Is it time to consider starting Trimble over Cadeau

[gobblercalls]

Folks saying that Seth can not play the point strikes me as funny, I would ask how you know that considering that you can count the number of minutes he has actually been in as our PG on 1 hand since he has been on our team? I actually believe that before you say a kid can't play a position that maybe you would want a kid to have the chance to before you say he can't.

Maybe the better question is why has he not been given the chance and of course the answer to that is easy, Caleb/RJ, Cadeau/RJ. Wilcher is not a Tar Heel why, because he wanted a shot at playing the point and the Cadeau/RJ road block was not going to allow that. Recall that Hubert had to tap dance with RJ just to get RJ to accept Cadeau coming in early, no way you didn't know that RJ was going to be our PG any time Cadeau was not in the game. If the 3rd guy in line at the point wants to play at all he has to learn a different position, exactly what Seth has done, exactly what Wilcher did not seem interested in doing.

There are all types of PGs, anything from Magic Johnson at what 6'9" to Mugsey Boges who has a summer place in Munchkin land. To say that Seth could not be a Cadeau like PG well duh, no they are very different types of players so of course they are not going to play it the same way.

I don't think it's fair to say that Seth hasn't been given a chance to play PG. Those opportunities may be few and far between in game situations, but we have no way of knowing the opportunities he's had in practice. Now I'm not saying he can or he can't, but I feel certain that he's been given an opportunity. Also, I don't think UNC basketball thrives with good point guards, we seem to only thrive when we have great ones. If Seth would/could be a good pg, is that what we want?

 

[DSouthr]

I don't think it's fair to say that Seth hasn't been given a chance to play PG. Those opportunities may be few and far between in game situations, but we have no way of knowing the opportunities he's had in practice. Now I'm not saying he can or he can't, but I feel certain that he's been given an opportunity. Also, I don't think UNC basketball thrives with good point guards, we seem to only thrive when we have great ones. If Seth would/could be a good pg, is that what we want?

For example, believe it was in his post game following the Pitt game Hubert shared that only in the few days leading up to that game had he tried using Jalen at the 4 in practice with Bacot, I have been talking about do that for how long? LOL

Sure, Hubert may have tinkered with Seth at the point in practice but it was not a serious thing, had it been you would have seen it in games. How much would you expect to see it in games with RJ and Caleb as our starting back court? Roy gave leaky a fair shot at playing the point, actually spoke often as to how he liked bringing in a long PG in Leaky, similar words about Caleb. They had a shot, they played the position for more than 5mins of the season. Roy gave Henson the shot to play the wing, remember that, it just didn't work but he got the shot at it, Seth has not had that, you know that because you have watched all or most of the last 2 seasons. You tell me how many times you have seen Seth bring the ball up court and we settle in to half court, it was always Caleb or RJ doing that before it was RJ & Cadeau doing it, not Seth.

Practice time is so restricted now days, you do not waste practice time by practicing guys at positions that you have no intention of playing them at. Have to as well realize that Seth was a freshman last season and what have we all learned with Cadeau, that freshmen have a LOT to learn and the PG spot is the hardest position to learn in the college game because so much of what a kid can get away with at the high school level he is no longer able to at the college level. So no, Seth has not been given that time to work thru and learn as a PG, had he you would have seen him at the point in games, isn't that true?

 

[DSouthr]

Trying to recall the coach that famously said that he became a better coach the day a certain player joined his team? Was it Wooden talking about Alcindor maybe? LOL PGs as the extension of the coach on the floor is the same way, great players around a PG makes that PG a heck of a lot better! LOL

So does a team thrive because they have a great PG or it is the quality of that PGs surrounding cast that frames him as a great PG? Truth is it is some of both but fans look strictly at the teams success or failures to determine it that PG was great or not. Fans for example will NEVER look at a pass that ends up either going out of bounds as a TO or a steal and blame anyone but the PG for a bad pass but it may not have been the PGs fault, maybe the guy he was passing the ball to cut differently than he expected, maybe different from what he was supposed to? The converse is also true BTW.

If you look for example, great PG are to me great PGs no matter what level they play. Now I care about how a kid plays for UNC and not so much how he does in the NBA but if we are talking great, great plays no matter the level. Joel Berry, Marcus Paige are just 2 examples of of PGs that played great for us but they were not great PGs, they were very good PGs at the college level that barely got a cup of coffee at the next level. So how many great PGs has UNC had, Phil was, played great until he got hurt in the pros but other than he, Lawson had a few years until the buffet line got him, Jet had some good NBA years.

My point is UNC has had a lot of really good college PGs, very few great ones that went on to the next level and showed they were great. What we have been able to enjoy is PGs that come in and grow over the years to becoming great players for UNC and the college game. Joel Berry didn't start a single game as a freshman, Marcus struggled bad first half of his freshman season, Kendal didn't start till half way thru his frosh season. WE have been able to allow our talented freshmen PGs to grow in to the position and not expect them to be great day 1 on campus. The very same is true right now with Cadeau. That I can recall we have only had 2 one & done PGs, Cole & Coby and both are still cashing NBA checks today, neither left UNC with natty rings...

 

[ACokeForRoy]

Don't be silly. However, EC could make his life much easier if he finds confidence in his scoring. Jumpers and driving to the rack when he has a lane. He's very hesitant with his scoring. They are starting to play off of him.

 

[DSouthr]

Don't be silly. However, EC could make his life much easier if he finds confidence in his scoring. Jumpers and driving to the rack when he has a lane. He's very hesitant with his scoring. They are starting to play off of him.

Let them play off him, this is not a Leaky Black situation, the counters to teams doing that should be obvious to any coach. Cadeau's very confident as a scorer, he is not all that confident in his jump shooting, I doubt that has ever been a real focus for him, jump shooting. Don't look for that to change much this season, it will take an off season of working hard on that aspect for it to get better, just as happened with Seth after this past off season. Joel Berry, same thing, he himself spoke about how he put in big time work in his first off season with us to get his shooting stroke down solid. His jump shot has to be re-tooled bottom up and that just does not happen in season.

 

[dtodd4475]

RJ going pro, nothing left to prove in college. If Colby White is making a living in the league, RJ will surely get a shot.

EC and Ian Jackson will be the show next year.

RJ has slim to no NBA options, he does have overseas pro ball options The Coby comp has zero merit, or idea on what is needed as a NBA player compared to college.

 

[dtodd4475]

Folks saying that Seth can not play the point strikes me as funny, I would ask how you know that considering that you can count the number of minutes he has actually been in as our PG on 1 hand since he has been on our team? I actually believe that before you say a kid can't play a position that maybe you would want a kid to have the chance to before you say he can't.

Maybe the better question is why has he not been given the chance and of course the answer to that is easy, Caleb/RJ, Cadeau/RJ. Wilcher is not a Tar Heel why, because he wanted a shot at playing the point and the Cadeau/RJ road block was not going to allow that. Recall that Hubert had to tap dance with RJ just to get RJ to accept Cadeau coming in early, no way you didn't know that RJ was going to be our PG any time Cadeau was not in the game. If the 3rd guy in line at the point wants to play at all he has to learn a different position, exactly what Seth has done, exactly what Wilcher did not seem interested in doing.

There are all types of PGs, anything from Magic Johnson at what 6'9" to Mugsey Boges who has a summer place in Munchkin land. To say that Seth could not be a Cadeau like PG well duh, no they are very different types of players so of course they are not going to play it the same way.

You see something I don't. That doesn't mean it's not there, I just don't see it. It's not the size or different styles of a point man, you are 100% that there are different styles that work. I just do not see any in Seth's game as a feature point.

I do not see any in Trimble, he is a slasher, athlete, dee, all good qualities. Not a creater, draw/dish guy, not a control the set lead a guy to his spot half court control guy, not a great handle, sub par, but improving, shooter. Average free throw guy not a late close game ball in hand guy at all.

Love the role he is being implemented in.

 

[gauchoheel]

If RJ stays at the same level he’s been playing, I see him leaving to go get paid to play somewhere. Don’t know where, but plenty of places to make a decent living.

He's getting paid plenty to play at UNC. Can he get more elsewhere? Bacot couldn't. Not a lot of higher paying gigs than blue blood college ball except the NBA.

 

[gauchoheel]

RJ going pro, nothing left to prove in college. If Colby White is making a living in the league, RJ will surely get a shot.

EC and Ian Jackson will be the show next year.

Coby is 5 inches taller than RJ and considerably more athletic. The two aren't even comparable.

Folks RJ is making big bucks this year and as one of the faves of college basketball stands to see a huge pay day next year in college. Due to his size/defense he'll likely be back; hopefully it's at UNC and not another school.

 

[Mrs.Jeans15]

Hell no.

Dont expose Trimble.

Let him continue to be comfortable.

 

[DSouthr]

You see something I don't. That doesn't mean it's not there, I just don't see it. It's not the size or different styles of a point man, you are 100% that there are different styles that work. I just do not see any in Seth's game as a feature point.

I do not see any in Trimble, he is a slasher, athlete, dee, all good qualities. Not a creater, draw/dish guy, not a control the set lead a guy to his spot half court control guy, not a great handle, sub par, but improving, shooter. Average free throw guy not a late close game ball in hand guy at all.

Love the role he is being implemented in.

The raw skills are there for Seth to play the point (my opinion), he has the quickness, he has the speed. What Seth has not learned is that so much of what he could get away with in high school does not work in college as a PG, same thing Cadeau is going thru right now. The only way to really learn that is playing thru it, again as Cadeau is having to do now. There is skill work that Seth would have needed to work on, specifically his ball handling, his dribble gets to high and needs to come down. I fear his now having spent the time he has at UNC working to fit other positions has cost him valuable time that could have been used to prep him as a point, it may be to late now. But he has the pass first mindset I love in a PG, he does not dominate the ball which again I love and he is by far our best back court defender, typically picks up the most dangerous scorer in the other teams back court.

I feel like Seth has already shown an amazing quality to take what may be seen as a weakness and vastly improve it, that is pretty rare. It may help to understand what I look for in a PG. I look for front line speed with the ball, I see plenty of that, look for quickness and he has that for sure, you don't guard other Pgs and not have good quickness. Ball handles, as I have shared, the area that he needs improvement, pass first mindset looking to get his team mates games rolling which at times looks like a hesitate shooter because shooting is not his first thought, and is a lock down defender for the position on the other end. Looking for a guy that pushes the pace at every op, we have not got to see much of that from the kid. As for scoring, does not need to be a huge scorer as long as we have shooters at the 2 and 3, prefer him to be a timely scorer, take it when it is there. Of those things I look for in a PG, Seth checks all the boxes other than ball handles and passing decisions, teachable things.

I look more to what a kid may be than what he is, hope that makes sense to you.

 

[gary-7]

Yes I know the statement “if it is not broken don’t change it” but at this time it is something that the coaches must think about and consider.

Like everybody else I like how Trimble this season is day and night different from last year when he was scared to even considering shooting and the big time spark he gives the team off the bench when he and Washington come in and more importantly how he plays in your face tough defense without picking up silly unnecessary fouls. He has also added long range to his offensive game. His one year of playing at Carolina also really shows how he has grown.

Trimble does NOT look as much as Cadeau does for an assist but he does several times a game attack the rim. Against teams with a big backcourts like Pittsburgh and Duke I personally would like him playing to offset the height difference.

Cadeau is still learning the Carolina offense and at times plays like a green freshman but every game he looks better and better. He reminds me somewhat of Jimmy Black who hardly ever looked for his own shot and was more concerned with getting the ball to Worthy, Perkins, Doherty and Jordan in scoring positions.

Like Black, Cadeau has four players in Bacot, Ingram, Davis and Ryan who can carry the scoring load so that he does not need to score to help the team win but if Cadeau could look to score like Trimble does the team could go from great to elite.

Sooner or later opponents will begin to lay off him like they did to Black and Nance last season making life tough on Bacot again who will be double teamed.

I have seen enough of Cadeau to know there is not a defensive guard in the ACC that can hold him or stop him from going to the hole when he decides to take the rock strongly to the basket but he just does not do it enough. In my humble opinion he could be like another Lawson and that is saying a lot.

Cadeau’s outside shooting will eventually come around as will his free throwing shooting at a higher percentage which will make him a superstar in the near future but right now both leave a lot to be desired.

Carolina seems more fluent when Cadeau is running the team freeing up Davis for his shot but all of these careless silly fouls is really hurting his growth and the team when he spends more time on the bench than in running the team.

Let the debate begin because as I have clearly listed how both players bring a ton of talent to the table and contribute to the team’s recent success.

I look forward to see how others feel about this discussion and why…

110% no. In fact, we need to keep Cadeau on the court considerably MORE than he has been recently if we're to reach our goals. And BTW, it's not always foul trouble --- Hubert has had a frustrating habit of pulling him at the under-16, which just kills our rhythm. And I've said it before, it has not been good for EC's confidence. Players like that need to be given the damn keys and a license to drive the machine, not just a learner's permit.

I posted before the season that if RJ moves off the ball beside Cadeau, he'll be All-ACC. Welp, we're seeing it unfold. Relieved of the "heavy lifting", RJ is an absolute menace. Why would we want to reburden him? Moreover, we only play full-on Carolina basketball with EC at the helm.

Moving RJ back to starting PG doesn't help anybody but our opponents. Pitt set the defensive template --- RJ will get the crap beat out of him and his efficiency will drop, and we'll fall back to being a mostly half-court team. There is nothing good about any of that.

Look, I love Seth's development and he has meshed into his perfect role, but Cadeau is the difference between us being just an NCAA team or still playing in April. And as for that latter preferred outcome, unless we get REAL lucky, only 20 minutes of EC will NOT get us there.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

Defenses Fear Cadeau whether it’s the drive or the elite Pass not Sure Seth does that

 

[dtodd4475]

The raw skills are there for Seth to play the point (my opinion), he has the quickness, he has the speed. What Seth has not learned is that so much of what he could get away with in high school does not work in college as a PG, same thing Cadeau is going thru right now. The only way to really learn that is playing thru it, again as Cadeau is having to do now. There is skill work that Seth would have needed to work on, specifically his ball handling, his dribble gets to high and needs to come down. I fear his now having spent the time he has at UNC working to fit other positions has cost him valuable time that could have been used to prep him as a point, it may be to late now. But he has the pass first mindset I love in a PG, he does not dominate the ball which again I love and he is by far our best back court defender, typically picks up the most dangerous scorer in the other teams back court.

I feel like Seth has already shown an amazing quality to take what may be seen as a weakness and vastly improve it, that is pretty rare. It may help to understand what I look for in a PG. I look for front line speed with the ball, I see plenty of that, look for quickness and he has that for sure, you don't guard other Pgs and not have good quickness. Ball handles, as I have shared, the area that he needs improvement, pass first mindset looking to get his team mates games rolling which at times looks like a hesitate shooter because shooting is not his first thought, and is a lock down defender for the position on the other end. Looking for a guy that pushes the pace at every op, we have not got to see much of that from the kid. As for scoring, does not need to be a huge scorer as long as we have shooters at the 2 and 3, prefer him to be a timely scorer, take it when it is there. Of those things I look for in a PG, Seth checks all the boxes other than ball handles and passing decisions, teachable things.

I look more to what a kid may be than what he is, hope that makes sense to you.

It does, makes perfect sense. I just do not see some of those attributes other then the physical makeup with his quickness, speed, length, etc. Defensively, yes sir I'm sold he can guard anywhere on the perimeter, including point. Physically he can fit the mold, like Dex could, just not a natural game for either of them to run the offense.

I do not think he has the natural feel for being a lead guard, with the natural vision and creativity for others. Not because he is seeking his shot, just because it is a skill set that is not natural for him, and not one you are taught. I do agree that his scoring ability up top would not make up for that either, as the not prototypical point guard general types often do with scoring fire power.

I do not think it is the proverbial square peg being tried to fit in the round hole, but I do think it is a forced fit that would result in a clunky overall product for the entire offense.

 

[DSouthr]

It does, makes perfect sense. I just do not see some of those attributes other then the physical makeup with his quickness, speed, length, etc. Defensively, yes sir I'm sold he can guard anywhere on the perimeter, including point. Physically he can fit the mold, like Dex could, just not a natural game for either of them to run the offense.

I do not think he has the natural feel for being a lead guard, with the natural vision and creativity for others. Not because he is seeking his shot, just because it is a skill set that is not natural for him, and not one you are taught. I do agree that his scoring ability up top would not make up for that either, as the not prototypical point guard general types often do with scoring fire power.

I do not think it is the proverbial square peg being tried to fit in the round hole, but I do think it is a forced fit that would result in a clunky overall product for the entire offense.

Darn fine argument sir, kudos! (not joking by the way)

I have seen this kid do un-natural things that almost hit me as super human, granted that was more in high school than college. I read that prior to Seth coming to UNC he was projected late second round in the last NBA draft, as a PG. Point being, I am not the only one that saw traits, natural traits, for the position. But yes, he needed work, specific work for skill sets directly related to the position and that skill work for him so far has been as a 2 that can at times play the 3.

Seth right now is playing his role, he is playing it at a really high level, his role is not to facilitate, that role is in the hands of others, he is doing what he is now asked as you need a really good team mate to do, everyone play their role and the whole is solid. When your role changes you work on skill sets that fit that new role. Look, it isn't as if I am suggesting we play Ingram at the point but the guy played a lot of point for coach Haas last season. Ingram has a different role now and so does Seth.

 

[Bubspub88]

So does a team thrive because they have a great PG or it is the quality of that PGs surrounding cast that frames him as a great PG? Truth is it is some of both but fans look strictly at the teams success or failures to determine it that PG was great or not.

My point is UNC has had a lot of really good college PGs, very few great ones that went on to the next level and showed they were great. What we have been able to enjoy is PGs that come in and grow over the years to becoming great players for UNC and the college game. Joel Berry didn't start a single game as a freshman, Marcus struggled bad first half of his freshman season, Kendal didn't start till half way thru his frosh season. WE have been able to allow our talented freshmen PGs to grow in to the position and not expect them to be great day 1 on campus. The very same is true right now with Cadeau.

I was wondering when I read the post from Kendal's dad in another thread if he was either defending Cadeau or taking a shot at Hubert. No question that the overall talent Cadeau has around him pales compared to what surrounded Kendal as a freshman.

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Elliot’s talents and skillset are pretty dang obvious. Give him the court time to learn from his mistakes, he
presents himself as an intelligent player who wants his team to win. If he improves gradually over
the next two months, the Heels will be a much better team as a result.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Elliot’s talents and skillset are pretty dang obvious. Give him the court time to learn from his mistakes, he
presents himself as an intelligent player who wants his team to win. If he improves gradually over
the next two months, the Heels will be a much better team as a result.

Agreed only, as of late, it is EC who is limiting his own court time, not so much Hubert. It would be irresponsible of Coach Davis to leave a player with two or three fouls in the first 10 minutes on the floor to gather more, making him unavailable for later game situations.

EC will come around, and soon!!

 

[khalidha]

Jimmy Black who hardly ever looked for his own shot and was more concerned with getting the ball to Worthy, Perkins, Doherty and Jordan in scoring positions.

Was he even allowed to shoot? Why would you shoot?

Here is the decision...shoot the rock or pass it to two or three Hall of Famers! lol

 

[al would]

I don't think that both RJ and Cadeau will be on the roster next year. I think it will be one or the other. No info, just my gut.

I hope it's EC in a big way. I've had enough of both RJ and Bacot .. in a loving .. thank you for everything you've done for UNC kind of way.

 

[al would]

What I am saying is Hubert seems to have developed as a coach and he did it really quickly, his decisions are like night and day from his first 2 seasons as our coach.

Agree 100%. I was on HD's case for multiple reasons from day 1 but I can see where he has been doing some good things here lately especially with the development of his defensive schemes. Sometimes I still scratch my head with some of his, or lack of some of his, substitution patterns but it is what it is. As long as there is steady improvement I'll give him props. We really need JWash to come around as an inside presence fairly soon and hopefully Ryan will get his groove back. That is a concern.

 

[Heelicious]

I hope it's EC in a big way. I've had enough of both RJ and Bacot .. in a loving .. thank you for everything you've done for UNC kind of way.

Wut?

I know Bacot has been here forever and I am as hard on him as anyone- but we are going to miss both Bacot and RJ hugely when they go. We could go several years without having a guy who can replace either what Bacot or Rj gives us. They are both highly underrated. Especially rebounding for bacot and perimeter shooting from RJ.

 

[IDUNK4HEELS]

Wut?

I know Bacot has been here forever and I am as hard on him as anyone- but we are going to miss both Bacot and RJ hugely when they go. We could go several years without having a guy who can replace either what Bacot or Rj gives us. They are both highly underrated. Especially rebounding for bacot and perimeter shooting from RJ.

Their court experience and upperclassmen leadership will be sorely missed

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Can't see what the person above said, but the comments suggest he would be happy to lose either RJ or Bacot! If this is true, I really don't understand it. They are some of the best players we have ever had. They have represented our beloved U extremely well, provided leadership and inspiration, they score when needed, rebound well and sacrificed their game to ensure the team was successful. All Family will miss these guys when they leave even though many might not realize how much they did for us for some time! Bacot demanding so much attention is one of the principal reasons our O looks so much better and RJ's consistent scoring and vastly improved D keep us in games! These facts alone should be telling, but the records broken and the intangibles are also important for our program!

Love this team and I really love the fact that these two have led us right back to UNC ball!