Dave, I believe you answered your own question at the top of your post. Nobody wants him to stay 4 more than I, but I believe we would all trade his senior season for a Natty, and say "thank you" as he walked out the door...
Joel Berry and the NBA ?
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Well, I too would take JB in a heartbeat, but Fox has that eye-catching size and athleticism that screams NBA upside and thus he can likely be OAD unless he sh**s the bed this coming season. And he may well turn out to be a fine NBA player --- but that of course remains to be seen....
Thats very true, and it seems they tend to miss more on big guys rather than guards
That is the point I have been trying to make gary, it isn't as much as it should be about actual college game production as it is about perceived upside potential and they see that in guys that are long for their position.
The NBA makes odd decisions IMO, they seem to want wings to be PGs, forwards to be wings, don't really seem to want a center but they will line up to draft one in the lotto?
Well, yeah, although it's not mutually exclusive --- it's more like two separate categories: 1. The guys drafted on little more than potential because they look good on the hoof (e.g., Jalen Brown) and then 2. those who went to college and proved they can play (Buddy Hield, Brice Johnson).
Fox has a chance to be in the first category while JB will be in the second... but there's absolutely no guarantee one will turn out better than the other.
Since before he got here Joel was being compared with Shane Larkin. Similar size. Similar style.
Larkin was drafted #18 as a soph.
It might be helpful to look at some differences to see where Joel needs to improve to get drafted in the first round.
1. That year's Miami team won the ACC regular season AND Tournament. So it will help if UNC does well there. Not entirely up to Joel, but it doesn't hurt a PG's stature to be the guy who ran a team that won championships.
2. Larkin was 1st team All-ACC. Joel could do that. And, obviously, that would help.
3. Larkin was also on the All-ACC Defensive team. Joel's D improved a lot as a soph. If he can ratchet it up another notch or 2, that would help. He has the strength but still struggled some getting through screens and keeping up with his man last season.
4. Larkin shot better from 2 and 3. .538 and .406, respectively vs .495 and .382 for Joel. Better, but not all that much better. Certainly within reach for Joel.
5. As a soph, there was still uncertainty about how much upside Larkin had. Upside potential (real or imagined) helps get you drafted higher. The longer you stay, the less beneficial uncertainty there is. Think McAdoo. Joel can't do anything about that. He'll be a junior and he'll be running the show, not playing in anyone else's shadow. So he just needs to nail the requirements.
Larkin was drafted #18 as a soph.
It might be helpful to look at some differences to see where Joel needs to improve to get drafted in the first round.
1. That year's Miami team won the ACC regular season AND Tournament. So it will help if UNC does well there. Not entirely up to Joel, but it doesn't hurt a PG's stature to be the guy who ran a team that won championships.
2. Larkin was 1st team All-ACC. Joel could do that. And, obviously, that would help.
3. Larkin was also on the All-ACC Defensive team. Joel's D improved a lot as a soph. If he can ratchet it up another notch or 2, that would help. He has the strength but still struggled some getting through screens and keeping up with his man last season.
4. Larkin shot better from 2 and 3. .538 and .406, respectively vs .495 and .382 for Joel. Better, but not all that much better. Certainly within reach for Joel.
5. As a soph, there was still uncertainty about how much upside Larkin had. Upside potential (real or imagined) helps get you drafted higher. The longer you stay, the less beneficial uncertainty there is. Think McAdoo. Joel can't do anything about that. He'll be a junior and he'll be running the show, not playing in anyone else's shadow. So he just needs to nail the requirements.
Maybe not really any taller than Larkin.... But Berry has more length and is easily 20-25 lbs bigger than Larkin was at the same stage. Berry is built more like a Kyle Lowry or Ty Lawson. Larkin was maybe 175 when he was drafted with short arms. Berry has greater defensive potential.
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Dave, I believe you answered your own question at the top of your post. Nobody wants him to stay 4 more than I, but I believe we would all trade his senior season for a Natty, and say "thank you" as he walked out the door...
Now look you MOE-ron (I have been waiting to use that on ya in good fun
We started discussing Joel and the next draft and you were explaining to me that Joel was a first round lock because he would get the hype by being a leading candidate for the Cousy. And now it is "if" he wins the Cousy or "if" we win the natty? Fells about time for me to drop the mike on ya! LOL (you better freakin realize I am joshing with ya, you stooge)! LOL
For a natty? For a natty I would trade em ALL leaving after next season! LOL Now seriously, gary you know how much I respect Joel and love him as an ambassador for our program. If Joel had played his freshman season last season rather than being a soph, had he entered this past draft which was a weak draft over all, then yeah, I think he would have had a shot at the first round but the next draft is not nearly as weak and IMO it is in particular strong for guards, both 1s & 2s that are likely to be NBA PGs.
It is IMO just the wrong draft and he gets a demerit for being a Jr next season rather than being a freshman and now questions about how much potential is left?
All true except that IMO JB is better defensively than Larkin, and no, he did not struggle keeping up with his man. The issues (as we've covered here and Roy addressed) were in communication and responsibilities from his teammates from behind on ball screens, something that mostly got fixed as the season went on.
Arright... first off you are not allowed to use Animal House references in Stooge metaphors --- I am disappointed at your comic transgressionNow look you MOE-ron (I have been waiting to use that on ya in good fun
We started discussing Joel and the next draft and you were explaining to me that Joel was a first round lock because he would get the hype by being a leading candidate for the Cousy. And now it is "if" he wins the Cousy or "if" we win the natty? Fells about time for me to drop the mike on ya! LOL (you better freakin realize I am joshing with ya, you stooge)! LOL
For a natty? For a natty I would trade em ALL leaving after next season! LOL Now seriously, gary you know how much I respect Joel and love him as an ambassador for our program. If Joel had played his freshman season last season rather than being a soph, had he entered this past draft which was a weak draft over all, then yeah, I think he would have had a shot at the first round but the next draft is not nearly as weak and IMO it is in particular strong for guards, both 1s & 2s that are likely to be NBA PGs.
It is IMO just the wrong draft and he gets a demerit for being a Jr next season rather than being a freshman and now questions about how much potential is left?
Seriously though, all nattys are "ifs". Hell, JB could have a stellar all-everything season and we could come up short (jeez, that hurts even typing it) again, and he might decide to stay to finish the mission. No one knows and again, unlike JJ there isn't any set plan in place as of yet.
And of course you and I are on the same page about wasting some of his freshman season, but whatever, that's over and done --- we've at least got the Nasty Dog for one more season and I intend to enjoy the sh** out of it! If we get another, well... I'll take it,
So this whole thread I suppose comes down to two questions:
Could he go and get drafted? Absolutely no doubt, and if he has the season may of us anticipate, yes, in the 1st round.
Will he go? That one as far as I can guess likely depends on the outcome of the coming season as far as his goals he wants to achieve at UNC.
Howz that for definitive?
Stooges are the greatest comedy team of all time and Animal House is the greatest comedic movie of all time. Why is that a transgression? I can picture The Stooges starring in Animal House.Arright... first off you are not allowed to use Animal House references in Stooge metaphors --- I am disappointed at your comic transgression
Seriously though, all nattys are "ifs". Hell, JB could have a stellar all-everything season and we could come up short (jeez, that hurts even typing it) again, and he might decide to stay to finish the mission. No one knows and again, unlike JJ there isn't any set plan in place as of yet.
And of course you and I are on the same page about wasting some of his freshman season, but whatever, that's over and done --- we've at least got the Nasty Dog for one more season and I intend to enjoy the sh** out of it! If we get another, well... I'll take it,
So this whole thread I suppose comes down to two questions:
Could he go and get drafted? Absolutely no doubt, and if he has the season may of us anticipate, yes, in the 1st round.
Will he go? That one as far as I can guess likely depends on the outcome of the coming season as far as his goals he wants to achieve at UNC.
Howz that for definitive?
One must use caution in meshing genres. The classic slapstick masters inform yet remain distinct from the archetypal college-anarchy vehicle (insert faux British accent and extended pinky whilst sipping tea).
Dave, I believe you answered your own question at the top of your post. Nobody wants him to stay 4 more than I, but I believe we would all trade his senior season for a Natty, and say "thank you" as he walked out the door...
TRUTH!
One thing I think we can all agree on, DERN GLAD we have him running the point and would LOVE for him to do so his Sr season. But that Natty would sure make it all worth while to see him go. Hoping he has the same bump from 3 that Ty had his Jr season. That would be huge.
Arright... first off you are not allowed to use Animal House references in Stooge metaphors --- I am disappointed at your comic transgression
Seriously though, all nattys are "ifs". Hell, JB could have a stellar all-everything season and we could come up short (jeez, that hurts even typing it) again, and he might decide to stay to finish the mission. No one knows and again, unlike JJ there isn't any set plan in place as of yet.
And of course you and I are on the same page about wasting some of his freshman season, but whatever, that's over and done --- we've at least got the Nasty Dog for one more season and I intend to enjoy the sh** out of it! If we get another, well... I'll take it,
So this whole thread I suppose comes down to two questions:
Could he go and get drafted? Absolutely no doubt, and if he has the season may of us anticipate, yes, in the 1st round.
Will he go? That one as far as I can guess likely depends on the outcome of the coming season as far as his goals he wants to achieve at UNC.
Howz that for definitive?
Arright... first off you are not allowed to use Animal House references in Stooge metaphors --- I am disappointed at your comic transgression
Seriously though, all nattys are "ifs". Hell, JB could have a stellar all-everything season and we could come up short (jeez, that hurts even typing it) again, and he might decide to stay to finish the mission. No one knows and again, unlike JJ there isn't any set plan in place as of yet.
And of course you and I are on the same page about wasting some of his freshman season, but whatever, that's over and done --- we've at least got the Nasty Dog for one more season and I intend to enjoy the sh** out of it! If we get another, well... I'll take it,
So this whole thread I suppose comes down to two questions:
Could he go and get drafted? Absolutely no doubt, and if he has the season may of us anticipate, yes, in the 1st round.
Will he go? That one as far as I can guess likely depends on the outcome of the coming season as far as his goals he wants to achieve at UNC.
Howz that for definitive?
First, I utilized the cross over ability of comedic metaphors, consider it a knee breaking comedic cross over!
Seriously gary, for me this comes down to where Joel would be drafted if he played next season like he played the last half and thru the post season of last season, which I do expect. And the truth is none of us really can know at this point.
I do think, if we have at least 1 guy step up strong and claim the 2 guard spot and if we get solid front court play, both things I actually expect to happen, I do think we are final 4 good. And as you know, when you get to the final 4, all bets are off cause crazy stuff happens in the final 4.
Going in to last season, this time last year, we had IMO more questions that needed to be answered than we do this coming season. While you and I were solid on Joel it was a legit question of what kind of PG play we would get, I don't think that is any longer a concern. Brice, would he be able to stay on the floor and not commit the dumb fouls that had limited him, well we have similar question about Hicks, sure liked the answers we got from Brice, similar maybe this season for Hicks? There were questions about what meeks would do due to his fade the season before, still have some of those questions but I think we all expect more as a senior.
One area we didn't question going in to last season was our shooting from the 2 IF Marcus played the 2, but Marcus got mired in a near season long slump and Britt's shooting trailed off as well so maybe there were questions there that we didn't realize. The depth behind Marcus and Britt was questionable and this coming season, no Marcus but the depth is much deeper. And I don't think we really questioned Jackson going in to last season but he as well slumped for a good part of the season, I think we are all expecting more from him this season, I'm saying 2 better answers to questions we did not expect last season, better answers now than then. Finally, we kinda knew that Hicks would be a solid 6th man going in to last season, the fouls limited that a lot, maybe to much but he was ACC 6th man of the year, how much less is that answer now with Tony, maybe none at all, maybe better?
Even leadership was a bit more of a question going in to last season, Marcus was as expected a very strong senior leader, Brice became one, and maybe more off the court but so did Joel James. But one of the questions going in to last season was how much solid leadership will this team get, well going in to this season I think we can all feel great about Joel berry and Theo as very strong leaders and I think our seniors will work well with those strong under class man leaders.
My point, IMO we have fewer questions than last season at the same point of the year and I think better potentials answers than we did last season. Means IMO, we are final 4 good and if the shooters we now have step up, we could be better this season than last season and we were pretty darn good last season. Is this season a case of our knocking on the door last season and deciding to kick it down this season, maybe!
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