Immigration

[ticket2ride04]

No I don't work in the temp industry. I work for a company that uses a lot of temps. If you're trying to get me to argue that Hispanics generally work harder, I'm not going to debate that. They do. What I'm saying is it's become accepted for non-illegal Hispanics to be like "eh, I don't want to do that job. An illegal will do it." If illegal immigration is curtailed, this sentiment will go away, IMO.

And if it doesn't, business owners will have to respond with wage increases.

Genie is out of the bottle. You aren't going to get native born Americans to do hard work en masse. We are too coddled. There is a sea of hungry people beyond our borders chomping at the bit to do better quality work at far lower wages. This is basic Econ.

Think we can remove those workers and manipulate the market? Lol. No. People want the lowest price no matter what. Look no further than Wal-Mart.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Genie is out of the bottle. You aren't going to get native born Americans to do hard work en masse. We are too coddled. There is a sea of hungry people beyond our borders chomping at the bit to do better quality work at far lower wages. This is basic Econ.

Think we can remove those workers and manipulate the market? Lol. No. People want the lowest price no matter what. Look no further than Wal-Mart.

I agree with this. Now if only we could get that "sea of hungry people chomping at the bit to work" to pay some damn taxes on that income, we'd be in a much better place.

 

[Heels Noir]

Now if only we could get that "sea of hungry people chomping at the bit to work" to pay some damn taxes on that income, we'd be in a much better place.

Tell it to their employers.

 

[ticket2ride04]

I agree with this. Now if only we could get that "sea of hungry people chomping at the bit to work" to pay some damn taxes on that income, we'd be in a much better place.

I agree with you. Heels Noir touches on some of the problem below. Another issue is the time it takes to do anything in this country. Build a road, get a permit, or get green card/naturalized. My family has a medium sized tobacco farm in NC, I have several friends who own businesses that heavily utilize manual laborers, and I happen to work in the construction industry. Going back to the early Obama years, I have witnessed an increase of the scarcity of migrant workers relative to before that time. There aren't as many around. The reasons why can be debated, but what cannot is their shortage. We need them.

Tell it to their employers.

A consumption tax would solve a lot of problems, including this one.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

I agree with you. Heels Noir touches on some of the problem below. Another issue is the time it takes to do anything in this country. Build a road, get a permit, or get green card/naturalized. My family has a medium sized tobacco farm in NC, I have several friends who own businesses that heavily utilize manual laborers, and I happen to work in the construction industry. Going back to the early Obama years, I have witnessed an increase of the scarcity of migrant workers relative to before that time. There aren't as many around. The reasons why can be debated, but what cannot is their shortage. We need them.


A consumption tax would solve a lot of problems, including this one.

I too can verify that there is definitely a shortage in migrant worker supply from 10 years ago. And yet.... the temp company we use still has plenty of legal employees of all colors willing to work. Imagine that.

 

[ticket2ride04]

I too can verify that there is definitely a shortage in migrant worker supply from 10 years ago. And yet.... the temp company we use still has plenty of legal employees of all colors willing to work. Imagine that.

That isn't true. At least, there aren't enough to handle the jobs like construction, farming, etc.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

That isn't true. At least, there aren't enough to handle the jobs like construction, farming, etc.

I'm not sure how either of us can quantify our position other than with more anecdotes

 

[ticket2ride04]

I'm not sure how either of us can quantify our position other than with more anecdotes

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-growing-labor-shortage-1490829265

From the article:

President Trump approved the Keystone XL pipeline on Friday, and good for him, but will there be enough workers to build it? That’s a serious question. Many American employers, especially in construction and agriculture, are facing labor shortages that would be exacerbated by restrictionist immigration policies.


Demographic trends coupled with a skills mismatch have resulted in a frustrating economic paradox: Millions of workers are underemployed even as millions of jobs go unfilled. The U.S. workforce is also graying, presenting a challenge for industries that entail manual labor.


Construction is ground zero in the worker shortage. Many hard-hats who lost their jobs during the recession left the labor force. Some found high-paying work in fossil fuels during the fracking boom and then migrated to renewables when oil prices tumbled. While construction has rebounded, many employed in the industry a decade ago are no longer there.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are nearly 150,000 unfilled construction jobs across the country, nearly double the number five years ago. The shortage is particularly acute in metro areas like Miami, Dallas and Denver, and the worker shortage is delaying projects and raising costs.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

^ Thank you! Very interesting. I still think it's an issue America has created for itself. Finding work wasn't an issue before large agriculture plants (many in N.C.) starting actively recruiting illegals to come work for them. And also you've got a young populace now who has no idea what it means to work hard.

 

[ticket2ride04]

^ Thank you! Very interesting. I still think it's an issue America has created for itself. Finding work wasn't an issue before large agriculture plants (many in N.C.) starting actively recruiting illegals to come work for them. And also you've got a young populace now who has no idea what it means to work hard.

This country was built first on slave labor, then on cheap immigrant labor from other countries like Ireland, Germany, Italy, etc. Hispanics are the most recent iteration of that trend. The same argument isolationists are making now have been literally made for 100s of years. People went insane when gas went from $1 to $4 overnight. Imagine the ramifications of taking out 800k cheap laborers and replacing them with higher waged yuppies who demand more and produce less.

 

[UNC71-00]

Tell it to their employers.

Here's how it works in construction- you tell me the solution

Noir Painting Company gets a contract for a $100,000 paint job. Noir Painting doesn't actually have any employees who paint for 2 reasons- the cost of employment taxes and the cost of worker's compensation insurance..

Noir Painting contracts with Garcia Painting to provide all labor for job (Noir supplies paint, brushes, maybe even transportation, etc.) Garcia Painting is a legit company with a FEIN and has an insurance certificate proving that Garcia carries worker's compensation insurance. At the end of the year, Noir will send Garcia a 1099.

Garcia Painting has about 20 employees, of which about 5 are legal. Those 5 get a paycheck and payroll taxes are paid. The other 15 are given straight cash out of Mr. Garcia's pocket (which is after tax cash).

So when the IRS shows up at Noir's door, Noir gives them the 1099 showing that Garcia provided the labor. The IRS then goes to Garcia, who gives them payroll records of 5 employees and says thats all he has.

Now what?

One thing that most people also miss is that the cost of Worker's Compensation insurance is pretty steep, especially for employees performing manual labor. Want to guess which employee doesn't ever file a WC claim? Yep, that's right, the one who is here illegally. And when I say it's steep, I mean steep for a company that doesn't have any claims. It is astronomical if your company has had claims. For instance, most long haul trucking companies pay a premium of about 16-18% of salary. However if you sub your labor out, then you don't pay anything.

I would love to hear how you think this can be fixed.

 

[bleeduncblue]

I'm not sure what you're arguing about. The article you linked acknowledges the fact that the Statue of Liberty is "a symbol of immigration."

This isn't 1886, and although it was a gift from France which initially represented entirely different principles, today and for many decades leading up to today the Statue of Liberty has been an icon for immigration to America. To deny this is purely asinine.

due to a poem that was added .... it is and never was intended to welcome any and all immigrants to the States -- it was a symbol of freedom and still is.

 

[Heels Noir]

The other 15 are given straight cash out of Mr. Garcia's pocket (which is after tax cash).

I would love to hear how you think this can be fixed.

It's a heck of a conundrum for sure, but you cannot put the blame on the workers. The insurance companies with excessively high premiums play a part, but at the end of the day it is the employer who willingly dupes the system. I realize it's about corporate survival; hence, the conundrum.

Here's my question to you: once you get rid of all of the illegals, how does Noir and Garcia's businesses remain afloat in the first place?

 

[Heels Noir]

due to a poem that was added .... it is and never was intended to welcome any and all immigrants to the States -- it was a symbol of freedom and still is.

Liberty Enlightening the World may have originally stood for America as a democracy for other nations to emulate, but a lot has changed in over 130 years. Icons regularly assume new and different meanings as time goes on.

Not all things turn out as they were initially intended to be. Take this thread for example. I began with a slightly sarcastic jab at those who actually believe closing our borders for an entire decade would be a successful enterprise. Now, on page 2, I find myself attempting to explain the very obvious to someone who I believe can't be foolish enough to believe what he is posting but instead simply enjoys chasing his tail in circles for the mere sake of argument. Am I close?

 

[UNC71-00]

It's a heck of a conundrum for sure, but you cannot put the blame on the workers. The insurance companies with excessively high premiums play a part, but at the end of the day it is the employer who willingly dupes the system. I realize it's about corporate survival; hence, the conundrum.

Here's my question to you: once you get rid of all of the illegals, how does Noir and Garcia's businesses remain afloat in the first place?

You will never get rid of the illegals as long as there is a gap to fill.

The problem lies with the tax system and workers compensation insurance system. Both of these are systems run by lawyers.

The only answer is tort reform, but since the same people who benefit from unlimited torts write the laws, we are screwed.

 

[ticket2ride04]

You will never get rid of the illegals as long as there is a gap to fill.

The problem lies with the tax system and workers compensation insurance system. Both of these are systems run by lawyers.

The only answer is tort reform, but since the same people who benefit from unlimited torts write the laws, we are screwed.

Tort reform? Really?

 

[UNC71-00]

Tort reform? Really?

What's your problem with tort reform? Although I admittedly used tort reform loosely and generally as it doesn't quite apply to WC insurance.

 

[ticket2ride04]

What's your problem with tort reform? Although I admittedly used tort reform loosely and generally as it doesn't quite apply to WC insurance.

Mostly my problem with tort reform is it doesn't really solve any issues and is essentially unconstitutional. Other than that, not much I suppose.

Why would you even bring up tort reform in this context?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

You will never get rid of the illegals as long as there is a gap to fill.

The problem lies with the tax system and workers compensation insurance system. Both of these are systems run by lawyers.

The only answer is tort reform, but since the same people who benefit from unlimited torts write the laws, we are screwed.

Lawyers definitely are the leeches that seem to manage to get their grubby paws on a piece of every pie.

 

[UNC71-00]

Mostly my problem with tort reform is it doesn't really solve any issues and is essentially unconstitutional. Other than that, not much I suppose.

Why would you even bring up tort reform in this context?

Tort reform is not, as I see it, unconstitutional and I think it solves many issues.

And as I said, I brought it up in a very general context. We can focus on WC insurance reform if you prefer.

 

[ticket2ride04]

Tort reform is not, as I see it, unconstitutional and I think it solves many issues.

And as I said, I brought it up in a very general context. We can focus on WC insurance reform if you prefer.

Please start here and read a little more on it. Tort reform does far more damage than good.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevec...to-declare-victory-and-withdraw/#5f4026d463ea

Fwiw, I used to be a major proponent of tort reform myself. I was converted.