Listen, if you Duke boys want the "Duke Slant" you need to head on back to DI.
You AIN'T gettin it here!
You AIN'T gettin it here!
I'm hearing Bolden to dook.
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Boogie, with Duke being a "private" school there is a lot that is not reported. Jefferson's situation does not meet the eye test. He went from being out for 3-4 weeks in early December to being out for the entire season. Duke has one of the best medical rehab centers in the US. How can they be this far off? That does not compute.
Now, lets say he "was not" medically cleared. Well, that makes the situation worse. The big question is "why" is returning to come off the bench? If Bolden signs with Duke, does Jefferson still comes back to come off the bench? Bolden is not coming to Duke to come off the bench. Thus, in lieu of Jefferson moving on with his life he will return to Duke to come off the bench. Only K could convince someone to do this.....K, the leader of men..LMFAO
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Boogie and 555, you've been given leeway to express your opinions here because you've been respectful, much more than I and others received on DI. But you're beating a dead horse, we're not going to agree. We've attempted to explain the differences in Roy's philosophy and the LOM's and you refuse to accept it.
Just drop it here and resume it on your ridiculous multiple 50+ page threads on your site.
Just drop it here and resume it on your ridiculous multiple 50+ page threads on your site.
OK smartbutt, NCAA mess has taken care of that but then you knew that. At any rate, you done here, ain't puttin with with disrespect any more than Jay would on DI.
If you go back and look when Roy offered the the OAD's he always offered late, with the exception of Giles and Ingram. Roy has taken the philosophy that he you don't at least offer the OAD you don't have a chance to sign any of them. On the other hand, it is very well known that Roy is very loyal to upperclassmen and some OAD's don't like this. Roy will gladly accept some OADs, but I can assure you that he will not accept 3-5 players in a given year like Duke, Kentucky and Kansas unless he has no returning players.
Steat why are you assuming Bolden starts over Jefferson...he could, jefferson could...but both would play very good minutes....jefferson comes back to duke because he enjoys it, has a year of ball left to play, and he can get a year of grad school for free.....jefferson coming back hampers jeter/gavin/vrank/obi more than bolden if he were to come.....i bet K would have loved to have jefferson back after a month, it just didnt heal right...also he had no surgery...tough break indeed
As for the assertion that dook had no options after Amile went down, I'm sure Obi and top 15 recruit Jeter would disagree.
Might be time to lock this one up. Threads re: dook lead to an infestation of Dermites and rarely end well.
Might be time to lock this one up. Threads re: dook lead to an infestation of Dermites and rarely end well.
steat where is the 3-5 in regards to duke??? 2014-2015 was Okafor....tyus and winslow took advantage of an opportunity....the years have shown...1 sure OAD...this season will be 2 w/ giles and tatum....do you not recruit them and accept those kids if they want to come?
I agree here. Roy doesn't have success with OADs because Roy isn't going to hand the keys to the machine over to a guy that just stepped foot on campus regardless of how talented he is. And our system is not conducive to OADs showing off their talent - not only from a minutes per game standpoint but also from a shots per game standpoint. More often than not, juniors and seniors get the lion's share of the called plays in our system because Roy trusts them more than a kid who just got there.
OADs that come to Carolina aren't OAD. They're probably going to need at least 2 years to show off in our system under Roy's philosophy. So it's inaccurate to say that Roy misses on OAD kids. A more accurate way of saying it is that Roy misses on kids that want to be OAD. And I'm ok with that. Basically, what I'm saying is that if kids were forced to stay for 2 or 3 or 4 years, his strikeout rate with top 10 talent would be much, much lower. And the numbers bear that out. If you look at Roy's recruiting before the era when every player that scored 30 points in a meaningless AAU game thinks they're OAD, he was consistently one of the top recruiters. So what that tells me is that while Roy might recruit kids that want to get to the league as fast as possible, he's basically sending the message that he's not going to fast track them unless it's a perfect fit for his style and what he wants to accomplish on a team level.
There is no revolving door at Duke.
ONE just ONE year under K has there been a significant turnover due to freshmen entering and subsequently leaving for the NBA.That year resulted in a national title. The following are the facts:
Megette left by himself
Deng left by himself
Irving left by himself
Parker left by himself
Rivers left by himself
Ingram left by himself
That's not a revolving door folks. This is since 1999.
So for the past 16 years only ONCE has a Duke season resulted in multiple freshmen entering and then departing for the NBA draft. That's not a slant. That's not a spin. That is a cold, hard and to the point FACT.
ONE just ONE year under K has there been a significant turnover due to freshmen entering and subsequently leaving for the NBA.That year resulted in a national title. The following are the facts:
Megette left by himself
Deng left by himself
Irving left by himself
Parker left by himself
Rivers left by himself
Ingram left by himself
That's not a revolving door folks. This is since 1999.
So for the past 16 years only ONCE has a Duke season resulted in multiple freshmen entering and then departing for the NBA draft. That's not a slant. That's not a spin. That is a cold, hard and to the point FACT.
Roy has already spoken to this question, he has clearly stated that he would love to bring in a one & done guy or 2 but he wants a mix of guys, he does not want to load up on one & done players and have to rebuild his program from scratch every single season.
I have been clear, most UNC fans posting here have been clear, we do not want UNC to go down the same path k & duke or Ky and Kal have, they want to brand their programs as catering to the one & done player. I actually like the way Bill Self does it more, not that I love Bill Self but he does bring in a mix of talents. Multli year players with a sprinkle of one & done possible guys keeps KU in the discussion for the national title every season.
always will be that way for me in conversation....i have nothing to do with what goes on at DI in regards to posting....its okay to disagree and have banter...you can have your take on Roys philosophy, but how are you so in the loop on K's (more opinion driven and rivalry fueled)....K's new philosophy is simple....he still goes after the same top talent that he has done so since forever....todays top talent now stays in college for a shorter duration....each class 1 top OAD talent along with a mix of 2-4 year guys....3 frosh 1st rounders was a glitch in the matrix as it wasnt expected, but was a good trade off for the natty in 2015....this season 2 OAD (tatum/giles), 2 4year guys(white/delaurier) , 1 2-3year guy(jackson)....K is doing the same as Self
You right, there is no revolving door at duke ! So many got caught up in the revolving door that they had to remove it and just leave a big ole hole that allows more to get out faster.
Did some Tar Heel say K out dated kal in dedicating to the one & done phenom? Megette and Deng, really, they have been gone how many years now, even Irving was before K really started to work the one & done deal in mass. Ya gonna try to sell me Livingston and Humphreys left by themselves as well, hey yall, lebron and kobi did to, right? Come on man, you better than that...
Parker didn't leave by himself, the kid that transferred in to duke left with him, he may not have been one & done in the classic sense but he was 1 & done playing for duke. Ingram left by himself because Jeter & Thorton were a BUSTERS & Allen was scared he would fall out of the first round.
otice your list of one & dones was pretty complete but ya left off Ochafor, jones, and Winslow, oh that right, those names don't help make your point. I am thinking Giles, Tatum, Jackson, and likely Bolden will not help your case much either?
Boogie, delaurer did not commit to duke to be a 4yr guy, he will transfer before he gets stuck on a 4yr path. Jackson, maybe it takes him 2 or 3 but that is not his plan, he is thinking one & done just like Ty Jones was.
At least one each of the last three years, for a total of five in three seasons, and seven in the last six, with more likely next year. I'd venture to guess only Kentucky has more. In, out, in, out, in, out. Sounds like a revolving door to me.
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I referenced Okafor, Jones and Justice in my post as the ONE class that had multiple guys. What I will say is that I NEVER believed that Tyus and Winslow were of the caliber of player to be a legit OAD. I don't remember ANYONE thinking Duke would only have those two guys for one year. As for next year, I think Tatum and Giles fit the bill. The other guy you are referencing is Rodney Hood. No he doesn't count IMO. Let's see what happens next year like you said but no I don't think you can even begin to compare Duke and Kentucky YET.
there are no more dean smith's...and if there are, they aren't winning.
actually, forget that comparison...there are stories about dean being ruthless, but no, not to the level of the coaches out here now...some would believe it is a must in order to deal with kids today.
assistants find it difficult to work with saban, but the feeling in december and then in january trumps the grind.
just ask me, i've got stories...i have close friends that have kids that play for saban and have played for richt...how would you consider them?
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if jackson chooses then thats his choice, but i see at least 2 years....so is delaurier OAD, 2 or 3 year?...and what would his projection be if he chose unc?
Sounds like a revolving door to me too JuleZ. And if they have 2-3 more after this year, which is expected, that will be 9-10 in 7 years. You will never see that happen under Roy, thank God! With the LOM and his minions, it's all about winning games. Period.
And when asked to drop it, Dermites can't even take the hint.
Let's be honest lol isn't it all about winning games? As long as you are with in the rules, isn't it all about winning games? You play, coach and manage a program to "win games."
Roy Williams does not get paid MILLIONS of dollars, kids don't get an EXCELLENT free education at a premier university like UNC for just coming in and trying hard and getting better as players and men. It is about winning games and for the kid "IF" they are good enough, it's about being provided a forum, awesome training and facilities and resources that MAY position them to play professionally.
Roy Williams does not get paid MILLIONS of dollars, kids don't get an EXCELLENT free education at a premier university like UNC for just coming in and trying hard and getting better as players and men. It is about winning games and for the kid "IF" they are good enough, it's about being provided a forum, awesome training and facilities and resources that MAY position them to play professionally.
Shooting guard Gary Trent, Jr. and center Wendell Carter, Jr. are both Top 10 recruits in the 2017 class and have announced that they would like to play together in college and “it’s very serious”. Carter is a 6-10, 245 pound prospect who is a strong rebounder and defender and is able to score on the low block as well as make mid-range jumpers. Meanwhile Trent is a 6-4, 180 pound guard who is a talented scorer and currently listed as the #1 SG in the class according to ESPN. Wendell Carter and Gary Trent noted that the success of Jones and Okafor helped to increase their interest in potentially playing together in college and joining Duke. Ironically, Trent is a former teammate of Tyus Jones from Apple Valley High School in Apple Valley, Minnesota and currently plays with Jones’ younger brother class of 2018 guard Tre. Carter, who’s from Atlanta, has already received a scholarship offer from the Blue Devils while Trent is “in close contact with them all the time”. Both players like Duke and had great things to say about the possibility of playing for Coach K at Duke:“Me and Gary’s top right now would probably be Duke, but we’re both open to all. I don’t want to speak for him, I’m open for all colleges….It’s whatever fits me.” – Carter, Jr. “Man, I see what they did this year with a kid that I used to go to school with by the name of Tyus Jones and how he went there and he got the national championship, so that’s always on the top of your mind when you’re picking a school.” – Trent Jr.Both players are currently playing in the FIBA Americas U-16
Personally, I think Delaurer was crazy to commit duke when you already had Giles & Tatum in the fold, if Bolden joins and Jefferson being back, wow, that kids PT takes a huge whack. I really think that kid can be a really good college player, I frankly stay confused as to why dukies don't talk about him? So maybe it is my thoughts about him as a player that is a minority view but in my opinion the kid is not a guy to sit the bench for long because he should know he does not have to do that.
When the kid committed it looked to everyone like Jefferson would return this season and would have been done and Bolden was not a factor at that time.
Boogie, ya tell me "if jackson chooses then thats his choice", yeah, if Giles chooses it it wil be his choice to, it kinda is every kid's choice. But Jackson thinks he is a one & done level player, is he that or not, who knows, experts tried to convince us that labassier was the over all top pick in the next draft to, so who ever really knows. It may be harder for Jackson to be a one & done because the ball is going to have to be spread around to guys like Giles, Tatum, and Allen who will all be looking to impress NBA scouts.
Interesting question tru, does college sports exist for any other purpose other than winning games? Maybe my way of thinking is out dated but I like to think that college sports is about more than just winning a game. By its charter the NCAA was formed for reasons more important than winning a game.
On the other hand I do realize for many, heck maybe even most fans it is about no more than winning more than anyone else. IN pro sports yes, winning is not the most important thing, it is the ONLY thing as a great coach once said. But I want to believe that college sports is not about the same thing the pro game is about. I like to think it is more important that a kid just out of high school is able to grow in to a fine young man and is able to learn life lessons from sports. I just do not think that can be done in 2 semesters, I honestly feel the one & done thing reflects a in general decay of society to an extent in its motivation being ALL ABOUT GREED. The kids greed in wanting to be paid now, coaches greed in winning more games so they get larger and larger contracts, apperal companies greed, player familys greed of wanting money slide to them, agents greed, street handlers greed, networks, ESPN, even the schools professors looking for larger paydays available because of the flow of NCAA sports dollars.
These were not the values that Dean Smith represented and THE reason Dean left when he did. Maybe the world has changed and left me behind but if it has it is unfortunate.
DS, that is what it should be about. I have this argument with people that want to pay college athletes. It should be about educating kids while they play the sport of their choice. The 11 kids on most college rosters that will never see a day in the NBA get their school paid for in exchange for giving 4 of the best years of their lives. There is too much focus on the money. The NBA does not want 18 year olds, so the OAD players are now the face of college basketball. I will take the Quinn Cook, Nolan Smiths, Brice Johnson, and Paiges of the world over 12 month phenonmenons, but Im probably in the minority.
It is a tough question DSOUTH and I feel you. I do WISH it was the way you referenced. I would LOVE to go back to the days that players as talented as Grant Hill, Leattner, Rasheed Wallace and Stackhouse played multiple years and wouldn't think of leaving until atleast junior year. However, as a realist? Those days for BIG TIME PROGRAMS are long gone. There is TOO MUCH MONEY involved. I've NEVER seen anything where when large money is involved an institution is able to hold on to any type of innocence and values. Look no further than the Ivy League bball programs as they begin to inch closer and closer into the fray. The IVY leagues have always been about what you described as representing college athletics in its purest form but now you're starting to see some of them use creative ways to be more competitive. Schools like Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky? That fill up major arenas? That students March and or protest to get coaches fired if they aren't winning? It's gone IMO bro it's gone. You HAVE to win! Your livelihood as a coach depends on it.
Could not have said it better myself. This is who K is and nothing more. And anyone that thinks differently has a real low IQ.
I figure since this is a UNC vs Duke feud I just as well throw a UK fan into the mix
I call BS on both UNC and Duke's comments on the OAD.
First, for the Duke fans posting. Duke "Probably" had a OAD before UK. I know that it has become common under Calipari, but to be honest, before Calipari came to UK we weren't lighting up the world on top recruits. I would think that Duke had more OAD players than UK before Calipari. Please feel free to let me know whether I'm right or wrong.
I would also remind you that K is doing what every other coach is doing now, trying to keep up with the way recruiting is done. Try to get the best of the best until the NBA actually change their rules and just let kids go pro straight out of High School.
So please quit trying to say Duke's recruiting method or Coach K's recruiting method is somehow honorable while degrading UK's. It's the same. We're both going for the best of the best and are successful.
Now for the UNC fans saying that Roy and UNC doesn't recruit the way UK and Duke does.
I'm not going to say that any of are lying. But I would like for each one of you to google Roy Williams' interview before the NCAA tournament where he specifically says that he recruits the same players as Duke and UK but hasn't had success. (I think it was Roy, Cal, and Boheim) that were being interviewed. He actually made the comment that the NCAA investigation hasn't made it easier.
Now, just my opinion, but I would take your coaches quotes over your opinions. Wouldn't that be fair to say? Or am I out of line and your coach is lying? Because I don't see any reason why your coach would say that if it wasn't true. I also believe he was directly speaking to recruits during the interview.
So to try and tell me that anyone's coach or program doesn't want the best of the best and would rather fill their team with 4 year players is ridiculous. And to think that a freshman player like Cousins, Davis, Towns, Wall, MKG, Knight, etc... Would set on the bench for a player that has seniority is not just ludacris but can cost a coach their job.
I'm sure none of those players coming in as freshman would start for Duke or UNC. And I can name many more.
The more people want to say that their team wouldn't start freshman even though the freshman their complaining about is more talented than their returning players, the less players of their quality want look at that school.
Keep complaining. I'll take them
I call BS on both UNC and Duke's comments on the OAD.
First, for the Duke fans posting. Duke "Probably" had a OAD before UK. I know that it has become common under Calipari, but to be honest, before Calipari came to UK we weren't lighting up the world on top recruits. I would think that Duke had more OAD players than UK before Calipari. Please feel free to let me know whether I'm right or wrong.
I would also remind you that K is doing what every other coach is doing now, trying to keep up with the way recruiting is done. Try to get the best of the best until the NBA actually change their rules and just let kids go pro straight out of High School.
So please quit trying to say Duke's recruiting method or Coach K's recruiting method is somehow honorable while degrading UK's. It's the same. We're both going for the best of the best and are successful.
Now for the UNC fans saying that Roy and UNC doesn't recruit the way UK and Duke does.
I'm not going to say that any of are lying. But I would like for each one of you to google Roy Williams' interview before the NCAA tournament where he specifically says that he recruits the same players as Duke and UK but hasn't had success. (I think it was Roy, Cal, and Boheim) that were being interviewed. He actually made the comment that the NCAA investigation hasn't made it easier.
Now, just my opinion, but I would take your coaches quotes over your opinions. Wouldn't that be fair to say? Or am I out of line and your coach is lying? Because I don't see any reason why your coach would say that if it wasn't true. I also believe he was directly speaking to recruits during the interview.
So to try and tell me that anyone's coach or program doesn't want the best of the best and would rather fill their team with 4 year players is ridiculous. And to think that a freshman player like Cousins, Davis, Towns, Wall, MKG, Knight, etc... Would set on the bench for a player that has seniority is not just ludacris but can cost a coach their job.
I'm sure none of those players coming in as freshman would start for Duke or UNC. And I can name many more.
The more people want to say that their team wouldn't start freshman even though the freshman their complaining about is more talented than their returning players, the less players of their quality want look at that school.
Keep complaining. I'll take them
J hammock I made a post where I listed ALL Duke OAD going back before CAL at Kentucky. It started with Cory Megette in 99. Then Deng in 04. And my contention is this, the game has changed not K. He recruited and got a commitment from Sean Livingston who skipped school and went to NBA. He recruited Kobe. He following are other players who probably only play one year in today's game:
Boozer
Brand
Jay Williams
Harrison Barnes could be viewed as OAD during his recruitment.
Team USA has simply helped K get players he was ALWAYS trying to get but was losing out. Capel has helped as well
Boozer
Brand
Jay Williams
Harrison Barnes could be viewed as OAD during his recruitment.
Team USA has simply helped K get players he was ALWAYS trying to get but was losing out. Capel has helped as well
Great post DSouthr. I have just a slightly different, but related derivative take. I think the OAD and decay in society is all about instant gratification, as you said, which is all about love of self, or EGO. And I think EGO - LOVE OF SELF is at the root of almost all evil in our society, and (less important, but) including college basketball. Too often the kids and the coaches are out for instantly getting what seems best to serve their personal interests and ego, vs. the opposite of EGO, which is SACRIFICE.
Sacrifice and serving others is a trite and ridiculed term in today's society, reserved for "losers, chumps, old fashioned, unenlightened people", and is also attacked because sacrifice vs. love of self is at the heart of biblical teachng, Christ's teaching. Certainly at odds with our secular self centered, instant self gratification society today.
I don't see what turns it around, in society or college basketball, but that is what I think has changed over the years. And I also think an ego (love of self) vs. modesty and sacrifice for others is a useful way for how I see K and Duke's program vs. Dean / Roy and UNC.
I figure since this is a UNC vs Duke feud I just as well throw a UK fan into the mix
I call BS on both UNC and Duke's comments on the OAD.. And to think that a freshman player like Cousins, Davis, Towns, Wall, MKG, Knight, etc... Would set on the bench for a player that has seniority is not just ludacris but can cost a coach their job.
I'm sure none of those players coming in as freshman would start for Duke or UNC. And I can name many more.
The more people want to say that their team wouldn't start freshman even though the freshman their complaining about is more talented than their returning players, the less players of their quality want look at that school.
Keep complaining. I'll take them
Jawad started, Marvin didn't. "ludacris"??
Do you rival fans even bother to read what was already posted before you post your nonsense? It certainly doesn't seem so. It's impossible to state our position in more simplistic terms. You don't agree. Fine. But your BS is getting real old. We would have been banned from your boards well before now if we had continued to belabor a moot point that contradicted the prevailing opinion of your fans.
So drop it or GTFOH!
So drop it or GTFOH!
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