The roster is set, so how do we win the coming season?

[DSouthr]

I have literally had zero conversation with him on any board in MONTHS since right after Bball season ended. Matter of fact the last time we conversed it was us agreeing that EC should have gotten more minutes in the Bama game.

So I'm not really sure what is going on, it is truly unsolicited. But the response he made to me was interesting he said I was making things up.

He is truly the guy that jumps the fence at the zoo gets mauled by the bear and don't understand what went wrong.

OK, I don't know what the heat is from and I am not trying to make that my business but I do have unfinished business with YOU! LOL No, nothing to get upset over, just I asked you why in the Jalen discussion, I would still like to understand where you were coming from in your post.

Understand, I spent the entire season last season arguing with the dave chappel guy to the extent I had to do a thing I never thought I would, I BANNED him from my view. He droned on about what he classified as a lack of ability in Jalen and refused to even consider any other aspect. So I got a bit conditioned to expect the argument that if we depend on Jalen we are in trouble because he just isn't good enough, a position I VERY STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH. But even if that is your opinion as well fine, it is opinion, chappel tried to sell me that nonsense as fact and I took strong issue with that. IN fact it gave birth to the disclaimer you now see on every post I make.

So, back on topic shelby, why? ;-)

 

[gary-7]

I disagree with most of your 3 points, my opinion is different, but I want to talk about something you said that I have been wanting to talk more about, this need for Cadeau to jump shoot better or we don't have a chance at winning at the level we should.

Gary, calling you out, would appreciate your opinion input to this!

While I do believe that Cadeau will shoot much better, I don't see it as critical a point as most seem to. I say that because I don't see Jalen as our 5 camping in the paint like Bacot did. If Jalen is not in the paint, where do ya reckon Jalen's defender is, you know, the other teams center? You have Jalen 15ft from the basket you going to try to guard him with a 2 guard or a wing, good luck with that LOL. When you have the opposing center having to go out and check Jalen for that jumper, all the sudden Cadeau has 1 guy to beat to the rim, his primary defender and no help, if the defending center tries to it is a easy flip back to Jalen to splash that jumper. Power forward screens off his man from the help on Cadeau. I will take 1 guy trying to stop Cadeau from the rim all day long, it will become a lay up drill. Playing Cadeau without help mano ye mano with a wide open paint for the drive and ignoring him as a shooter he still drives by you, it isn't just his quicks, it is the kid being really crafty with his handle, lot of hesys (hesitation dribble) that Kendal was so good with. If his shot is better then it is even that much easier, bring the power forward defender over to help and it is a easy slip to either JWit or Lubin for a flush. Tyson is to good a shooter to help off of and frankly Lubin is a strong mid range shooter that many UNC fans don't yet realize.

So yes, I do strongly believe Cadeau will shoot much better, just saying even if he doesn't it isn't critical for us to win. Gary mentioned Cadeau really looking for his floata game as well, I agree, Seth really started to embrace that last season and it really helped him. I am saying I see him more as a version of Cota than Joel. The larger problem with Cadeau last season was he lost a lot of confidence and no matter what your shooting form looks like, if it is not a confident stroke you will not make many, same thing happened to Seth his freshman season late.

I didn't mention Seth's finishing. He frustrated many of us last seaosn with a tendency to hang in the air and make finishes more complicated than they need be. Indications are that has improved. He has his brother's hops --- time to throw down with authority!

As for EC, his issues last season were easily 95% confidence, and although some scoffed back when I mentioned it, his confidence took a hit when he wasn't started game-1 (and he has since said as much). This season, IF we are going to be at our best, this needs to be "his" team. Once Roy finally figured out that Joel needed to have the keys, great things started to happen. Well, time for a redux. Eliot needs the keys and complete green-light confidence from Hubert to run this machine. He is the sort of player who thrives off his coach's trust, so if he gets that, then have no fear, David --- he will shoot the rock eons better.

You're right, though --- he doesn't have to shoot it like Joel,. but he can certainly shoot it better than Ed. Now, let's get that "floata" working....

 

[notashelbyfan]

OK, I don't know what the heat is from and I am not trying to make that my business but I do have unfinished business with YOU! LOL No, nothing to get upset over, just I asked you why in the Jalen discussion, I would still like to understand where you were coming from in your post.

Understand, I spent the entire season last season arguing with the dave chappel guy to the extent I had to do a thing I never thought I would, I BANNED him from my view. He droned on about what he classified as a lack of ability in Jalen and refused to even consider any other aspect. So I got a bit conditioned to expect the argument that if we depend on Jalen we are in trouble because he just isn't good enough, a position I VERY STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH. But even if that is your opinion as well fine, it is opinion, chappel tried to sell me that nonsense as fact and I took strong issue with that. IN fact it gave birth to the disclaimer you now see on every post I make.

So, back on topic shelby, why? ;-)

I did respond maybe you missed it but I can not see the jump from 6 or 7 minutes a game to having to play, 30 if we need to stay big.

Also if he was good enough to go from 6 or 7 minutes to what we are going to ask him for now we should have seen games where he played big and was a force. He was also most forgotten on the court or it was a kind of a hang on till Bacot was back in the game.

We have had players that didn't get minutes at the first of the year but as the season progressed you couldn't help but giving minutes because they was that good they was destin to take over and be the guy the next year, we didn't see that his minutes stayed the same, but now we are saying he is going to be the number 1 big.

Hicks
Marvin Williams
Zeller
Ed Dvis
Haywood

All guys that wasn't starters at first but the coach couldn't keep their mins down on top 3 and national championship teams but on what was for Carolina standards an average team he couldn't get but 6 to 8 minutes a game.

A couple of things could be the issue Hubert couldn't see what lots of people here can't see that he was to good to get any more minutes or he wasn't getting anymore because the coaches seen that our chances to win went down with him on the court.

Now I hope I'm wrong and I will be more than happy to admit it if I am wrong but I will reserve judgement till we see in practice what non of us really don't know.

 

[DSouthr]

I didn't mention Seth's finishing. He frustrated many of us last seaosn with a tendency to hang in the air and make finishes more complicated than they need be. Indications are that has improved. He has his brother's hops --- time to throw down with authority!

As for EC, his issues last season were easily 95% confidence, and although some scoffed back when I mentioned it, his confidence took a hit when he wasn't started game-1 (and he has since said as much). This season, IF we are going to be at our best, this needs to be "his" team. Once Roy finally figured out that Joel needed to have the keys, great things started to happen. Well, time for a redux. Eliot needs the keys and complete green-light confidence from Hubert to run this machine. He is the sort of player who thrives off his coach's trust, so if he gets that, then have no fear, David --- he will shoot the rock eons better.

You're right, though --- he doesn't have to shoot it like Joel,. but he can certainly shoot it better than Ed. Now, let's get that "floata" working....

The only thing I would maybe not 100% agree with is his losing confidence because he didn't start game 1, it was not long before he was starting and yet we saw his confidence sink. Not sure you will agree but Cadeau did strike me as badly in need of maturity as a young man. Example, his need to have a discussion with the refs when they called him for a foul. Forget what team it was but he went into the second half with no fouls (I think it was zero fouls) and ended up fouling out with over 8mins left? That is a serious maturity thing, I saw far more sulking than I want to see, especially from a freshman. I think that fed into his game and then his confidence fade. I would be shocked if that is the case moving forward but it does explain at least in part why he didn't have the keys as we say.

An aspect of this not really discussed much is the fact that Cadeau really didn't have an off season to really prepare for the college game, he literally went from AAU to UNC with no stopping in between, he has now had a ful off season to prep up for the coming season and now he knows exactly what that challenge will be.

I do very strong think that Cadeau has to have total and complete ownership of the "keys" and yes, this is a team that RJ Davis plays on.

 

[DSouthr]

I did respond maybe you missed it but I can not see the jump from 6 or 7 minutes a game to having to play, 30 if we need to stay big.

Also if he was good enough to go from 6 or 7 minutes to what we are going to ask him for now we should have seen games where he played big and was a force. He was also most forgotten on the court or it was a kind of a hang on till Bacot was back in the game.

We have had players that didn't get minutes at the first of the year but as the season progressed you couldn't help but giving minutes because they was that good they was destin to take over and be the guy the next year, we didn't see that his minutes stayed the same, but now we are saying he is going to be the number 1 big.

Hicks
Marvin Williams
Zeller
Ed Dvis
Haywood

All guys that wasn't starters at first but the coach couldn't keep their mins down on top 3 and national championship teams but on what was for Carolina standards an average team he couldn't get but 6 to 8 minutes a game.

A couple of things could be the issue Hubert couldn't see what lots of people here can't see that he was to good to get any more minutes or he wasn't getting anymore because the coaches seen that our chances to win went down with him on the court.

Now I hope I'm wrong and I will be more than happy to admit it if I am wrong but I will reserve judgement till we see in practice what non of us really don't know.

I mostly agree., it is a monster ask for a kid that played 8.6mins a game as a soph to now be a key player for 30+ mins a game. I think you are sneaking around to the question of why did Jalen only play 8.6mins a game last season, I felt VERY strongly he needed more minutes and expressed that several times a week all of last season, I felt that was a mistake from our staff.

Now why did Jaalen get ONLY 8.6mins a game last season, that is easy, 3 reasons:

1) Poor defender, didn't move his feet well, was often not on the same page as his mates defensively, ESPECIALLY on switches.

2) Bacot, the ACC pre-season ACC POY as well s NCAA pre-season 1st teamer started in front of Jalen. When you are backing up the UNC all time leader in double doubles, a 5yr starter, built to play big and physical inside that was used to playing 36min a game there is very little minutes for the back up.

3) If Hubert trusts you then you will get huge minutes even if you struggle (Caleb Love anyone), he may have trusted Bacot more than any other player he has been the head coach for.

4) I said 3 but I will toss in a 4th reason, concern that Jalen was still not 100% with stamina or legs strength and did not want to see him reinjure that knee because he was fatigued or didn't have that legs as strong to support the knee as he wanted it to be.

 

[NathanFielder]

I disagree with most of your 3 points, my opinion is different, but I want to talk about something you said that I have been wanting to talk more about, this need for Cadeau to jump shoot better or we don't have a chance at winning at the level we should.

Gary, calling you out, would appreciate your opinion input to this!

While I do believe that Cadeau will shoot much better, I don't see it as critical a point as most seem to. I say that because I don't see Jalen as our 5 camping in the paint like Bacot did. If Jalen is not in the paint, where do ya reckon Jalen's defender is, you know, the other teams center? You have Jalen 15ft from the basket you going to try to guard him with a 2 guard or a wing, good luck with that LOL. When you have the opposing center having to go out and check Jalen for that jumper, all the sudden Cadeau has 1 guy to beat to the rim, his primary defender and no help, if the defending center tries to it is a easy flip back to Jalen to splash that jumper. Power forward screens off his man from the help on Cadeau. I will take 1 guy trying to stop Cadeau from the rim all day long, it will become a lay up drill. Playing Cadeau without help mano ye mano with a wide open paint for the drive and ignoring him as a shooter he still drives by you, it isn't just his quicks, it is the kid being really crafty with his handle, lot of hesys (hesitation dribble) that Kendal was so good with. If his shot is better then it is even that much easier, bring the power forward defender over to help and it is a easy slip to either JWit or Lubin for a flush. Tyson is to good a shooter to help off of and frankly Lubin is a strong mid range shooter that many UNC fans don't yet realize.

So yes, I do strongly believe Cadeau will shoot much better, just saying even if he doesn't it isn't critical for us to win. Gary mentioned Cadeau really looking for his floata game as well, I agree, Seth really started to embrace that last season and it really helped him. I am saying I see him more as a version of Cota than Joel. The larger problem with Cadeau last season was he lost a lot of confidence and no matter what your shooting form looks like, if it is not a confident stroke you will not make many, same thing happened to Seth his freshman season late.

I'll start with the floater comment. It's something I agree with and it's something I said several months ago too.

Who Needs to Work On What?

Most of the attention for now might be on who stays and who goes, and what we need in the portal. Fair enough, but also very important is what our returning players need to do to be what we need them to be next season. Some of these are obvious. Elliot and Seth need to become better...

northcarolina.forums.rivals.com

In a thread "who needs to work on what", I said the following on Cadeau:
"Apart from the obvious... Develop a floater game. He's starting from 18% 3PT. Most even bad 3PT shooters are like 25-30%. Granted, he didn't attempt a ton of 3s so maybe he's like a 25% 3PT shooter in reality. But regardless, a floater game will really help him. That at least makes him a threat to score outside of the restricted area. I don't think he'll ever be a 3 level scorer at UNC, but at the least, he can improve on scoring in the paint. And with his limited height, that means developing a floater game."

I want my primary ball handler to at least shoot a reasonable percentage from 3 or at least be at the point where the opposition's game plan isn't "let him shoot." I don't think you're in a great position in today's basketball if the player that will have the ball in his hands a ton is a non-threat from the perimeter.

And in post-2000 UNC history, it has usually taken a player taking an offensive leap to turn a talented team into a championship team. In 2005, Ray Felton turned into a pretty dead-eye 3PT shooter. Do they win it all if he shot 31% from 3 like he did as a sophomore? I don't think so. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Ty Lawson class was an elite 8 collapse away from going to 3 straight Final Fours. Ty was a solid 3PT shooter as a freshman and sophomore. Then UNC became devastating once he turned into a lights out 3PT shooter his junior year.

I'm also confused that you're expressing concerns about this team's ability to contend for a Final Four. I think one thing that would go a long way to alleviate that is if Cadeau shot the ball well from 3. It would be a game changer for this team. It would certainly be a game changer in the half court since teams would have to guard him closer. It would solve a lot of things IMO.

And March will come down to how they execute in the half court. It always does. They're going to play a team that doesn't turn the ball over that plays a 60 possession game. How will UNC execute in the half court offensively and defensively? That will be the boring answer but the deciding factor in March. I know UNC will be great in transition. They've been great in transition for 70+ years. It won't teach us anything.

And again, I think Cadeau will have a below average 3PT shooting season. Like 31%, which would be a significant improvement from last season. I just hope he's never scared of shooting it if the defense gives it to him. But I think the days of a 0 shooting PG just passing and driving his way through college basketball are over. Especially a 0 shooting 6'0" PG.

And one more point. I'm not banking on Washington as a reason that Cadeau doesn't need to shoot it at an improved level. That would be quite a leap to say Cadeau's shooting improvement doesn't matter as much because UNC has Jalen Washington.

 

[NathanFielder]

Fwiw, the sportsbooks generally have UNC +2000 to win the National Championship anywhere from 6-8 shortest odds. Their lowest price I saw is +1400. Also saw a +1800.

I think +2000 is a fair price for them.

Last year I saw them at +5000 at one book and took a bet on it. I think they were around +3500 once the dust settled in the preseason.

So looks like the sportsbooks think this is an Elite 8 team

 

[alabamaheel]

While I think EC will and should shoot much better from deep this season, if he doesn’t it will not be from hurt feelings. Also, if he doesn’t shoot it better teams will sag off ie, last year, = less playing time. At some point he’ll have to own up to sucking at shooing if that’s the case.

I don’t think that will be the case. We have to have him at his best and that includes at least a serviceable shot. It will effect the whole team.

 

[notashelbyfan]

I mostly agree., it is a monster ask for a kid that played 8.6mins a game as a soph to now be a key player for 30+ mins a game. I think you are sneaking around to the question of why did Jalen only play 8.6mins a game last season, I felt VERY strongly he needed more minutes and expressed that several times a week all of last season, I felt that was a mistake from our staff.

Now why did Jaalen get ONLY 8.6mins a game last season, that is easy, 3 reasons:

1) Poor defender, didn't move his feet well, was often not on the same page as his mates defensively, ESPECIALLY on switches.

2) Bacot, the ACC pre-season ACC POY as well s NCAA pre-season 1st teamer started in front of Jalen. When you are backing up the UNC all time leader in double doubles, a 5yr starter, built to play big and physical inside that was used to playing 36min a game there is very little minutes for the back up.

3) If Hubert trusts you then you will get huge minutes even if you struggle (Caleb Love anyone), he may have trusted Bacot more than any other player he has been the head coach for.

4) I said 3 but I will toss in a 4th reason, concern that Jalen was still not 100% with stamina or legs strength and did not want to see him reinjure that knee because he was fatigued or didn't have that legs as strong to support the knee as he wanted it to be.

I will counter with one point that should be important if his lack of playing time was because of being a poor defender why did that not improve over the course of an entire season. Is it the staffs inability to develop players or is it just that he isn't capable? If he didn't improve a noticeable amount over the course of an entire season I have a hard time doing it during an off season to the level that we need from him next season.

Either one is a serious issue, I have felt like and I could be wrong that player development is an issue with our staff. I'm not talking about a player Learning the system, I'm talking about being a better player, one thing that I always knew wpuld happen with Roy coaching was players got better everyday, and I think this is a lost art at Carolina.

 

[gary-7]

The only thing I would maybe not 100% agree with is his losing confidence because he didn't start game 1,

Well, again, he said so himself.
Not starting him was simply a bad move, and there's really no mitigating that --- but now is a new day, and fortunately we got another chance to get it right. Give him the keys and the green light and let's rock.

 

[heels05champs]

Hubert is in year 4 and we need to see some growth in his coaching. Give EC the keys and don’t throttle him in certain game situations by allowing RJ to pound the air out of the ball. Become more multiple on defense, press more and half-court trap more. Limit the over coaching via set plays. Develop a bench early in the season and it’ll pay off in the long run. Run run run on offense. Bring back the back door lob that was a patent play in the Roy years. I’m sure I could name more, but these are things I’d like to see.

 

[gary-7]

Hubert is in year 4 and we need to see some growth in his coaching. Give EC the keys and don’t throttle him in certain game situations by allowing RJ to pound the air out of the ball. Become more multiple on defense, press more and half-court trap more. Limit the over coaching via set plays. Develop a bench early in the season and it’ll pay off in the long run. Run run run on offense. Bring back the back door lob that was a patent play in the Roy years. I’m sure I could name more, but these are things I’d like to see.

All fair suggestions.

 

[NathanFielder]

I will counter with one point that should be important if his lack of playing time was because of being a poor defender why did that not improve over the course of an entire season. Is it the staffs inability to develop players or is it just that he isn't capable? If he didn't improve a noticeable amount over the course of an entire season I have a hard time doing it during an off season to the level that we need from him next season.

Either one is a serious issue, I have felt like and I could be wrong that player development is an issue with our staff. I'm not talking about a player Learning the system, I'm talking about being a better player, one thing that I always knew wpuld happen with Roy coaching was players got better everyday, and I think this is a lost art at Carolina.

I know your point is about Washington but RJ has developed into an All American under Hubert. So if all things are equal, there is at least evidence that players can develop and develop rather significantly under Hubert. Whether that’s directly because of the staff, idk but if there’s going to be blame for the lack of Washington’s development. There needs to be credit for RJ’s significant development.

I’m still in wait and see mode with Hubert. He took a very average team (to UNC standards) to the brink of a National Championship in his first year. That’s something Roy never really came close to doing at UNC. Roy’s really good UNC teams were all loaded and you kinda knew they would be in the hunt.

Then Hubert had the same average roster and fell on his face. Despite the fact I wasn’t that high on that team, they still should’ve made the NCAA Tournament with that roster.

Then last year, I think some would say it was a good season. Some would say they should’ve won another game in the NCAA Tournament. So they were like 1 win away from everyone saying it was a good season?

We’ll see this year. He’s had a weird first three years and this is the first year where he has first round NBA talent on the roster. It will be interesting.

 

[NathanFielder]

Hubert is in year 4 and we need to see some growth in his coaching. Give EC the keys and don’t throttle him in certain game situations by allowing RJ to pound the air out of the ball. Become more multiple on defense, press more and half-court trap more. Limit the over coaching via set plays. Develop a bench early in the season and it’ll pay off in the long run. Run run run on offense. Bring back the back door lob that was a patent play in the Roy years. I’m sure I could name more, but these are things I’d like to see.

I’ve brought this up before and I know it isn’t how UNC plays. Nor is it necessarily how I want UNC to play.

But from 2018 (I know UNC won it in 2017). Only one National Champion ranked in the top 100 in tempo (Kansas in 2022 ranked 65th). Everyone else ranked 150 or slower and three of the teams ranked outside of 300th in tempo.

Also, most of the Final Four teams don’t play at a super high tempo.

This isn’t me saying UNC should walk the ball up and bleed clock. I’m just wondering why other teams have extremely good success slowing the game down but to even entertain that for UNC is blasphemy.

Playing slower seems to work for other teams. Why can’t it work for UNC?

 

[al would]

In a nutshell ... the less RJ plays point the better this team will be. jmo

 

[alabamaheel]

In a nutshell ... the less RJ plays point the better this team will be. jmo

You mean the better EC can shoot the better this team will be.

 

[NathanFielder]

You mean the better EC can shoot the better this team will be.

100%. RJ played the volume of minutes the last 2 seasons because he had to. Did people want more minutes for Dmarco Dunn? He didn’t do much with more minutes at Penn State last year. Trimble has been a developmental offensive player the last two years.

If Elliot Cadeau and Seth Trimble give you more offensively, then RJ won’t have as much of a need to be the PG2. Also, Jackson should be able to give RJ more of a breather than Wojcik or Dunn did the last 2 seasons.

 

[al would]

You mean the better EC can shoot the better this team will be.

No sir/ma'am. I meant the less RJ plays pg the better off this team will be. With the depth on this team RJ should be 3rd on the pg depth chart at best. RJ in 4 or so yrs. has yet to show anything resembling UNC pg skills and I doubt the leopard has changed his spots in the off season. jmo of course ..

 

[alabamaheel]

No sir/ma'am. I meant the less RJ plays pg the better off this team will be. With the depth on this team RJ should be 3rd on the pg depth chart at best. RJ in 4 or so yrs. has yet to show anything resembling UNC pg skills and I doubt the leopard has changed his spots in the off season. jmo of course ..

I think you are confused. If EC could shoot, then RJ wouldn’t have to play pg.
Edit to say, read Nathan’s post above. He nailed it.

 

[al would]

I think you are confused. If EC could shoot, then RJ wouldn’t have to play pg.
Edit to say, read Nathan’s post above. He nailed it.

Then we will agree to disagree. Even if EC didn't prove he could shoot last yr after being jerked around by hd in his rookie yr. he is still true pg. I can tell you for fact that RJ doesn't have a pg bone in his body because I've watched him butcher the position every time he's tried to play it in the past and last season was a glaring example of his ineptness at that position. RJ is always looking for his shot first and he is not a pg. Is what it is.

 

[NathanFielder]

No sir/ma'am. I meant the less RJ plays pg the better off this team will be. With the depth on this team RJ should be 3rd on the pg depth chart at best. RJ in 4 or so yrs. has yet to show anything resembling UNC pg skills and I doubt the leopard has changed his spots in the off season. jmo of course ..

What PG depth? Seth was barely a PG on this team last year. He played off the ball.

Do you think Seth has PG skills? My lean is Seth is more of a wing than a PG.

Seth averaged 0.9 apg in 17 mpg last year. For comparison, Seventh Woods averaged 2.1 apg in 10 mpg in 2018-19.

Unless people think Ian Jackson can play PG… I don’t see a ton of depth at PG.

For me, one of the underrated question marks on this team is can Seth be a legitimate PG2. It will go a long way for those who think RJ is incapable of playing PG.

 

[alabamaheel]

Then we will agree to disagree. Even if EC didn't prove he could shoot last yr after being jerked around by hd in his rookie yr. he is still true pg. I can tell you for fact that RJ doesn't have a pg bone in his body because I've watched him butcher the position every time he's tried to play it in the past and last season was a glaring example of his ineptness at that position. RJ is always looking for his shot first and he is not a pg. Is what it is.

Pretty funny you mentioned fact when talking about rjs pg skills and said “if EC didn’t prove he could shoot”. lol he proved it fact. Look I didn’t say RJ was the best for the pg position. But it’s kinda funny that no one around here heard many complaints when we were winning a few years ago with him taking over the duties. Peeps don’t complain when they are winning, I get it. But to complain about one player being the downfall as you have done is ignorance. But like you said we’ll just agree to disagree. Who else was going to do it? EC proved he couldn’t shoot, regardless of why, confidence or whatever any other weak excuse.

 

[al would]

But to complain about one player being the downfall as you have done is ignorance.

Never said RJ at pg would be the downfall of this team just said I think the less pg he plays the better off this years team will be ... big difference. Time will tell about EC and his shooting.

 

[alabamaheel]

Never said RJ at pg would be the downfall of this team just said I think the less pg he plays the better off this years team will be ... big difference. Time will tell about EC and his shooting.

I know we can agree that the team needs EC to shoot it better. And I know I don’t want to see RJ dribbling around the perimeter a whole bunch.

 

[DSouthr]

Well, again, he said so himself.
Not starting him was simply a bad move, and there's really no mitigating that --- but now is a new day, and fortunately we got another chance to get it right. Give him the keys and the green light and let's rock.

Gary, I simply disagree on the point of Cadeau not starting his first game, we went back and forth on this and we agreed that we simply disagree, opinion vs opinion. But I have as well shared, even recently, Cadeau has to have the full set of keys this season, Cadeau needs to be the point of the sword, he was not ready for that last season, said based on the results of the season.

I think it is silly for anyone to not realize that Cadeau should be MUCH improved, many reasons why and think I have talked about at least most of them. I do think ABSOLYTELY he will jump shoot better, of course that is a really low bar that was set last season for his jump shooting. I think in every aspect his play will be noticeably improved, most of all I think he in terms of maturity will be radically improved and that needed to happen.

Where I step away from a lot of the talk is that for me, I don't see Cadeau's jump shooting as a key for this coming team, again, it will be improved but I doubt it will ever become a strength of his game, be glad to say I was wrong it that turns out different. I think far more important is having good spacing to allow guys to play to their strengths, Cadeau's scoring strength to me is driving and finishing at the rim or slipping a pass to a mate. Clearing out that lane from defenders is much more a key for us in my view now that Bacot is gone. And who does that, Jalen and Lubin to a lesser extent. I would rather see Cadeau score 6 pts and get 8 assists than to score 16pts and 1 or 2 assists. I don't want to see Cadeau or any other player we have shoot shots they are not confident taking. I want Cadeau's scoring efficiency up more than the volume of shots he takes. It is like I have always told ya gary, I prefer my PG to be the set up man for others to finish.

 

[DSouthr]

I will counter with one point that should be important if his lack of playing time was because of being a poor defender why did that not improve over the course of an entire season. Is it the staffs inability to develop players or is it just that he isn't capable? If he didn't improve a noticeable amount over the course of an entire season I have a hard time doing it during an off season to the level that we need from him next season.

Either one is a serious issue, I have felt like and I could be wrong that player development is an issue with our staff. I'm not talking about a player Learning the system, I'm talking about being a better player, one thing that I always knew wpuld happen with Roy coaching was players got better everyday, and I think this is a lost art at Carolina.

I think Jalen actually did improve as a defender as the season progressed, he had that awful game vs Tenn that just stuck in the minds of many fans. But saying that does not mean he improved enough to cut deeper in to Bacot's minutes, at very least in Hubert's belief as well as many fans. I think there were very strong reasons for that, talked at length about it. I also after every game lamented that Jalen did not get more minutes.

I agree, it is a hard ask for the kid to go from 8.6mins a game to having now to play what is likely around 30mins a game, so hard in fact that I don't believe you will find anything from me that has not expressed that as a concern I have, a concern that I feel will limit this coming team. What I have not questioned nor do I have concern about is his Jalen's talent and ability, I am concerned on his being able to display that at a high level for 30mins a game across a long season considering his minutes last season, history of injury, and he picks up a lot of fouls.

 

[DSouthr]

What PG depth? Seth was barely a PG on this team last year. He played off the ball.

Do you think Seth has PG skills? My lean is Seth is more of a wing than a PG.

Seth averaged 0.9 apg in 17 mpg last year. For comparison, Seventh Woods averaged 2.1 apg in 10 mpg in 2018-19.

Unless people think Ian Jackson can play PG… I don’t see a ton of depth at PG.

For me, one of the underrated question marks on this team is can Seth be a legitimate PG2. It will go a long way for those who think RJ is incapable of playing PG.

Seth didn't play PG last season because he played behind a 3yr starter that was our PG in a Natty game and a 5 star what some considered a generational PG. Seth has not worked as a PG since coming to UNC, he had no choice if he wanted to play to adapt to other positions (shooting guard as well as small forward). You can not tell me that Seth can not play the PG position at a high level, you can't because he has not been in that position to show you that he can or can't.

 

[al would]

Where I step away from a lot of the talk is that for me, I don't see Cadeau's jump shooting as a key for this coming team, again, it will be improved but I doubt it will ever become a strength of his game, be glad to say I was wrong it that turns out different. I think far more important is having good spacing to allow guys to play to their strengths, Cadeau's scoring strength to me is driving and finishing at the rim or slipping a pass to a mate. Clearing out that lane from defenders is much more a key for us in my view now that Bacot is gone. And who does that, Jalen and Lubin to a lesser extent. I would rather see Cadeau score 6 pts and get 8 assists than to score 16pts and 1 or 2 assists. I don't want to see Cadeau or any other player we have shoot shots they are not confident taking. I want Cadeau's scoring efficiency up more than the volume of shots he takes. It is like I have always told ya gary, I prefer my PG to be the set up man for others to finish.

I can't see anything in that that I would disagree with. EC should not be expected to be a/the primary scorer and hopefully no one else on this yrs. team carries that mantle because it makes you one dimensional. EC is a really good pg and if he could get 6pts. and 8 dimes along with a couple boards and steals pg I would consider that a low bar. There are .. oops .. should be to many scoring options this yr to depend on any one or 2 people to be expected to carry a load and with multiple options I would think double dimes for EC should be the norm as well as this team averaging 80-83+ ppg. And I'm looking foward to some really good things from this years first year players. Don't muck it up hubs !!

 

[alabamaheel]

Seth didn't play PG last season because he played behind a 3yr starter that was our PG in a Natty game and a 5 star what some considered a generational PG. Seth has not worked as a PG since coming to UNC, he had no choice if he wanted to play to adapt to other positions (shooting guard as well as small forward). You can not tell me that Seth can not play the PG position at a high level, you can't because he has not been in that position to show you that he can or can't.

One thing I loved about Roy was other coaches adapted to him. He would implement something and they would try to react in order to stop it. That’s exactly what happened to HD during the bama game. He put Withers in in order to stop Grant, who killed us. He succeeded because it slowed Grant down, but at the expense of our offense grinding to a halt. I thought Seth should have been in to keep things flowing a little better. He’d at least made some shots. I know they were sagging off of EC and practically using that to double team guys. Anyway sorry to beat a dead horse. But, if EC shoots it better from deep it will open up not only things for others but also himself. Imo he has to shoot it better, if not, then the same thing will happen. Only plus is it looks as if we have a couple more peeps who can come in off the bench to get it done this year.

 

[al would]

One thing I loved about Roy was other coaches adapted to him. He would implement something and they would try to react in order to stop it. That’s exactly what happened to HD during the bama game. He put Withers in in order to stop Grant, who killed us. He succeeded because it slowed Grant down, but at the expense of our offense grinding to a halt. I thought Seth should have been in to keep things flowing a little better. He’d at least made some shots. I know they were sagging off of EC and practically using that to double team guys. Anyway sorry to beat a dead horse. But, if EC shoots it better from deep it will open up not only things for others but also himself. Imo he has to shoot it better, if not, then the same thing will happen. Only plus is it looks as if we have a couple more peeps who can come in off the bench to get it done this year.

Then maybe the biggest question for this season is not about this season's roster but how the coach will use it. I guess that's a thread on it's on.

 

[gary-7]

Gary, I simply disagree on the point of Cadeau not starting his first game, we went back and forth on this and we agreed that we simply disagree, opinion vs opinion. But I have as well shared, even recently, Cadeau has to have the full set of keys this season, Cadeau needs to be the point of the sword, he was not ready for that last season, said based on the results of the season.

I think it is silly for anyone to not realize that Cadeau should be MUCH improved, many reasons why and think I have talked about at least most of them. I do think ABSOLYTELY he will jump shoot better, of course that is a really low bar that was set last season for his jump shooting. I think in every aspect his play will be noticeably improved, most of all I think he in terms of maturity will be radically improved and that needed to happen.

Where I step away from a lot of the talk is that for me, I don't see Cadeau's jump shooting as a key for this coming team, again, it will be improved but I doubt it will ever become a strength of his game, be glad to say I was wrong it that turns out different. I think far more important is having good spacing to allow guys to play to their strengths, Cadeau's scoring strength to me is driving and finishing at the rim or slipping a pass to a mate. Clearing out that lane from defenders is much more a key for us in my view now that Bacot is gone. And who does that, Jalen and Lubin to a lesser extent. I would rather see Cadeau score 6 pts and get 8 assists than to score 16pts and 1 or 2 assists. I don't want to see Cadeau or any other player we have shoot shots they are not confident taking. I want Cadeau's scoring efficiency up more than the volume of shots he takes. It is like I have always told ya gary, I prefer my PG to be the set up man for others to finish.

Again, it was what it was, and the only way to mitigate it is to take advantage of the second chance like Roy got with Joel.

As for Eliot, you don't need to worry as to his role --- he has, and always will be a facilitator first and foremost, even when he has a green light.

 

[sdingeldein]

I'll use this reply to go ahead and post some stuff that has been observed at practices and y'all can speculate as to whether it will come to fruition in games:

- It seems safe to say we will run early and often, and yes, 9-10 deep seems to finally be a real thing
(the obvious remaining question is will we take the foot off the gas in second halves? --- I hope not)

- maybe the most noticable evolution is defensive pressure. The depth and versatilty has afforded a premium on really getting up in people's grilles, and the staff has emphasized max effort to that end
(the remaining question is how mutiple we will be once games start --- I hope we are, as this bunch is built to scramble)

- speaking of defense, the addition of Ian and Drake gives us an immediate shot in the arm. These two are athletic as hell and versatile as to positions they can guard, and they play with an edge. In general, if you add up what we can throw at people without having to worry about fatigue, this has a chance to be a reign of terror

- make no mistake, we will miss High (who was indeed poised for a soph leap), but the addition of the last two transfers affords us some fouls to give behind JWash, and that is important, as keeping him out of foul trouble will be a priority. I saw the GaTech kid play live last season down here, and even though hs's not a skilled finisher, he will flat get after it in the paint and has a mean streak --- and of course Lubin has that tough old-man game.

- speaking of JWash, barring further injury you should see an offensive force emerge. As i've tried to convey, his turn-around/face-up game is showing to be unguardable and almost automatic. In fact, I'll venture to speculate that he'll shoot a higher pct on those 10-12 footers than Mando shot from the block, and of course he is a more-than-legit Stretch threat.
(the obvious questions concern, again, him staying healthy and keeping him out of foul trouble --- utilizing depth and being creative in post defense vs bruisers is in order).

- the observation that comes out over and over is that this team can shoot the eyes out of it. Tyson is as advertised, RJ is a pro at this point and JWash has an NBA stroke You'll not see anything like a repeat of last season with Eliot, Seth should also bump up, Withers can shoot it as well and the frosh wings are fearless. More than one former player has opined that a team 40% on 3s is realistic for this group.
(with that said, we still need to play inside-out and not live and die from the arc)

- finally (provided we don't eschew sound inside-out ball) there should be no reason to fret about half-court execution. Particularly, if defenses have to respect EC's shot, there's nobody he can't break down --- hell, sometimes he even broke down guys who were playing 10 feet off of him --- and there's no way to keep him out of the paint (BTW, my biggest hope for EC is to perfect his floater). Moreover, we have multiple guys who can finish plays without resorting to last-second heaves.

So... the ingredients are there for a high ceiling. No college team is perfect --- it's a matter of making the most of those ingredients and covering weaknesses. We will need a commitment to team rebounding, to transition even on made shots (as opposed to so danged many set plays), and the ethos of giving max effort until you hafta give the "tired" signal, knowing we have real depth.

Nice assessment, and I particularly agree with your comments about JWash. People underestimate the loss of 2 years of PT (and really his first year here as he was still rehabbing). If he stays healthy he could be a real problem for other teams. I think Seth will take another step up (and he shot nearly 42% from three). I think the ceiling is VERY high. The glass is way more than 1/2 full.

 

[DSouthr]

Nice assessment, and I particularly agree with your comments about JWash. People underestimate the loss of 2 years of PT (and really his first year here as he was still rehabbing). If he stays healthy he could be a real problem for other teams. I think Seth will take another step up (and he shot nearly 42% from three). I think the ceiling is VERY high. The glass is way more than 1/2 full.

Before considering how Jalen played last season, really wish more folks would understand how much development court time he missed prior to UNC. Your typical incoming freshman has had not only 4 seasons of high school ball but 4 seasons of summer league, 4yrs of both body as well as game development. Jalen had a fraction of that. Played well as a freshman in high school, soph season was taken out mostly by a shoulder injury, then of course his Jr season to the knee. Came back summer after Jr year and played AAU ball but had to shut it down late due to paint in that knee that resulted in surgery #2 on the knee, wiping out his Sr high school season, left him rehabbing when he got to UNC. So basically, he got a freshman season of high school putting him far behind the typical freshman.

I looked at last season more like his freshman season because he finally had the time to prepare for a season and not have to rehab an injury, thou I am not sure he played at 100% last season, he was far closer to it than at any point since his freshman high school season. I just think that before going in to the topic of how Jalen played last season this should be a primary consideration.

 

[DSouthr]

Again, it was what it was, and the only way to mitigate it is to take advantage of the second chance like Roy got with Joel.

As for Eliot, you don't need to worry as to his role --- he has, and always will be a facilitator first and foremost, even when he has a green light.

We have won with a lot of different types of PGs, there isn't really a 1 size fits all version of PG that we have won with. We have had the Joel, Marcus volume jump shooting PG, we have won with weak jump shooting guys like Kendal, Kenny Black and Easy Ed. We have had hybrids with guys like Raymond, Jet, and Ty. I look at Cadeau as a maybe new and improved version of Eddy, I would say TY but Ty jump shot much better even as a freshman.

I have always looked at it like this, I think you need 3 big time scoring threats on the court, in a perfect world my 3 scoring threats would be from the 2, 3, and 5 spots. But, if we have a Kenny Anderson like 2 that is not a big time scorer, then my PG needs to score more, if my center is not a big time scorer then my power forward needs to add more. On this coming team the 2 and the 3 will be scorers for the most part, if Jalen is not forced to be a back to the basket type 5, I think he will give us good numbers. I do think guys like Lubin and JWit can chip in nice scoring games if and when needed, same with Cadeau. Just the way this team is set up and in my personal view, I need more assists from Cadeau and fewer jump shots than what we needed from Joel.

 

[DSouthr]

Again, it was what it was, and the only way to mitigate it is to take advantage of the second chance like Roy got with Joel.

As for Eliot, you don't need to worry as to his role --- he has, and always will be a facilitator first and foremost, even when he has a green light.

My concern here is that last season Cadeau didn't have the keys, RJ had them and RJ is back again this season, so who now will have the keys? It isn't a matter of what you or I want, the question is who does Hubert decide to give those keys to? And honestly, watching Hubert's approach to things, how can I or you for that matter, not expect RJ to remain in charge of those keys?

RJ, man, kid plays with the heart of a warrior, his hard work should in no way be stepped on, I want RJ in situations that allow him a better chance to produce, I want teams trying to guard him one on one with no help because they can't help off of another real scoring threat. I want Cadeau to set all that up, not take away from it. I want as soon as we see there is no great primary or secondary break option, I want us to go directly in to attacking the defense, not dancing around up top for 15-20seconds wasting time. Any of our players, if they have a clean shot that they are comfortable and confident in then take it unless there is a better shot with a clear and clean passing lane. There is a difference between quick shots and rushed shots, quick shots mean taking them early n the shot clock, take a clean shot any time it is there if you feel it. A rushed shot, even if it is RJ, don't want them, don't waste the shot clock and you have time to find a clean shot over a rushed one. You have to find a clean look early by a guy that knocks them down and only ever pass that up if there is an even easier shot that presents itself.

 

[alabamaheel]

My concern here is that last season Cadeau didn't have the keys, RJ had them and RJ is back again this season, so who now will have the keys? It isn't a matter of what you or I want, the question is who does Hubert decide to give those keys to? And honestly, watching Hubert's approach to things, how can I or you for that matter, not expect RJ to remain in charge of those keys?

RJ, man, kid plays with the heart of a warrior, his hard work should in no way be stepped on, I want RJ in situations that allow him a better chance to produce, I want teams trying to guard him one on one with no help because they can't help off of another real scoring threat. I want Cadeau to set all that up, not take away from it. I want as soon as we see there is no great primary or secondary break option, I want us to go directly in to attacking the defense, not dancing around up top for 15-20seconds wasting time. Any of our players, if they have a clean shot that they are comfortable and confident in then take it unless there is a better shot with a clear and clean passing lane. There is a difference between quick shots and rushed shots, quick shots mean taking them early n the shot clock, take a clean shot any time it is there if you feel it. A rushed shot, even if it is RJ, don't want them, don't waste the shot clock and you have time to find a clean shot over a rushed one. You have to find a clean look early by a guy that knocks them down and only ever pass that up if there is an even easier shot that presents itself.

I think it’s really just semantics, but I don’t care about keys. The pg needs to facilitate and distribute, and score to keep the defense honest and the rest of the team needs to do the same thing after the pg does it. Somewhere in there a leader can lead. That can be 1-5. If it comes down to keys then EC needs them to drive the bus. But and I say but he has to be respected on offense from outside the paint. If not, then it’s only his fault for being pulled and or not getting the “deserved “ amount of playing time. No hurt feelings or confidence excuses this year. Put your big boy panties on and ball. WE HAVE TO HAVE HIM imo.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

I have been saying this since EC arrived! I don't know why peeps don't understand the power of the mid-range game! Peeps talk about efficiency and other rigamarole, but real ballers know nothing breaks down a D better than a person roaming on the inside with the ball! Zone or Man gets stressed once the ball gets inside! EC has to take shots with confidence and yes hit a few, but his strength will be in stressing the D and providing much cleaner looks for our shooters and Bigs! I fully expect EC to score more than ever, but I also expect him to raise the level of our entire team! Seth figured this out too! Can you imaging EC and Seth coming at you full speed and trying to figure out how to stop them AND the ball???? Shooters get ready because you will get practice shots!

When in Europe give the keys to RJ; at home to EC! As long as EC and RJ are in the front seat; I know our Ferrari is on point!

 

[DSouthr]

One thing I loved about Roy was other coaches adapted to him. He would implement something and they would try to react in order to stop it. That’s exactly what happened to HD during the bama game. He put Withers in in order to stop Grant, who killed us. He succeeded because it slowed Grant down, but at the expense of our offense grinding to a halt. I thought Seth should have been in to keep things flowing a little better. He’d at least made some shots. I know they were sagging off of EC and practically using that to double team guys. Anyway sorry to beat a dead horse. But, if EC shoots it better from deep it will open up not only things for others but also himself. Imo he has to shoot it better, if not, then the same thing will happen. Only plus is it looks as if we have a couple more peeps who can come in off the bench to get it done this year.

Roy got that from Dean. Opposing coaches knew what Dean's teams were going to do, Deans team typically did not even break down their coming opponents, Dean knew the other team already knew what his team was going to do and he didn't care. the other teams were going to adjust to his team, he was not going to adjust to them. Dean's approach was that his team was simply going to execute what they did better than anyone else.

 

[DSouthr]

I think it’s really just semantics, but I don’t care about keys. The pg needs to facilitate and distribute, and score to keep the defense honest and the rest of the team needs to do the same thing after the pg does it. Somewhere in there a leader can lead. That can be 1-5. If it comes down to keys then EC needs them to drive the bus. But and I say but he has to be respected on offense from outside the paint. If not, then it’s only his fault for being pulled and or not getting the “deserved “ amount of playing time. No hurt feelings or confidence excuses this year. Put your big boy panties on and ball. WE HAVE TO HAVE HIM imo.

Yeah, the semantics we tend to use is the "keys to the sportscar", I prefer the football analogy of the basketball PG should be the same as the QB in football. Typically, in football the RBs, the WRs, the TEs score more than the QB, but the QB does scorer at critical times, like QB sneaks close to the goal line or on runs that catch the opposing defense by surprise. IN football today we have one of if not the best tail backs in college but now it is Conner Harell tasked with calling the plays, making the decision to hand it to O or not, tasked with getting the ball to those WRs and TEs. Keeping it and making a play on his own should be a surprise, in a mode of what I will call take it if they are willing to give it to you, basically him being opportunistic based on good decision making. We can't have WRs doing that, we can't have O doing that, we need our QB doing that. EVERYONE else plays their role.

That is a PG in basketball to me, the guys that sets things up, the players, the average as well as the star players play their role, JWit is a role player, RJ has to as well be a role player. It is not accident that the better a player executes his role the more productive he becomes, Dean would have been glad to tell you just that. That doesn't mean my PG does not score, it doesn't mean my PG does not take jumpers at times, if it is there and you are open and feel the shot take it by all means. I don't need, I don't really want for most of our teams for my PG to be a volume shot taker, I need him to be an efficient shot maker. I need my PG to find his mates in positions where they have efficient shots, for me that is job 1.

Last season, who had the keys, it was RJ, not Cadeau, season before that who had the keys, it wasn't RJ, it was Caleb, season before that it was some strange mix between Caleb and RJ. IT has been more our 2 guard running things than our PG and the 2 guard that was our highest volume shot taker. If you have your 2 guard trying to be the floor leader and your PG as a follower to that lead then you do not really have a PG. Just as if you go into a football season, like we just have, and feel you have 2 QBs the conventional wisdom says you do not have a starter level QB.

Dean's approach was that every member of his team, be it MJ or who ever else, they were ALL role players, they were expected to play their roles as close to perfection as could be expected in sports, they were not asked nor were they taught to play someone else's role because when you did you were not 100% focused on your own role, you were short changing your role and that has a domino effect on the whole team. Basketball, at every level now days wants no defined positions, wants the roles totally blurred. Every shooting guard wants to be a PG, every power forward wants to be a shooting guard. Now days you see way to much guy with the ball dancing around wasting time trying to figure out what to do rather than already knowing, do many actions that have no purpose.

 

[superstar57]

We win with solid PG play, and team basketball. RJ should still be lethal, it may be allot to ask, but he needs to shoot 40% from three and 50% overall. Jackson will need be able to score without playing one on one basketball. Seth and Withers cannot have bad games on the same night, and Washington needs to stay out of foul trouble and average close to a double double.

EC is the key to everything, if he can't hit wide open jump shots we are in serious trouble. He has to be respected from the outside for us to be a good team 18-22 wins. Washington is a good player, but isn't great until this point. EC can get him easy shots, but in order to get him consistently scoring double figures EC has got to provide him with space with hitting his open shots, his drives and passing will benefit Washington the most.

Jackson is our Ace card this year, he is a freshman so I understand he will have some tough games, but by mid season he has to be playing like a lottery pick, I am not concerned about his offense, I am skeptical about how he looks on defense in the college game.

Fast pace and not playing isolation basketball, and we could scare any team in America.