Is this how 77 & 81 felt?

[Tru Blu Tar Heel]

I've never felt this emotion with Carolina basketball before. The closest I can remember feeling like this is 1998 against Utah. For the Heels to get SO CLOSE to the summit only for Jenkins to hit the dagger. I just have no words, even after sleeping on it. It's absolute desolation and depression. Geez this sucks. It was a whopper of a game and I just KNEW when Paige hit the double clutch leaning 3 that the Heels would hold to overtime and then exert their will. Hats off to Villanova for an incredible second half run and the Heels just came up 30 seconds short, but man, this feeling will be one that I NEVER forget.

 

[Bur-Heel]

Trust me..the abcer's around the world will never let you forget it!!

 

[strummingram]

I didn't remember the '77 loss. I've never felt worse than '81. Dean had never won it, and I'd never watched the NCAA before. Now, I've experienced 4 championships. Last night, I only felt bad for Brice, Marcus and Joel.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

'68 felt like a foregone conclusion - men against boys. '77 felt the worst...by far. We had that game in our back pocket and gave it away. '81 felt more like a preliminary...we were really good but you knew we'd be even better the next year.

Losing to Weber State in the first round hurt more than ANY of these. The loss to Penn was quickly followed by a dook loss and Penn made it to the FF so that took a bit of the sting out..

 

[heelmanwilm]

Yea 77 was far worse

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Been many since 56 for me, but there have been some GREAT ones too. Will always LOVE this team and smile every time I hear "Marcus Paige" mentioned. What a warrior!

 

[r_u_worthy]

Yeah this is how 77 & 81 felt. Nothing will help except seeing them take the floor again in October. Tough way to end a dang good season. Marcus, Brice and Joel and the other seniors deserved better, they worked their butts off.

 

[notashelbyfan]

I had a bad feeling about that last few secs I just had a bad feeling that they was going to score!

I just didn't have a peace about that last possession for Nova!

 

[NCAAUCoach]

This one stings pretty bad. Maybe because social media and television has us "feel" so much closer to this team than in the past. Maybe because we were led by seniors in a time where good players bail to the NBA before their flaws are noticed. Maybe because as we get older we know just how infrequent these chances are.

For me, this one stings for all of those reasons and the fact that a kid with the character of Marcus Paige flat showed up in his last game and tried to will us to a Title. After having the year he's had, he took it upon himself to show his teammates and so many fans who said "it's over" when we got down 10 just what it's like to wear that blue and white. What it's like to believe in a program you love. For him to hit the shots he hit late only to end up with losing how we did...just doesn't seem right.

 

[keysersosay#1]

Been following the Heels since 1972..yes this is pretty bad ,77 was BAD and so was 81 as detailed above.

Gotta hang in there and just move on, it will take time but we will be back better than ever.

 

[Dr.Jones23]

Was consoling my 15-year-old last night and remembering how badly I felt at his age in '81. But probably felt even worse in '77 as Phil was my first sports hero and if not for all the injuries, that team would likely have brought Dean his first title.

 

[CURRY2WOODYR80]

This and 77 were the worst, 77 really affected me, it did Woody Durham also who you could tell was fighting back the tears on the radio.
This one is very close to that.

 

[HeelFan58]

Yes and no. In '81 IU was just better than we were. We were better than Marquette but so beaten up and we didn't lose on a last shot either. I still think we are better than Villanova. The over 4 minute spell when we couldn't buy a basket was a killer and the shots we missed were not difficult shots either and several unforced turnovers including a bad angle on an entry pass to Brice.

 

[Tru Blu Tar Heel]

Yes and no. In '81 IU was just better than we were. We were better than Marquette but so beaten up and we didn't lose on a last shot either. I still think we are better than Villanova. The over 4 minute spell when we couldn't buy a basket was a killer and the shots we missed were not difficult shots either and several unforced turnovers including a bad angle on an entry pass to Brice.

Simple answer is Villanova did a good job taking away what Carolina wanted to do during that stretch. Get one of those "easy" shots go fall a little earlier, and I think it may have been a different outcome.

 

[thaUNCshow]

The losses as a team dont really affect me too much. We're fortunate to have the success we've had and you know we'll be back playing for a title again in a couple years because thats just what Carolina does. We've had much better teams like in 98 and 2012 that didnt win a title either. This year was just kind of the perfect storm where there were no dominant teams and a weak 1 and done class and we happened to have both the talent and veteran experience.

I feel absolutely SICK for Brice and Paige though. Those guys got thrown into a situation as freshman that they did nothing to deserve and by their senior year they had us playing in the title game. Regardless of the score no one will ever be able to call them losers. Kenny Smith brought it up last night, they brought the pride back to Carolina basketball. This was the first time in a few years that you saw how proud all those former players were last night to be there and wear their baby blue.

 

[gary-7]

I didn't remember the '77 loss. I've never felt worse than '81. Dean had never won it, and I'd never watched the NCAA before. Now, I've experienced 4 championships. Last night, I only felt bad for Brice, Marcus and Joel.

77 was my first to be old enough to be invested, and that one hurt --- BAD --- because of what that team went through. Our potential All-American big man Tommy LaGarde went down for the season and still we survived the sheer thuggery (and that's a kind word) of Terry Holland's UVA goons in the ACC and Digger Phelps' Bill Laimbeer-led Irish goons in the NCAA's, and then beat Vegas when no one outside the state thought we could. Then just when it looked like we'd run outta gas, somehow our walking wounded stormed back in the finals only to come up short. I screamed for Dean to call T.O. to put O'Koren back in, and not go to the Corners until we came down with a lead and the ball.... would that have won it? I dunno. But it sure as hell hurt when we didn't.

It's weird about '81 for me --- that one wasn't the same, because I felt we had won the de facto title when we beat Sampson in the semis, and I was afraid we wouldn't have enough left for the final. When Worthy picked up that bogus 3rd foul in the first half IIRC sure enough we were in trouble, and we had no answer for Thomas. Yet somehow I knew that now with Worthy finally 100% from his broken leg, that 82 would be different. I felt from day-one that we were gonna win it all in 82 --- just like I felt that way from day-one this season. Unfortunately we had this one stolen from us last night --- and that hurts like 77.

 

[Ozheelfan]

..... Nothing will help except seeing them take the floor again in October.....

This.
We are very lucky as fans. In just a few (loooooong) months there'll be a new team, with some new and some familiar faces to cheer on and pull for.

 

[baboo]

Yes and no. In '81 IU was just better than we were. We were better than Marquette but so beaten up and we didn't lose on a last shot either. I still think we are better than Villanova. The over 4 minute spell when we couldn't buy a basket was a killer and the shots we missed were not difficult shots either and several unforced turnovers including a bad angle on an entry pass to Brice.

'Nova fan here. I know there's nothing I can say that will make you all feel better, but please know that you have a great team with coaches and players who are, from what I can see, quality people as well as amazing talents. This may sound strange, but I'm grateful that UNC played very well; I have no interest in seeing 'Nova win an undeserved championship. UNC made 'Nova earn every basket they got.

I do want to comment on the relative merits of the teams. As good as UNC is, there's no evidence that they are actually the better team. On the season we were rated almost identically by every method. UNC has more talent for sure, but 'Nova gets more out of what it has. More to the point, while UNC upped its game and played even better during the tourney than it did in the regular season, 'Nova just played at an unprecedented level. A good case can be made that they played better than any champion since the tourney went to 64 teams (2nd highest point differential, largest FF blowout, etc.). IN THE TOURNEY, 'Nova was simply the better team and there's no shame in losing to a better team.

I do know that Paige believed you guys would win in OT. Others here have expressed the same sentiment. I think the evidence suggests otherwise. 'Nova basically controlled the game during the entire second half despite an incredibly valiant effort from the Tarheels, and almost certainly would have controlled the OT too.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Hurt me bad in 68 too, I just didn't know then they had the best players money could buy!

 

[CURRY2WOODYR80]

Yep Mike, The Bruins did have the best players money could buy, I know one of the guys they tried to recruit and his sister told me what was offered.

 

[dadika13]

Granted, I've only been following since I was 10 years old in 1993 (good year to start) but I don't see how 77 or 81 could compare to the emotional rollercoaster that was the last 3 min of that game Monday night. We lost those games by a combined 21 points. Compare that to Monday night:

Down 10, come all the way back. Down 3, have our senior leader hit one of the greatest shots in NCAA history to tie it up only to have it ripped back away from us with a 30 footer.

I can't imagine anything feeling worse than when that shot went in.

 

[gary-7]

'Nova fan here. I know there's nothing I can say that will make you all feel better, but please know that you have a great team with coaches and players who are, from what I can see, quality people as well as amazing talents. This may sound strange, but I'm grateful that UNC played very well; I have no interest in seeing 'Nova win an undeserved championship. UNC made 'Nova earn every basket they got.

I do want to comment on the relative merits of the teams. As good as UNC is, there's no evidence that they are actually the better team. On the season we were rated almost identically by every method. UNC has more talent for sure, but 'Nova gets more out of what it has. More to the point, while UNC upped its game and played even better during the tourney than it did in the regular season, 'Nova just played at an unprecedented level. A good case can be made that they played better than any champion since the tourney went to 64 teams (2nd highest point differential, largest FF blowout, etc.). IN THE TOURNEY, 'Nova was simply the better team and there's no shame in losing to a better team.

I do know that Paige believed you guys would win in OT. Others here have expressed the same sentiment. I think the evidence suggests otherwise. 'Nova basically controlled the game during the entire second half despite an incredibly valiant effort from the Tarheels, and almost certainly would have controlled the OT too.

You would be incorrect on all counts. And you have nothing to be "grateful" for concerning how we played. UNC is and was the better team. What you should be grateful for is that Nova played over their heads in the tourney, but even that wasn't enough against UNC without egregious help of the striped variety. It is what it is. So enjoy your title... and stay on your own board with this utter nonsense.

 

[vbrs]

this is 77 to me. we were the better team and lost. 81 Indiana was better so not so painful.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

'Nova fan here. I know there's nothing I can say that will make you all feel better, but please know that you have a great team with coaches and players who are, from what I can see, quality people as well as amazing talents. This may sound strange, but I'm grateful that UNC played very well; I have no interest in seeing 'Nova win an undeserved championship. UNC made 'Nova earn every basket they got.

I do want to comment on the relative merits of the teams. As good as UNC is, there's no evidence that they are actually the better team. On the season we were rated almost identically by every method. UNC has more talent for sure, but 'Nova gets more out of what it has. More to the point, while UNC upped its game and played even better during the tourney than it did in the regular season, 'Nova just played at an unprecedented level. A good case can be made that they played better than any champion since the tourney went to 64 teams (2nd highest point differential, largest FF blowout, etc.). IN THE TOURNEY, 'Nova was simply the better team and there's no shame in losing to a better team.

I do know that Paige believed you guys would win in OT. Others here have expressed the same sentiment. I think the evidence suggests otherwise. 'Nova basically controlled the game during the entire second half despite an incredibly valiant effort from the Tarheels, and almost certainly would have controlled the OT too.

I appreciate the post, and that it wasn't of the rub it in our face variety. Nova had a damn good team this year that definitely hit its stride in the tournament and deserved to win that game, IMO. Very well coached team - which made me more accepting of the possible idea of taking Jay Wright to be our coach when Roy eventually hangs it up. I had originally been against it when some brought him up as a potential candidate in another thread we had earlier this year - but now I'd be willing to support the AD taking him from Nova (if Brad Stevens isn't interested in leaving what he's building with the Celtics).

I think when posters say UNC is the "better team" they mean that if they had played a 7 game series, UNC would have won the series. I tend to agree with that, but I realize there's no way to prove this. And frankly, it doesn't matter because it's not a series, it's one game - and one that Nova played better in. However, I will also agree with Paige and disagree with your notion that Nova would have "almost certainly" controlled overtime. The evidence to prove that shouldn't be the early part of the second half where Nova dominated and went on that big run. The evidence should be in the last 3 minutes where they crapped their pants and coughed up a 10 point lead. If Jenkins doesn't hit that shot - the momentum is fully in favor of Carolina going to OT. I think that would have been enough to seal the deal - but again, we'll never know.

Regardless - congrats on the championship.

 

[strummingram]

Unfortunately we had this one stolen from us last night --- and that hurts like 77.

Stolen from us? Please try to refrain from belittling our players and their players and the game itself, by suggesting that. Nothing was "stolen" from us. NOTHING!

 

[gary-7]

Stolen from us? Please try to refrain from belittling our players and their players and the game itself, by suggesting that. Nothing was "stolen" from us. NOTHING!

GMAFB with that garbage. Good Lord.

 

[baboo]

You would be incorrect on all counts. And you have nothing to be "grateful" for concerning how we played. UNC is and was the better team. What you should be grateful for is that Nova played over their heads in the tourney, but even that wasn't enough against UNC without egregious help of the striped variety. It is what it is. So enjoy your title... and stay on your own board with this utter nonsense.

gary-7,

Interesting perspective you have. So if I'm incorrect on all counts, that means UNC is not great team with quality people, didn't play very well, and doesn't have more talent? Way to diss your own team. Or do you just mean you disagree with SOME of my points?

Oddly enough, I do agree with you completely that 'Nova played over their heads. I thought of putting those exact words in my original post, but ended up not doing it. That's how they played at an unprecedented level.

As far as UNC being the better team, that is certainly debatable. Look at the standard analytics, which are not biased by fan interest.

_________________'Nova___________UNC
Pomeroy_________#1 (0.9633)____#2 (0.9522)
Sagarin__________#1 (94.26)______#3 (93.33)
BPI (before NCAAs)_#3 (88.8)______#1 (90.3)
RPI (before NCAAs)_#4 (0.6455)____#5 (0.6420)
Record___________35 - 5_________33 - 7

All but one of these metrics, which account for the whole season (not just one game), favor Villanova. I still wouldn't say that 'Nova is clearly the better team, but there's little to recommend the idea that UNC is better. Without question, though, 'Nova was the better team IN THE TOURNEY. Anyway, there's no shame in losing to the better team.

Finally, with regard to the referees, lots of calls get missed during the heat of the game. There's no reason to think those mistakes favored one side or the other, and any notion that the referees were out to get UNC is just, well..., that claim is not worthy of your team or your fan base.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

And you were doing so swell IN OUR HOUSE

 

[strummingram]

GMAFB with that garbage. Good Lord.

I did. I went easy on you. That was a break. To even think and publicly state that we had that game "stolen" from us is an insult to the players, the coaches, the schools and the fans. Be a sore loser if you want.

 

[DaSheed]

Some of those non-title losses hurt just as much IMHO

1984 not only bothers me, but Jordan as well to this day. Same goes for 1998. Both those teams should have been playing for the title.

 

[gary-7]

I did. I went easy on you. That was a break. To even think and publicly state that we had that game "stolen" from us is an insult to the players, the coaches, the schools and the fans. Be a sore loser if you want.

What term do you want? Purloined? Pilfered? Absconded with? Hell, I haven't cracked the thesaurus yet.
Stating facts is not being a sore loser. And in NO way is that an insult to anyone but the officials that perpetrated it --- and they deserve it. Blatantly unfair officiating (and make no mistake, that's what it was) that changes the game is the insult to the players and the game. Period.
You're a good member of the board, Strum, but right about now you need to get off your high horse --- or should I say, unicorn.

 

[baboo]

I appreciate the post, and that it wasn't of the rub it in our face variety. Nova had a damn good team this year that definitely hit its stride in the tournament and deserved to win that game, IMO. Very well coached team - which made me more accepting of the possible idea of taking Jay Wright to be our coach when Roy eventually hangs it up. I had originally been against it when some brought him up as a potential candidate in another thread we had earlier this year - but now I'd be willing to support the AD taking him from Nova (if Brad Stevens isn't interested in leaving what he's building with the Celtics).

I think when posters say UNC is the "better team" they mean that if they had played a 7 game series, UNC would have won the series. I tend to agree with that, but I realize there's no way to prove this. And frankly, it doesn't matter because it's not a series, it's one game - and one that Nova played better in. However, I will also agree with Paige and disagree with your notion that Nova would have "almost certainly" controlled overtime. The evidence to prove that shouldn't be the early part of the second half where Nova dominated and went on that big run. The evidence should be in the last 3 minutes where they crapped their pants and coughed up a 10 point lead. If Jenkins doesn't hit that shot - the momentum is fully in favor of Carolina going to OT. I think that would have been enough to seal the deal - but again, we'll never know.

Regardless - congrats on the championship.

Hark,

Thanks for the comments. I have no idea which team would win a 7-game series if we were to do it all over again. Based on their season-long ratings, a 7-game series would be close, 4 - 3 going either way. I think it is clearly erroneous to expect that UNC would necessarily win 5 - 2 or 6 - 1 (not that you claimed that). But based on the teams' relative performances in the tourney, 'Nova was clearly better (in the tourney). If they played a 7-game series with both teams playing as they did in the tourney, 'Nova probably wins 5 - 2. I say that not as a flame but with the recognition that 'Nova played about 8 points better than UNC did during the tourney (that is, had a per-game point differential 8 points higher). Not counting the championship game, 'Nova was 8.4 points better on average against tougher competition. 'Nova was just playing MUCH better than UNC up to that point, and UNC really had to up its game to match them.

With regard to the end of the game, I know that UNCers felt like they had the momentum and that it would have carried over to OT. This is possible. But any notion that 'Nova was choking is silly. OF COURSE a really good team like UNC is going to play harder to come back. OF COURSE 'Nova is going to feel less urgency. On top of that, 'Nova was slowing the game down to burn the clock and that may have messed up their offensive rhythm a bit. None of those conditions apply in OT, so there's no reason to expect the momentum to carry over. UNC had a chance to stop 'Nova when 'Nova came back early in the 2nd half and they couldn't do it. They had a chance to keep from falling behind by 10 and couldn't do it. It's unlikely they could have stopped 'Nova in OT also. By I agree it's all speculation.

 

[Archer2]

This one hurts me the most. I felt we played on a level field in all the others. The refs determined the outcome of this one.

 

[Crimson Ghost]

81 felt pretty bad too.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I think it is clearly erroneous to expect that UNC would necessarily win 5 - 2 or 6 - 1 (not that you claimed that)

True. I think it'd be ludicrous to say that... but that's because they stop a 7 game series when one team gets to 4 wins

Kidding aside, you did make some valid points. Again, nice win.

 

[baboo]

True. I think it'd be ludicrous to say that... but that's because they stop a 7 game series when one team gets to 4 wins

Kidding aside, you did make some valid points. Again, nice win.

Got me there! I concede.

 

[strummingram]

What term do you want? Purloined? Pilfered? Absconded with? Hell, I haven't cracked the thesaurus yet.
Stating facts is not being a sore loser. And in NO way is that an insult to anyone but the officials that perpetrated it --- and they deserve it. Blatantly unfair officiating (and make no mistake, that's what it was) that changes the game is the insult to the players and the game. Period.
You're a good member of the board, Strum, but right about now you need to get off your high horse --- or should I say, unicorn.

I'm not trying to be on a "high horse" here. If you want to believe that the refs "stole" the game, fine.

 

[Mox94]

This one, in my mind, is almost worse. That 77 team was so beat up that it was a miracle they made it as far as they did. Still hurt to blow that lead. Can still remember all that time running off the clock as O'Koren waited at the scorers table as Bruce Buckley was being abused during their comeback. But still almost a miracle that they got as far as they did with all the injuries.

In '81 they ran into a juggernaut in Indiana. One of the best teams ever.

I can also think of the years that James Worthy got hurt, and the year Kenny Smith got hurt where you wondered what might have been.

This year was a good ride, and almost unexpected as they really ramped up their play near the end of the year. Thought we had a real shot with the great size advantage over Villanova, especially with the way the switch everything that made for their guards often on big men down low. But kudos to them. They pressure the ball so well that any pass into the post is difficult. And when you shoot the eyes out of it, you aRe hard to beat. Still takes it out of you to have one of those Dean Smith type comebacks and them have your heart ripped out.

 

[TB61]

You would be incorrect on all counts. And you have nothing to be "grateful" for concerning how we played. UNC is and was the better team. What you should be grateful for is that Nova played over their heads in the tourney, but even that wasn't enough against UNC without egregious help of the striped variety. It is what it is. So enjoy your title... and stay on your own board with this utter nonsense.

"Attitude" and "Next Play" -- are what produced the last shot that won the game. And they likely would have produced the same result in overtime.

 

[dgheel57]

"Attitude" and "Next Play" -- are what produced the last shot that won the game. And they likely would have produced the same result in overtime.

You don't know that for sure,going into OT Carolina would've had the Big Mo knowing they still could win. That's just an arrogant statement plain and simple,Jenkins shot wasn't designed,he just threw it up and it went period.