose.
So between the B1G and the SEC, which is more likely to invite UVa, State, Duke, Wake, Carolina, and Clemson? Realistically you would add Florida State and Virginia Tech into that grouping too (and perhaps Georgia Tech). Or looking another way, which of those cultures would those schools feel more comfortable with? (neither is not an option)
I will have to admit however, two things I don't like are cold weather and Yankees.
Let's hope that the folks running the University (who, for the most part are out of touch with the people of North Carolina) don't screw this up.
ESPN is contractually obligated to renegotiate if ND joins. That's why it would be a big deal if they came on board. So, it absolutely does matter.
UNC gets to choose where we go. That's not me being arrogant. Our overall brand is very important. We know the Big 10 explored inviting us the last time they expanded and the SEC is slowly building up their basketball programs because they have so much money. They would be willing to swallow our football program because of basketball brand. Clemson is without a doubt going to the SEC, though. WF and maybe moo gets left out.
Well, you should get you some new jackets, because unless the SEC starts adding a lot of Olympic sports then we're going north a lot. Also, the money coming from the education side is huge and I think almost all Big schools are AAU schools. As far as the people of NC, they are slowly turning into a northern state with all the transplants. All that being said, we are a better fit culturally for the Big 10 anyway and that's really where we belong if the ACC crumbles.
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And don't kid yourself, tradition is great and I lament the good ole days as much as anybody, but this is about $$$ and nothing else. The first determination in that aspect is adding new tv markets. Grabbing anyone from NC or VA is a new state to the equation of tv dollars for either the BIG or the SEC.
No one would have taken MD and Rutgers as prize jewels when the BIG added them, but it brought the markets of MD/DC/VA and NJ/NY respectively to the the BIG. WF and Dook will not be getting invites anywhere unless it's part of a package deal because their draw, size, alumni base, etc. don't generate the bucks and bb alone isn't going to do it for Dook. Carolina does have the power to pick, but I suspect politics within the state will screw it up and State will have to be part of whatever deal goes down. The BIG is much more Carolina oriented and the SEC is more State like (they are basically the NC version of USuCk). ND is a whole different animal. They are a national draw which is why they've had their own tv contracts forever.
No one would have taken MD and Rutgers as prize jewels when the BIG added them, but it brought the markets of MD/DC/VA and NJ/NY respectively to the the BIG. WF and Dook will not be getting invites anywhere unless it's part of a package deal because their draw, size, alumni base, etc. don't generate the bucks and bb alone isn't going to do it for Dook. Carolina does have the power to pick, but I suspect politics within the state will screw it up and State will have to be part of whatever deal goes down. The BIG is much more Carolina oriented and the SEC is more State like (they are basically the NC version of USuCk). ND is a whole different animal. They are a national draw which is why they've had their own tv contracts forever.
The only thing I would disagree with in your post is the part about politics and moo. There is no love lost in the political system for anything UNC- moo related. We've even gone so far as to troll moo. I doubt politics would require a package deal for them. The package deal would more than likely be us and duke or us and UVA. I don't think the Big would say no to either of those schools though.
I don't physically live there, so I'm not tied into it the way locals would be, but whenever I've had occasion to peruse things, it seems that there are a ton of State grads in the political power structure. As Carolina is a state school (versus a private institution like puke), they are subject to the political winds. Whatever ends up happening, I just can't imagine a scenario being allowed to take place where UNC gets a cherry deal and State gets left behind in no man's land. The same thing would apply to VA and VT. It's all about money, but the money gets controlled at schools locally within a state. The schools may one day get split into different conferences, but it would have to happen and be guaranteed to occur basically at the same time so that both are on good financial footing. The state school system is sort of a "family", even if they do have to account for the red-headed step child.
UNC has much more pull in the political structure than moo grads. It's one of the central complaints in moo conspiracy theories. Their hate for us is so strong, that their fan base would most likely want to separate from us if possible. I don't think ours would object either. What you would probably see is an agreement to play an OOC game in football and basketball yearly to preserve the rilvary.
It is true that the last non-conference member Big Fan Base football program is ND, and that the ACC adding just 1 is not enough in this market to close significantly the revenue with the SEC and Big Ten. But it is true that the Big Ten seems ready to cut all ties with EAPN/ABC. If that happens, then ND will be extremely valuable to ESPN because it will require ND to have any meaningful presence in the midwest. And the midwest is almost as football obsessed as the South.
I think ESPN has been squeezing the ACC to make clear to ND that before long, coming closer every day, ND will have no other choices but to be a full member of either ACC football or BT football. The halfway deal that ND has now is not going to last much longer. And I think that if ND comes aboard, ESPN will overpay the new ACC to get it much closer to SEC and BT money - because having ND football will be worth that much to the network.
Now, as to expansion: we all not so long assumed that leagues could not expand beyond 16 without collapsing from too much size. Now, it seems like both SEC and BT are itching to have monopolies of 20 to 24 members, and my guess is each will be happy to go to 24 if both ACC and Pac can be gutted. And either would go to 24 if it got the 5 or 6 it really wants.
Who does the BT really want? ND, UVA, UNC - and if at least 2 of that trio can't be gotten, the Pac will be happy to end the Pac by taking SC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Washington.
Who does the SEC really want? UNC and UVA, with FSU third in line.
What do I think UNC and UVA should do? I think they should make it clear to the BT that they would want as many ACC teams as possible to join with them. They should make Dook the first requirement. They should sell the BT on taking VT, Clemson, GT, FSU, and Miami to be able to battle the SEC for recruits and TV viewers from across the southeast. The BT now has 14, so that would be 22. That would leave a slot for ND and 1 other ACC team.
I think UNC and UVA should make clear to the SEC that they would want 8 ACC teams in the 24 team SEC. The other 6 would be Dook, VT, Clemson, FSU, Miami, and the SEC's choice between NCSU and GT.
Wake will get no offer. It is too small and has nothing to offer. Dook has the half of the country's best and most important rivalry. If UNC and UVA demand Dook to join with them, Dook will get into either BT or SEC.
Yet Oklahoma State just got left behind. So did Texas Tech. So will Kansas State if KU gets a BT offer.
If ESPN can persuade ND to go full member in football, it also almost certainly will require the ACC to make other moves. I think ESPN would say that Wake Forest has to be cut loose because it simply offers nothing. I think ESPN might say the same about BC.
I think ESPN will want Cincy in the ACC, because that will get some viewers in OH, easily the most important 'Big Ten state.'
I think ESPN will want Cincy in the ACC, because that will get some viewers in OH, easily the most important 'Big Ten state.'
I think you've got the tail wagging the dog here. ND can go to any network and do their own deal - they have that big of a national following. I live in MD. It's a state that has no connection to ND or Indiana, etc. Despite my hatred for them (ND, not Catholics), it has a huge ND following because it has a big Catholic population. ESPN/ABC would love to have ND, not the other way around. ND has had their deal with NBC forever and brings viewership because they have tradition, history, championships, and, yes, the national Catholic base. They are the original, national tv team. I think the power move to get ND in the ACC or any other league is to somehow get the BCS commitee to make it a requirement that playoff teams are members of an approved conference. Give them no choice or option on the subject as they can't play just other independents and expect to succeed.
On BC, again, I think you've got it reversed. It's not BC as a school that makes them attractive. It's their location and bringing the entire New England tv market into the equation. It's kind of what the problem is for WF, they bring nothing as a school draw and nothing for tv since the ACC already has Carolina and State. The puke issue is that they bring basketball, but nothing else.
Until the ACC grant of rights is over, ND can only join the ACC. That was a clause written into the contact.
There is approximately zero chance the ACC kicks anyone out. The obvious answer is the ACC will add another team.
There are no cant's in college football. It's all $$$. But your point is valid in terms of the difficulties. It may be part of the reason that the BIG and SEC haven't pushed my concept of forcing ND into a conference. They'd be way behind the numbers of getting it to happen for them.
Agree. It's more likely that a couple of blocks leave for other conferences and someone is left as odd man out. To leave, as a practical matter, they'd have to vote out the terms of the current grant of rights.
It won't matter which conference we are in re: educational monies. Carolina is doing very well (#11 in research dollars) without the B1G at this point, and there is no reason that any other conference will diminish those totals.
I would be interested to know why you feel that the Big Ten is a better cultural fit.
There is a huge myth spread by BT people that the CIC enhances research dollars for BT members. Back when Pitt was still in the BE, a Pitt fan numbers nerd crunched the research dollars of both Pitt and Penn St starting with PSU's entry into the BT. He found that the increase in research dollars for the two schools was almost exact over the period - meaning that BT membership did not help PSU at all.
Neither UNC nor Dook nor UVA would get richer in terms of research dollars from BT membership, and none of them would get poorer in research dollars from being in the SEC.
The education aspect, Olympic sports and overall feel of the university is what makes it a better fit. There's not a lot that's pure south about UNC. UNC is your typical Big 10 feel. Moo is your typical SEC university. Both schools would be great fits, except for the fact we both suck at football.
My guess is that the GT leadership is nearly desperate for UNC to feel as you do. The reason is that the only way that BT football can pull fully equal to SEC football jn terms of depth of quality is to be planted in the South with several schools. That means adding ACC schools, and not just 3 of them. If the BT wants to deliver the largest possible blow to the SEC, it will beg UNC to deliver 9 ACC teams plus Notre Dame, at least 8 of which are below the Mason-Dixon Line.
To do that the BT academic leaders must hold their noses and take VT, Clemson, Miami, and even FSU, as well as UNC, UVA, Dook, and GT. And in such a scenario, UNC might also tell the BT to take MooU as well.
All dynamics in CFB would change a great deal if that were to happen, even if ND remained independent.
I'm not sure what you consider the "educational aspect" to be, but let me comment about the "overall feel of the University"
Carolina by law, like every other school in the UNC system is made up of at least 83% of North Carolina students. The university takes on the character of it's people molded by the University's traditions. Unfortunately the PTB are doing their best to destroy not only the southern feel of Carolina, but also many long standing traditions (which is an entirely different subject which could merit it's own discussion).
But my culture as a student and now later in life, is best reflected by others in my socioeconomic grouping that hail not only from North Carolina but Virginia, South Carolina and Georgia as well. I find that I have very little cultural resemblance to natives of Ohio, Illinois or Michigan.
I find it hard to understand how you would believe that Carolina is a better "fit" for the Big Ten.
Who can the ACC add other than ND that adds even small value?
If Cincy replaces Wake, that adds value because OH is very large and produces a lot of talent (5th most in the nation behind FL, TX, CA, and GA) and Cincy is a huge state school. WVU replacing BC would add a little value because WVU is a state flagship U and WVU has a 60,000 seat stadium it can fill. But adding Cincy and WVU to go to 16 adds very little to the ACC's per team value.
What we are facing is something like a man with gangrene in his foot. He either must cut off that foot, or the gangrene will move up the leg. If the leg is not cut off, the gangrene will move into his body, and then he is dead man walking.
There are a growing number of BT and SEC people who now believe that either the gangrene is already in the ACC's body or else that the ACC has gangrene in its thigh and must act soon to cut off the leg in order to survive. Regrettably, I think those people are correct. And I do not want to be in the BT at all and could barely stomach the SEC. I am for cutting off the leg. Whether Wake is asked to leave the ACC or Wake is left out of the expanded BT and SEC, Wake very soon will not be in a 'Major' conference.
And let me again make the case why we must act: if either Clemson or FSU (the only schools we have that have any chance to put 80,000 in a stadium) leaves, ACC football tumbles down. If both leave, ACC football value plummets like the stock market in October 1929, and we will have a value about like the MWC. And neither Clemson nor FSU can afford to spend even half a decade making 40 million per year less in TV money than their in-state rival in the SEC. Both probably would jump to the SEC right now, GOR be damned.
Of course ND can keep its independent TV deal. That is not the problem ND must face if it stays independent and the SEC and BT both expand to at least 20. They will be the only 2 Major conferences left standing. It will be a Power 2, and each league will play 10 league games per year, because that is where the biggest money will be.
So how would ND keep playing a truly big time schedule in such a landscape? It couldn't. Just like the only way ND could play a big time schedule last year was to play as a full ACC member.
If the ACC is gutted, ND is going to be forced into the BT (or SEC) or else be demoted to playing a schedule equal to that of AAC teams.
So the issue is - would ND rather be in the ACC or the BT?
Moving to the Big Ten as part of an ACC contingent is Georgia Tech's only hope to stay in the "big time" of college football in the future.
You underestimate the AAU and Olympic sports. Those are things that UNC and the big 10 won't budge on. You can hope they will, but they won't.
They can't add anyone else besides ND. That doesn't mean they would kick anyone out though. That's a ridiculous thought and if you know as much as you claim, you know that. They will just add someone like USF or maybe someone closer to ND. Cincinnati is in a P5 conference now. They aren't coming.
And Clemson is SEC bound unless the SEC says no thanks. FSU would love to be there too, but I don't know if they would get an invite at this point.
Carolina is going to continue to be an AAU school whether it's a member of the ACC, Big Ten or the SEC.
BTW the SEC has 5 AAU schools already (Missouri, Texas, Texas A&M, Florida and Vanderbilt).
I know that they will continue to be one. They would also prefer to be with the most possible AAU schools. UNC is a very arrogant university. I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, it's just how they are. I usually like it in most situations. But even if none of that is true, they aren't going to cut sports or split between two conferences.
Also if you bothered to read Woad's post if 7 ACC schools plus Notre Dame (or just 8 ACC schools) went to the SEC, it would be enough schools to field a league in what ever Olympic sports the SEC does not currently offer.
Sorry I don't read 10 paragraph posts that I already know are going to do nothing but shit on UNC. I definitely won't read them when they talk about the fantasy of kicking teams out. Keep it under a couple of paragraphs and we're good.
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I believe that Carolina would prefer to stay in the ACC with other current ACC teams. Out of the current 15 members of the ACC (counting Notre Dame), there are only 4 AAU schools. How can you say that Carolina would want to be with the most possible AAU schools? Some of the arrogance comes from being academically superior to most of our peers.
Of course they would rather stay with the ACC. That's not what the conversation has been about. It's about what conference they would go to if the ACC collapsed. It's pretty well known that one of the biggest reasons West Virginia isn't in the ACC at this point is due to some ACC schools (us being one) think they aren't good enough from an education aspect. UNC wouldn't want to be in a conference that is seen as not caring about education as much. Now, that might not be true about the SEC, but that's just the rep they have.
Many feel that there has been an assault on ACC culture already with the addition of Pitt, Syracuse, Miami and Boston College and find it not to their liking. Many of those folks would not want to see Notre Dame as a full time ACC member which would further erode our identity.
If a choice has to be made, I would prefer to stay with anyone (even rednecks) who's home was south of the Mason-Dixon line as opposed to a bunch of damn Yankees.
Well, those people who don't want ND need to understand that the only way the ACC will survive past the current contract is with ND. Without ND, the ACC will crumble. There's just too much money available. Like it or not, it's reality.
If football drives the ship and it does then UNC fans better hope for the SEC. Carolina fans will travel to schools in the SEC and fill up Kenan, the BIG not so much. As fan I would rather travel to away or home games vs UGa, UT, UF etc. vs games against Purdue, Illinois or Iowa. A jump to the SEC would be a big chance for Carolina to change its football culture immensely. Also I think our recruiting would take a big hit also because kids from the south want to play in the south and not have 5-6 road trips to the frigid North. JMHO
UNC football fans don't really travel well. They certainly aren't traveling to Arkansas and Mississippi. Very doubtful they travel to Texas as well. They'll show up at home for teams like Alabama and Georgia. They would also show up for OSU and Michigan. I doubt they would have to travel that far north that much. You would see a "southern" division with teams like Virginia and GT. There would be maybe two true northern games every year.
