JP Tokoto

[babe7671]

I've recently seen quite a few threads arguing about Tokoto as a player and how he effects the team. Instead of replying to each I decided to start my own thread with my opinion of his play along with some stats to support my opinion. Let's remember to keep it respectful guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in the end we are all still pulling for the same team!

To start I'd like to say that I think JP could have one of the most unique skill sets in all of the NCAA if he used them correctly. However (and unfortunately), I do not think he plays the game how he should. As far as intangibles go, he plays too high risk/ high reward for the shooting guard/small forward position (usually you would only want a point guard turning the ball over more than once or twice a game). One game he will dish 5 or 6 beautiful assists to no turnovers. Then the next game he has 4 or 5 egregious turnovers with no assists. This isn't really the consistency that you need from a one dimensional player that cannot shoot beyond 10-12 feet. The athleticism is there, but I think he doesn't have a good enough first step to beat a defense into the paint. His first slow step also makes it difficult for him to stop an opposing player from driving the paint when he is on defense (more on that below).

Offensively, I think we can all agree that beyond 10-12 feet Tokoto is completely ineffective. The jump shot is almost painful to watch as he awkwardly releases the ball. Driving to the basket is better, but not by much. I've seen one too many times where Tokoto drives and throws up an ugly shot as he falls AWAY from the basket. How many times have I begged JP through my TV to go to the basket and draw a foul??? Too many to count... Once or twice a game Tokoto will get a huge breakaway dunk to garner the boys some momentum. Which makes it almost all the more frustrating why he can't use his unbelievable athleticism to finish at the rim from a half court set.

Defensively (I'm going to lose quite a few people here), I think he is one of the more overrated players in the country. Instead of arguing with theoretical scenarios I'll just list the stats of the players he was charged with "shutting down" from the past 5 games.
-Sam Dekker (Wisconsin; granted Dekker has been on fire, an assignment is an assignment no matter how you carve it up): 23 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
-Michael Qualls (Arkansas): 27 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists
-Wesley Saunders (Harvard): 26 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists
-Pat Connaughton (Notre Dame): 20 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
-Malcolm Brogden (Virginia): 25 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
*An interesting side note here, Brogden took over for UVA and almost sunk UNC in the final 5 minutes of the ACC semi-finals. He scored 12 straight points until Tokoto injured himself on offense and Brice Johnson finally stopped Brogden 2 plays in a row on defense to seal the game.

Overall, I love the whole team and I am appreciative for the work JP has put in to be where he is today. I just tend to think he is very overrated defensively and more of a liability than an asset offensively. He reminds me a lot of a downgraded Jackie Manuel (who, in my opinion, is one of the best defensive players to come through UNC). I think Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram would easily find a place in the starting lineup over him by the 10th game of next season if we were lucky enough to land one of them.




This post was edited on 3/29 9:04 PM by babe7671

 

[redyns54]

I tend to agree with you. Fantastic athlete. Sometimes amazing in the open court. But he actually seemed to take a step backwards this year. Sometimes just appeared lost on defense. Maybe he just has periods where he loses focus. Offensively, it seemed he used to have a fairly consistent 15 foot jumper. Seems that is a thing of the past. If he can't get to the rim, his offensive game is shaky at best. Hopefully he will get some of those problem ironed out before next seasonm

 

[Blue2010]

JP is a liability on the offensive side of the ball. I think he winds up being the 6th man next year, more of an "energy guy" off the bench.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

Originally posted by babe7671:
I've recently seen quite a few threads arguing about Tokoto as a player and how he effects the team. Instead of replying to each I decided to start my own thread with my opinion of his play along with some stats to support my opinion. Let's remember to keep it respectful guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in the end we are all still pulling for the same team!

To start I'd like to say that I think JP could have one of the most unique skill sets in all of the NCAA if he used them correctly. However (and unfortunately), I do not think he plays the game how he should. As far as intangibles go, he plays too high risk/ high reward for the shooting guard/small forward position (usually you would only want a point guard turning the ball over more than once or twice a game). One game he will dish 5 or 6 beautiful assists to no turnovers. Then the next game he has 4 or 5 egregious turnovers with no assists. This isn't really the consistency that you need from a one dimensional player that cannot shoot beyond 10-12 feet. The athleticism is there, but I think he doesn't have a good enough first step to beat a defense into the paint. His first slow step also makes it difficult for him to stop an opposing player from driving the paint when he is on defense (more on that below).

Offensively, I think we can all agree that beyond 10-12 feet Tokoto is completely ineffective. The jump shot is almost painful to watch as he awkwardly releases the ball. Driving to the basket is better, but not by much. I've seen one too many times where Tokoto drives and throws up an ugly shot as he falls AWAY from the basket. How many times have I begged JP through my TV to go to the basket and draw a foul??? Too many to count... Once or twice a game Tokoto will get a huge breakaway dunk to garner the boys some momentum. Which makes it almost all the more frustrating why he can't use his unbelievable athleticism to finish at the rim from a half court set.

Defensively (I'm going to lose quite a few people here), I think he is one of the more overrated players in the country. Instead of arguing with theoretical scenarios I'll just list the stats of the players he was charged with "shutting down" from the past 5 games.
-Sam Dekker (Wisconsin; granted Dekker has been on fire, an assignment is an assignment no matter how you carve it up): 23 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
-Michael Qualls (Arkansas): 27 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists
-Wesley Saunders (Harvard): 26 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists
-Pat Connaughton (Notre Dame): 20 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
-Malcolm Brogden (Virginia): 25 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
*An interesting side note here, Brogden took over for UVA and almost sunk UNC in the final 5 minutes of the ACC semi-finals. He scored 12 straight points until Tokoto injured himself on offense and Brice Johnson finally stopped Brogden 2 plays in a row on defense to seal the game.

Overall, I love the whole team and I am appreciative for the work JP has put in to be where he is today. I just tend to think he is very overrated defensively and more of a liability than an asset offensively. He reminds me a lot of a downgraded Jackie Manuel (who, in my opinion, is one of the best defensive players to come through UNC). I think Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram would easily find a place in the starting lineup over him by the 10th game of next season if we were lucky enough to land one of them.




This post was edited on 3/29 9:04 PM by babe7671

I was completely ready to disagree with you, but you sold me on the late season stats against the better players of the Heels oppositions , and those stats are pretty bad for a guy that is considered a great defender, his grade for the year is clearly a C at best..

 

[franklin street]

i'm a little tired of hearing how he's the best athlete on the floor.
i'd like to see the best basketball player on the floor.

 

[ChiShankCity]

I do think part of it is coaching. We have a tendency to try to develop 17 foot jumpers with awful shooters. When it was clear Strickland couldn't hit from 3, he became a mid range heavy shooter and that's the worst shot in basketball. It's a low percentage shot and it's the most difficult 2 point shot because it's 1 or 2 steps shorter than the 3pt shot. JP needs to be an inside 13 feet shooter and post up smaller defenders because he can just elevate over them. But Roy doesn't really iso his SF in the post.

If he played smart and was a good decision maker, I'd actually try him out as a PG. He's a pretty good playmaker and could be a huge help against pressing teams due to his size.

 

[scoutsupreme]

Its a simple coaching adjustment....tell him to take the ball to the hoop strong and score or get fouled or sit your ass on the bench.

 

[imajericho]

Tokoto lacks burst.

He plays too slow because he thinks too much. You can see this in his slow gliding dribbles. A lot of his turnovers are overthinking.

If he shut his brain off and just went with what is in front of him he could be a monster.

 

[gary-7]

Originally posted by redyns54:
I tend to agree with you. Fantastic athlete. Sometimes amazing in the open court. But he actually seemed to take a step backwards this year. Sometimes just appeared lost on defense. Maybe he just has periods where he loses focus. Offensively, it seemed he used to have a fairly consistent 15 foot jumper. Seems that is a thing of the past. If he can't get to the rim, his offensive game is shaky at best. Hopefully he will get some of those problem ironed out before next seasonm

I wasn't going to get involved ITT, but you made an interesting observation that I've noticed as well. On offense it manifests in the lazy passes or dicking around with ball on the perimeter and stalling the flow, as well as sometimes takng incredibly poorly chosen shots. We saw it on defense against Wisky where he would just lose track of Dekker or not execute an easy block-out and the next thing you know there would be an offensive rebound or put-back.

It may not seem so, since I'm largely responsible for the "Good-JP"/"Bad-JP" meme on here, but as a fan, Tokoto was my "favorite" coming in. Over the years I've pulled especially hard for a few sometimes frustrating players who may not necessarily be the most accomplished but have tremendous athleticism and/or potential. Guys like Kevin Madden, Pat Sullivan, Reyshawn Terry come to mind. They almost always prove to be great cogs in the machine when they play well but drive you absolutely crazy when they don't. JP certainly fits that profile.

There's no doubt of his potential. He literally has all-world hops (we're talking Vince Carter hops here). Hell, just on those NCAA practice videos JP pulled off 2 dunks that were better than anything in the NBA dunk contest in pretty much any year. But as Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations". Right now that axiom would consist of not trying to force his game on offense and keeping his head in the game at all times on both ends. Attacking the rim is his best weapon, and beyond that he needs to take care in his shot selection and not let the ball "stick to his hands" in our motion offense.

Finally, I posted this before: The "Bad-JP" traits were partially enabled by playing so much with only one true Guard on the floor this season. When he becomes your second ball-handler, you might get some assists out of him but the trade-offs are not necessarily worth it.

 

[32TheEnigma]

JP's problem is very simply the fact that he is a long gait runner. If there was no half court line, he'd be an All American and folks would be talking about him as the next MJ. The issue he has is he is not able to shorten his steps in a half court set and his feet often get stuck when he attempts to drive, usually resulting in having to pick up his dribble earlier and settling for a jumper or either passing the ball altogether. Bullock suffered (suffers) from the same issue. It he had shorter/choppier steps (ala Jordan) he would be able to drive betweens seams in the defense and get to the basket. It's a footwork issue that is dang near impossible to fix after HS. It is what it is.
This post was edited on 3/30 1:02 AM by 32TheEnigma

 

[TarHeaven]

^ "next MJ" ? you lost me there.

 

[Ozheelfan]

Originally posted by gary-7:
................

Finally, I posted this before: The "Bad-JP" traits were partially enabled by playing so much with only one true Guard on the floor this season. When he becomes your second ball-handler, you might get some assists out of him but the trade-offs are not necessarily worth it.

Gary, I think you've answered a huge chunk of JP's problems this year - and I'd sum it up that he's been caught in a squeeze at the 3 spot with Justin Jackson.

As I see it, Tokoto didn't just end up as the defacto shooting guard. With Marcus's foot issues and the heavy defense Paige got from his pre-season hype, JP often ended up as the defacto point guard! And despite some of the truly over-optimistic posts above, JP is not a floor general. Yes, he can be a facilitator, yes he can make the extra pass to get the good shot, but he is not a point guard.

Too often this season at the offensive end JP had to come back to the top of the key to take the ball while Marcus was drowning in defenders. It was then left up to him to "create" a play or push a pass or (GULP) pull up for a jumper. He rarely had the luxury of running off screens, cutting to the hoop to receive a pass, or sliding baseline for a back door cut. All this because the best point guard on the team was on the bench or injured.

All that stems from Justin starting at #3 and Berry starting on the bench. Roy quite easily could have shared most of JP and Justin's minutes at 3, giving each player the chance to shine. But that would have meant starting Berry and that didn't happen.

Now as for his defence, Tokoto does have a tendency to drift, but so do the centres! To defend hard on the perimeter and take risks you need to know there's someone who's got your back and the Heels do not have a rim protector. It's no excuse for getting consistently beaten off the dribble, but he was at times on a "hiding to nothing"

Lastly, some mid season comments from Marcus had me worried there were attitude issues. Interestingly, Marcus's comments came a week or so after a Go Heels profile on JP where he said he was conscious of his assist numbers and even kept track of them during games. Maybe sometime during this season JP took his eyes off the game in favour of the box score? Playing at #3 he may not have worried about that and just enjoyed being on the DSPN top 10 every week or so.

 

[imajericho]

Originally posted by babe7671:
I've recently seen quite a few threads arguing about Tokoto as a player and how he effects the team. Instead of replying to each I decided to start my own thread with my opinion of his play along with some stats to support my opinion. Let's remember to keep it respectful guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in the end we are all still pulling for the same team!

To start I'd like to say that I think JP could have one of the most unique skill sets in all of the NCAA if he used them correctly. However (and unfortunately), I do not think he plays the game how he should. As far as intangibles go, he plays too high risk/ high reward for the shooting guard/small forward position (usually you would only want a point guard turning the ball over more than once or twice a game). One game he will dish 5 or 6 beautiful assists to no turnovers. Then the next game he has 4 or 5 egregious turnovers with no assists. This isn't really the consistency that you need from a one dimensional player that cannot shoot beyond 10-12 feet. The athleticism is there, but I think he doesn't have a good enough first step to beat a defense into the paint. His first slow step also makes it difficult for him to stop an opposing player from driving the paint when he is on defense (more on that below).

Offensively, I think we can all agree that beyond 10-12 feet Tokoto is completely ineffective. The jump shot is almost painful to watch as he awkwardly releases the ball. Driving to the basket is better, but not by much. I've seen one too many times where Tokoto drives and throws up an ugly shot as he falls AWAY from the basket. How many times have I begged JP through my TV to go to the basket and draw a foul??? Too many to count... Once or twice a game Tokoto will get a huge breakaway dunk to garner the boys some momentum. Which makes it almost all the more frustrating why he can't use his unbelievable athleticism to finish at the rim from a half court set.

Defensively (I'm going to lose quite a few people here), I think he is one of the more overrated players in the country. Instead of arguing with theoretical scenarios I'll just list the stats of the players he was charged with "shutting down" from the past 5 games.
-Sam Dekker (Wisconsin; granted Dekker has been on fire, an assignment is an assignment no matter how you carve it up): 23 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
-Michael Qualls (Arkansas): 27 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists
-Wesley Saunders (Harvard): 26 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists
-Pat Connaughton (Notre Dame): 20 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
-Malcolm Brogden (Virginia): 25 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
*An interesting side note here, Brogden took over for UVA and almost sunk UNC in the final 5 minutes of the ACC semi-finals. He scored 12 straight points until Tokoto injured himself on offense and Brice Johnson finally stopped Brogden 2 plays in a row on defense to seal the game.

Overall, I love the whole team and I am appreciative for the work JP has put in to be where he is today. I just tend to think he is very overrated defensively and more of a liability than an asset offensively. He reminds me a lot of a downgraded Jackie Manuel (who, in my opinion, is one of the best defensive players to come through UNC). I think Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram would easily find a place in the starting lineup over him by the 10th game of next season if we were lucky enough to land one of them.




This post was edited on 3/29 9:04 PM by babe7671

I brought this up with the exact same points about who he covered before the Arkansas game.


That said, JP does do a good job at limiting them from making FGs.

I think your analysis failed to mention that. Many of them shot 30% or lower from the field.

HOWEVER, the fact they are still scoring so many points rests on the foul line. JP fails to stay in front of his opponent a lot which lets them into the lane where he needs help defense and usually leaves bad defensive position which in turn causes fouls.

He is great when he can stay in front of the player. However, most simply just take him off the drive. He lacks burst.

 

[DSouthr]

Originally posted by Ozheelfan:

Originally posted by gary-7:
................

Finally, I posted this before: The "Bad-JP" traits were partially enabled by playing so much with only one true Guard on the floor this season. When he becomes your second ball-handler, you might get some assists out of him but the trade-offs are not necessarily worth it.

Gary, I think you've answered a huge chunk of JP's problems this year - and I'd sum it up that he's been caught in a squeeze at the 3 spot with Justin Jackson.

As I see it, Tokoto didn't just end up as the defacto shooting guard. With Marcus's foot issues and the heavy defense Paige got from his pre-season hype, JP often ended up as the defacto point guard! And despite some of the truly over-optimistic posts above, JP is not a floor general. Yes, he can be a facilitator, yes he can make the extra pass to get the good shot, but he is not a point guard.

Too often this season at the offensive end JP had to come back to the top of the key to take the ball while Marcus was drowning in defenders. It was then left up to him to "create" a play or push a pass or (GULP) pull up for a jumper. He rarely had the luxury of running off screens, cutting to the hoop to receive a pass, or sliding baseline for a back door cut. All this because the best point guard on the team was on the bench or injured.

All that stems from Justin starting at #3 and Berry starting on the bench. Roy quite easily could have shared most of JP and Justin's minutes at 3, giving each player the chance to shine. But that would have meant starting Berry and that didn't happen.

Now as for his defence, Tokoto does have a tendency to drift, but so do the centres! To defend hard on the perimeter and take risks you need to know there's someone who's got your back and the Heels do not have a rim protector. It's no excuse for getting consistently beaten off the dribble, but he was at times on a "hiding to nothing"

Lastly, some mid season comments from Marcus had me worried there were attitude issues. Interestingly, Marcus's comments came a week or so after a Go Heels profile on JP where he said he was conscious of his assist numbers and even kept track of them during games. Maybe sometime during this season JP took his eyes off the game in favour of the box score? Playing at #3 he may not have worried about that and just enjoyed being on the DSPN top 10 every week or so.

Well thank goodness, reading this thread I was afraid no one got it but Oz saved this one for me. Geez guys, so have ya finally figured out that JP is not a PG, have ya finally figured out that wings should not be expected to do the things that a PG is expected to? We pretty much started every game this season without a PG because paige had to spend so much time looking for his shot the PG role fell defacto to JP. Personally I felt JP payed remarkabally well considering he was playing so far outside of his natural position.

Clearly, information we already had, JP is not a great jump shooter from distance, water is wet to fellas, if we are speaking of things we already knew. I especially love the one post that said mid-range shots are bad, JP shouldn't shoot mid-ranage shots because they are bad (speaking in the voice of Mr Macky from South park) mmmK, so what JP should do is shoot more midrange jump shots, mmmk? Ahhhh, I would think if ya already know JP struggles to shoot beyound the arch (what was he, like 34.8% or so) that maybe ya want him taking those closer in shots from midrange, which he was more accurate with?

On the defensive end, llets see if we can agree on easy things to realize, like JP was the guy tasked with defending the opposing teams most dangerous scoring threat, hopefully that will cause no one to disagree. I wowuld hope that we could also agree that Roy did not do a lot of junk defenses, heck he had to be pulled kicking & screaming to playing some zone, Roy prefers and insistes we play his man defense that features funnelling the offensive guy in to traps and into shot blockers and a main feature of that defense is help. I would hope it comes as no shock that our back court and specifically I am talking about Paige & Britt and add in the freshman Jackson were anything but steller defenders this season. I felt Jackson vastly improved in this area as the season progressed but much of the season the fact he was a freshman was clear on the defensive end. Pretty sure we can all agree, was very little time JP was in there that he was not plaaying with at least 2 of those teammates. Yeah, JP got caught a lot, got caught a lot looking, got cuaght trying to help but not able to recover back in time, other coaches are pretty smart fellas to guys. Lets see, wonder what ya get when you have JP having to check the opposing teams greatest outside threat yet having to keep one eye out to help his weaker defending team mates? Anyone know, anyone suspect they know, OZ does, anyone else?

I know, to suggest Marcus is not great at any aspect of the game is not acceptable but the fact is Marcus was not a great defender this season, his man blew by him a lot and that forced a ton of help. Now was that because Marcus had to work so hard against junk defenses geared to stop him that he rested a little bit on defense, how much a factor were his injuries, how much of it was marcus just not being the most physically strong guy out there??? All factors IMO but I am talking more about the results than reasons for those results but if Marcus or Britt have their man blowing past them then help defense snaps in meaning someone leaves their man to help on someone else's man and that scrambles every thing and other coaches have watched enough game film to know what happens from there but the end result is your best peremeter scorer tend to find wide open looks and who is it again that JP draws to defend, the other teams best scoring threat?

Basketball fans are an amazzing breed, gurantee ya this thread would not exist if JP were a knock down jump shooter but a weak defender. If JP scored 20pts a game and most of it from sweet jumpers beyound the arch no one would talk about his defense even if it were poor. My point is we look at a player's worth as being about his ability to score, it is as if that were the only aspect of the game that matters at all. Sure, we will take the stat sheet after the game and hang a kid for it if the kid doesn't score a ton & god forbid his man score a lot then who cares what actually happened in that game that dictated those results, we don't care why, we just look at the ball going in, we watch the ball and what happens off the ball doesn't seem to matter? Problem is it is that stuff that happens off the ball that allows the guy to stick the ball in the basket or not most times.

Amazing, we finally get berry in th egames more and all the sudden things begin to click, Berry just happens to be the best PG defender we have, all the sudden after knocking off some freshman mistakes that you expect from a frosh playing PG for UNC, we are a better team over all. JP is not turning th eball over as much because he is not trying to play the point as much. But JP has spent the season having to help nearly every trip down, he is still acclimated to have to help off his man and yet his man is the key guy for the other team. Tuff spot for the kid, I take issue to this thread because it appears to be looking for a scape goat and making that scape goat JP and IMO that is off, IMO that is way way off.

Look, Roy took a risk early season, he elected to go big rather than play a more conventional lineup and he did so to get Jackson on the floor more. I don't think that risk played out as well for this season, it may play out better for next season in that Jackson got so much game experience this season but I preferred and said it many times that we go early on to Berry with Marcus & JP because guards are just so important in todays game, on both ends of the floor. It was what, going in to the second half slate of ACC games before we started to invest PT in Joel, imagine if we had done that early season, a lot of the domino's we saw fall would have fallen different, maybe not as well but maybe they would have fallen in an even better pattern. I have always believed in players play better when they are allowed to play their natural position and that isn't always the position they want to play, like Marcus as a PG when he is actually much more a 2 guard than a point.

 

[WoadBlue]

Originally posted by imajericho:

Originally posted by babe7671:
I've recently seen quite a few threads arguing about Tokoto as a player and how he effects the team. Instead of replying to each I decided to start my own thread with my opinion of his play along with some stats to support my opinion. Let's remember to keep it respectful guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in the end we are all still pulling for the same team!

To start I'd like to say that I think JP could have one of the most unique skill sets in all of the NCAA if he used them correctly. However (and unfortunately), I do not think he plays the game how he should. As far as intangibles go, he plays too high risk/ high reward for the shooting guard/small forward position (usually you would only want a point guard turning the ball over more than once or twice a game). One game he will dish 5 or 6 beautiful assists to no turnovers. Then the next game he has 4 or 5 egregious turnovers with no assists. This isn't really the consistency that you need from a one dimensional player that cannot shoot beyond 10-12 feet. The athleticism is there, but I think he doesn't have a good enough first step to beat a defense into the paint. His first slow step also makes it difficult for him to stop an opposing player from driving the paint when he is on defense (more on that below).

Offensively, I think we can all agree that beyond 10-12 feet Tokoto is completely ineffective. The jump shot is almost painful to watch as he awkwardly releases the ball. Driving to the basket is better, but not by much. I've seen one too many times where Tokoto drives and throws up an ugly shot as he falls AWAY from the basket. How many times have I begged JP through my TV to go to the basket and draw a foul??? Too many to count... Once or twice a game Tokoto will get a huge breakaway dunk to garner the boys some momentum. Which makes it almost all the more frustrating why he can't use his unbelievable athleticism to finish at the rim from a half court set.

Defensively (I'm going to lose quite a few people here), I think he is one of the more overrated players in the country. Instead of arguing with theoretical scenarios I'll just list the stats of the players he was charged with "shutting down" from the past 5 games.
-Sam Dekker (Wisconsin; granted Dekker has been on fire, an assignment is an assignment no matter how you carve it up): 23 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
-Michael Qualls (Arkansas): 27 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists
-Wesley Saunders (Harvard): 26 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists
-Pat Connaughton (Notre Dame): 20 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
-Malcolm Brogden (Virginia): 25 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist
*An interesting side note here, Brogden took over for UVA and almost sunk UNC in the final 5 minutes of the ACC semi-finals. He scored 12 straight points until Tokoto injured himself on offense and Brice Johnson finally stopped Brogden 2 plays in a row on defense to seal the game.

Overall, I love the whole team and I am appreciative for the work JP has put in to be where he is today. I just tend to think he is very overrated defensively and more of a liability than an asset offensively. He reminds me a lot of a downgraded Jackie Manuel (who, in my opinion, is one of the best defensive players to come through UNC). I think Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram would easily find a place in the starting lineup over him by the 10th game of next season if we were lucky enough to land one of them.




This post was edited on 3/29 9:04 PM by babe7671

I brought this up with the exact same points about who he covered before the Arkansas game.


That said, JP does do a good job at limiting them from making FGs.

I think your analysis failed to mention that. Many of them shot 30% or lower from the field.

HOWEVER, the fact they are still scoring so many points rests on the foul line. JP fails to stay in front of his opponent a lot which lets them into the lane where he needs help defense and usually leaves bad defensive position which in turn causes fouls.

He is great when he can stay in front of the player. However, most simply just take him off the drive. He lacks burst.

That's another way of saying that Tokoto lacks fundamentals. And that, in a nutshell, is his problem. He runs up and down the court really fast, jumping way up high while doing so, but he also is utterly erratic as a player on both ends of the court because he is deficient in fundamentals.

Dean's prime directive was having a team play smart, fundamentally sound team basketball on both ends of the court. Roy's prime directive is to run up and down the court as fast as possible to have the most possessions and get off the most shots.

 

[BillyL]

Originally posted by babe7671:

Overall, I love the whole team and I am appreciative for the work JP has put in to be where he is today. I just tend to think he is very overrated defensively and more of a liability than an asset offensively. He reminds me a lot of a downgraded Jackie Manuel (who, in my opinion, is one of the best defensive players to come through UNC). I think Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram would easily find a place in the starting lineup over him by the 10th game of next season if we were lucky enough to land one of them.

First of all, let me say that I'm one of Jean Pierre's biggest fans.

Because of his long gait/stride I believe Mr. Tokoto gives many UNC fans the opinion that he is just loping down the court and that in turn makes him look as if he was being 'lazy' when going from point A to point B. It's the visual effect of his movements IMO.

Does he try to force passes when he should not . . ? Yes at times he does, and his decision making most definitely needs to improve when he has the ball.

I believe JP has the skills to not only be a tremendous defender, but, a great defender. Is he over-rated . . ? Absolutely not.


I've borrowed some stats from a friend of mine over on the Premi side of this site that I think are pertinent to the discussion of JPT's overall contributions to the team on both offense and defense. More or less, it's just food for thought as I've only seen stats posted in this thread that show how well the man JP was assigned to guard performed. As you can see, I think far too many under-value this young man's contributions to his team.




- 3rd in rebounds per game, at 5.6 (behind Brice and Kennedy)

- 2nd in assists per game, at 4.3 (behind only Marcus, who has 4.5, and in distant 3rd is Justin, with only 2.3)

- 2nd in steals per game, at 1.5 (behind only Marcus, who has 1.7, and in distant 3rd is Brice, with 0.7)

- 2nd in 3pt% (YEP, that is correct) with 37.5% (behind Marcus, at 39.5% and ahead of Nate at 36.6%)

- 3rd in assist:turnover ratio: Marcus 2.33, Joel Berry 2.19, JP 1.92, Justin 1.69, Nate 1.5

 

[keysersosay#1]

Superior athlete who makes way too many bone headed plays I. e. passes

I like JP a lot but he needs to really work on his shot and just smarten up his play

 

[Tru Blu Tar Heel]

The scary thing is JP has all the tools to be uber successful. I'll agree that playing the defacto PG most of the season hindered a LOT of what JP can Do to maximize potential. The long and short of it is he needs to share minutes with Jackson at the 3, slide Marcus to the 2, and start Berry at PG. Hopefully we will see that going into next season.

 

[gary-7]

Dave, you and Oz have added some excellent points.

Many fans indeed don't always get the "help" nature of the Carolina D. Help is not just a luxury, it's essential here. From the first practice on our players are put in a "4-Man Shell" drill where they are taught to force baseline guarding the ball, with the player "one pass away" drilled to step in and help to stymie and/or trap the driver on the baseline, and the player(s) "two passes away" responsible for covering back-side,

Oz is definitely right that our Bigs have had a spotty record this season on ball-side help and JP was made to look bad at times when he was actually doing his job. It is also true that sometimes when JP drifts it is an effort to help when perhaps a teammate has neglected to do so.

And Dave, my brother, you pretty thoroughly summed up the effects of the Guard dilemma that has tested our sanity so often this season. I've been occasionally trashed for saying it, but yes, Roy made a (well-intended) miscalculation with the opening lineup that had ripple effects. I will take just one exception, Marcus is a pretty good defender when his feet aren't killing him, but point well taken: Berry brought tenacious defense to the table along with the obvious offensive boost, and not just on the ball --- the aforementioned help falls on Guards as well, and Berry was willing and able to do just that.

As for JP, he's still my "favorite". I want him to soar and attack and highlight-film dunk and disrupt on the defensive end, but mostly doing things that help, not hurt the team. Who knows? With the differences in the pro game and his redonkulous ($1 to Stuart Scott) athleticism he could well morph into an NBA player, but as for his college game he needs to concentrate on playing to his strengths and not becoming a negative... and that starts with not trying to be a secondary PG and smartening up his shot selection. He doesn't have a bad stroke (if he can keep that damned elbow in) and I don't mind him taking the occasional open 3, but those awkward pull-ups need to stop.

And again, Dave, you nailed it: the more we put our best PG (Berry) and our best 2G (Paige) on the floor together, the more likely JP is to play in his most effective role.

 

[EmJay14]

If JP wants to make serious money, he may need to go talk to Fedora about walking on in the fall.

He just lacks the small things when it comes to basketball. Doesn't shoot well, fouls too often, mass attention lapses, doesn't play the role of 'slasher' enough, and definitely makes a lot of bone headed mistakes.

The things he does so well athletically can't be coached, but if he doesn't fix those other things, he'd look good catching passes from Williams!

 

[gunslingerdick]

Originally posted by BillyL:

I think far too many under-value this young man's contributions to his team.

bump

 

[Baby Debo]

I can remember posters saying the same things about another player on the last NC team. He's a turnover waiting to happen, why is Roy playing him??? Yada yada. He had close to the same redunkulous athletic ability as JP, and so many said that he was an overrated defender. IMHO Roy has a better idea of what these kids are capable of and what their skills offer to the team. Others have discussed the other stats that JP brings to the table, he's having to do what Marcus can't afford to do, otherwise he doesn't have any legs at the end of games!! I f he has to run the offense, his shot suffers, JJ can't handle the ball well enough to start the offense!! Default back to JP. Same thing when Danny G was here. Guys pissed and moaned and had these same threads about who's over rated and who's not. While it gets hard to watch sometimes, and it makes me want to scream, but it is just a game that we spectators get to arm chair evaluate. It's a game!!

 

[JimmyinVA]

great post by the op and others as well -- a lot of constructive criticism for a player we all want to succeed. best thread of the year so far.

 

[2 skerz 3]

Originally posted by 32TheEnigma:

JP's problem is very simply the fact that he is a long gait runner. If there was no half court line, he'd be an All American and folks would be talking about him as the next MJ. The issue he has is he is not able to shorten his steps in a half court set and his feet often get stuck when he attempts to drive, usually resulting in having to pick up his dribble earlier and settling for a jumper or either passing the ball altogether. Bullock suffered (suffers) from the same issue. It he had shorter/choppier steps (ala Jordan) he would be able to drive betweens seams in the defense and get to the basket. It's a footwork issue that is dang near impossible to fix after HS. It is what it is.
This post was edited on 3/30 1:02 AM by 32TheEnigma

You serious Clark?

 

[mikeirbyusa]

JP led our team in assist over 20 times this season.

He always took on the best scorers. And while some bring up guys who did score against him not a peep about the ones that didn't.

Yes, he has a lot to work on, yes he is a Tar Heel and I'm thrilled he is.

Looking forward to seeing what a complete player he can become.

Go Heels!

 

[plm]

jp did have one of his best defensive games against state at state holding lacy down early. he hit some shots late but overall i thought he did a good job. the question becomes if Theo reaches his potential next year who has the higher ceiling? to me they are both similar players in that they are both somewhat limited in their offensive game. i don't want to see the same thing that happen to Berry (stuck playing behind britt) happen to theo.

 

[BWill23]

Originally posted by mikeirbyusa:
JP led our team in assist over 20 times this season.

He always took on the best scorers. And while some bring up guys who did score against him not a peep about the ones that didn't.

Yes, he has a lot to work on, yes he is a Tar Heel and I'm thrilled he is.

Looking forward to seeing what a complete player he can become.

Go Heels!

Hasn't become a complete player yet. Not sure why anybody would assume he will all of a sudden become a complete player his last year.

I would be fine with him coming off the bench next year. Would rather see Berry, Pinson, or Jackson get more playing time over Tokoto. We've seen him and know what he is. Berry, Pinson, or Jackson could be our future. Get them out there and get them some valuable time.

 

[BillyL]

Originally posted by BWill23:

Originally posted by mikeirbyusa:
JP led our team in assist over 20 times this season.

He always took on the best scorers. And while some bring up guys who did score against him not a peep about the ones that didn't.

Yes, he has a lot to work on, yes he is a Tar Heel and I'm thrilled he is.

Looking forward to seeing what a complete player he can become.

Go Heels!

Hasn't become a complete player yet. Not sure why anybody would assume he will all of a sudden become a complete player his last year.

I would be fine with him coming off the bench next year. Would rather see Berry, Pinson, or Jackson get more playing time over Tokoto. We've seen him and know what he is. Berry, Pinson, or Jackson could be our future. Get them out there and get them some valuable time.

What is the guarantee that Pinson is going to surpass JP's production or become a better player than Tokoto is right now in just one summer's time . . ?

Or is it you wish to invest heavier in Pinson as a sophomore than give the time to a rising senior . . ?

Thank God that Roy is the one that determines who is better in practice and therefore receives playing time and starting honors.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

this is probably one of the better threads we've had all year. I think JP is an elite jumper. His bounce is crazy good, we all know that. like one poster mentioned though, due to his gate or whatever you want to call it, he is very limited with flexibility in his movement which makes him look clumsy/lazy, etc.

the most glaring points are that JP is simply not a good shooter. His mechanics aren't the kind that I think you can fix over the course of a summer and expect significant improvement. His only shot should be a layup, dunk or free throw. I stand by that. I also challenge the idea that he's an elite defender. He's simply no in my opinion, stats support that. He got blown up a lot this season against players that frankly, I thought he had the length to bother or at least challenge much more than he did. He routinely misses assignments and loses his man in the half court sets. On more than a few occasions, I witnessed Brice or Fat Fat pick up a stupid foul trying to fend off an interior shot from an offensive player that Tokoto lost sight of. and I don't mean to downplay the importance that Tokoto has on our team because I think he has a fit as a specialist for us that can come off the bench and provide energy and effort, but the assist numbers for him are greatly skewed. Frankly, outside of Marcus, he was the only player to control the basketball for us significantly. Britt and Berry almost cancelled each other out throughout the year in minutes which left us with JP trying to dribble around until Marcus could get a glimpse of an opening for a good shot when we needed it. This resulted in just as many terrible games as good games with JP handling the basketball. For every good pass he made, I'd argue that he made a pass equally as bad for a turnover. In saying that, he's not a PG and I fault Roy pretty heavily for not giving Berry more minutes earlier in the season to develop a viable ball handler who can get to the rim and free up more open shots than anybody else on our roster. JP did the best he could given his skill set and I applaud him for stepping up to accept a role in which he truly wasn't equipped for. If you look at the tail end of the year, JP, Marcus, Justin and even Britt in some games, greatly benefitted from Berry's ability to spread the floor and beat people off the dribble. This opened up passing lanes for open 3's, and also opened up cutting lanes for a player like JP to get into the paint for a shot.

I applaud JP for all he does for our team, but I truly believe that until we add another scorer on the perimeter to take JP's spot, we are looking at another team that carries close to double digit losses into postseason. We just aren't efficient offensively with JP on the floor. His inability to shoot or create off the dribble allow teams to essentially play a man free to clog up the paint, get in passing lanes, double the post, etc.

 

[BillyL]

Originally posted by GoNtheDistance:

this is probably one of the better threads we've had all year. I think JP is an elite jumper. His bounce is crazy good, we all know that. like one poster mentioned though, due to his gate or whatever you want to call it, he is very limited with flexibility in his movement which makes him look clumsy/lazy, etc.

the most glaring points are that JP is simply not a good shooter. His mechanics aren't the kind that I think you can fix over the course of a summer and expect significant improvement. His only shot should be a layup, dunk or free throw. I stand by that. I also challenge the idea that he's an elite defender. He's simply no in my opinion, stats support that. He got blown up a lot this season against players that frankly, I thought he had the length to bother or at least challenge much more than he did. He routinely misses assignments and loses his man in the half court sets. On more than a few occasions, I witnessed Brice or Fat Fat pick up a stupid foul trying to fend off an interior shot from an offensive player that Tokoto lost sight of. and I don't mean to downplay the importance that Tokoto has on our team because I think he has a fit as a specialist for us that can come off the bench and provide energy and effort, but the assist numbers for him are greatly skewed. Frankly, outside of Marcus, he was the only player to control the basketball for us significantly. Britt and Berry almost cancelled each other out throughout the year in minutes which left us with JP trying to dribble around until Marcus could get a glimpse of an opening for a good shot when we needed it. This resulted in just as many terrible games as good games with JP handling the basketball. For every good pass he made, I'd argue that he made a pass equally as bad for a turnover. In saying that, he's not a PG and I fault Roy pretty heavily for not giving Berry more minutes earlier in the season to develop a viable ball handler who can get to the rim and free up more open shots than anybody else on our roster. JP did the best he could given his skill set and I applaud him for stepping up to accept a role in which he truly wasn't equipped for. If you look at the tail end of the year, JP, Marcus, Justin and even Britt in some games, greatly benefitted from Berry's ability to spread the floor and beat people off the dribble. This opened up passing lanes for open 3's, and also opened up cutting lanes for a player like JP to get into the paint for a shot.

I applaud JP for all he does for our team, but I truly believe that until we add another scorer on the perimeter to take JP's spot, we are looking at another team that carries close to double digit losses into postseason. We just aren't efficient offensively with JP on the floor. His inability to shoot or create off the dribble allow teams to essentially play a man free to clog up the paint, get in passing lanes, double the post, etc.

Just curious here . . who is this player or person you refer to as 'Fat Fat' . . . ?

 

[GoNtheDistance]

Fat Fat is one of Meeks nicknames.

 

[BillyL]

Originally posted by GoNtheDistance:

Fat Fat is one of Meeks nicknames.

Gotcha . .

I wonder what prick gave him that nickname . .

 

[GoNtheDistance]

not sure, I'm pretty sure it goes back to his West Charlotte days

 

[BillyL]

Originally posted by GoNtheDistance:

not sure, I'm pretty sure it goes back to his West Charlotte days

It's a tough group over in West Charlotte I've heard . . .

 

[babe7671]

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply. You make a good point about not bringing up anyone he did in fact shut down. I was thinking the same thing during my original post about how I could post stats for players he shut down from teams like Robert Morris, William and Mary, Clemson, Virginia Tech, etc. etc. But I think you see where I'm going with this. He has the ability to shut down low level players from teams UNC has demolished throughout the year. An elite, or even great defender, would make the plays during the biggest games (i.e.: the ACC or NCAA tournament). That's why I stuck to the stats from the big games. Let me give you an example. Would we consider Marcus "second half Marcus" if he only had huge second halves in the games before conference play even started and then disappeared during games against ranked teams or tournament games? Maybe, but most likely people wouldn't remember a 20 point second half against Robert Morris as much as they remember his 20 point explosion against Arkansas leading us to the sweet 16. Or him winning the second half scoring battle with TJ Warren to beat the wolf puppies in the second half last year. My point is to be an elite defender, you must do it in the elite games.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Why did you forget Lacey? Yes JP has lots to work on, but this is one old Tar Heel who will be pulling like crazy for him to succeed.

Some of the guys you name have made a LOT of guys look bad on D and sometimes you have to tip your hat to that player. Dekker ring a bell? Tank might get the head lines but Dekker gets it done!

But carry on .......................................................................

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Originally posted by BillyL:
Thank God that Roy is the one that determines who is better in practice and therefore receives playing time and starting honors.

AMEN!

No doubt in my mind, Theo's time is coming. Looking forward to it. His minutes will increase next year and this old Tar Heel hopes to see Berry start from day one. Injury-sickness was all that slowed him this year.

 

[DSouthr]

Originally posted by gary-7:
Dave, you and Oz have added some excellent points.

Many fans indeed don't always get the "help" nature of the Carolina D. Help is not just a luxury, it's essential here. From the first practice on our players are put in a "4-Man Shell" drill where they are taught to force baseline guarding the ball, with the player "one pass away" drilled to step in and help to stymie and/or trap the driver on the baseline, and the player(s) "two passes away" responsible for covering back-side,

Oz is definitely right that our Bigs have had a spotty record this season on ball-side help and JP was made to look bad at times when he was actually doing his job. It is also true that sometimes when JP drifts it is an effort to help when perhaps a teammate has neglected to do so.

And Dave, my brother, you pretty thoroughly summed up the effects of the Guard dilemma that has tested our sanity so often this season. I've been occasionally trashed for saying it, but yes, Roy made a (well-intended) miscalculation with the opening lineup that had ripple effects. I will take just one exception, Marcus is a pretty good defender when his feet aren't killing him, but point well taken: Berry brought tenacious defense to the table along with the obvious offensive boost, and not just on the ball --- the aforementioned help falls on Guards as well, and Berry was willing and able to do just that.

As for JP, he's still my "favorite". I want him to soar and attack and highlight-film dunk and disrupt on the defensive end, but mostly doing things that help, not hurt the team. Who knows? With the differences in the pro game and his redonkulous ($1 to Stuart Scott) athleticism he could well morph into an NBA player, but as for his college game he needs to concentrate on playing to his strengths and not becoming a negative... and that starts with not trying to be a secondary PG and smartening up his shot selection. He doesn't have a bad stroke (if he can keep that damned elbow in) and I don't mind him taking the occasional open 3, but those awkward pull-ups need to stop.

And again, Dave, you nailed it: the more we put our best PG (Berry) and our best 2G (Paige) on the floor together, the more likely JP is to play in his most effective role.

gary, you are a coach, so when I talk ball watchcing, I know you know what I am talking about, you know the game within the game that occurrs off the ball and you know what I am talking about is inspied by more of what I see off th ebal lthan it is on the ball. Understand, I am not saying Marcus is a bad defender, all I am saying is this season he was not a great defender and at times the truth is he just wasn't very good on that end of the court. We can talk for hours about why but for this I am talking results.

YOU also know gary, I know you do that when Joel came in to the game all the sudden the offense was better but less discussed is that the defense was way better as well. And it especially got better as Jackson began to finally feel more comfortable with the defensive concepts, you know he got beat a lot early on, I don't have to tell you that.

Gary, here is my mian concern, as a coach I knw you share it, JP didn't do anthing this season, as far as facillitating at the point that his coach did not ask him to do. I mean, can you imagine Roy not telling him to try to make passes in to thre interior yet JP trying some of those as constantly as he did? You knwo as well as I do gary, the coach has the ultimate control over those things, it is called substitution, don't do what your coach tells you to do and as a coach Gary, you tell me what happens? LOL And really, if you have ot have Marcus looking for his shot and junk defenses gear toward keeping the ball out of Marcus's hands, and your starting line up has JP and Jackson, who is left to distribute the ball other than JP? As a coach Gary, how do you feel about YOUR wing tryinjg to play asd a PG, I bet I know, I bet he gets to have a seat next to you for more than a minute or 2, how close am I? LOL

That is kinda my rub, don't jump down JP's back when the kid was doing the best he could and doing exactly what his coach askes him to do, blame the coach, blame congress, blame O-freakin-Bama but don't dump on JP. Not saaying you did Gary but that is the feeling I got reading this thread as a whole, that folks were looking to scapegoat JP and this Tar Heel can't stand by and let that happen without speaking up. I would MUCH rather JP play for us than play against us, I will leave it at that...

 

[imajericho]

I would love to see UNC employ a lineup that I know they will not.

Berry
Paige
Jackson
Tokoto (at the 4 - he can play here - his leaping ability and length is made for the inside, and he locks down stretch 4s)
Johnson


Johnson Hicks Meeks rotating the center and the 4 with Tokoto.

That gets out best PG on the floor, our best shooter, our best mid range shooter, and our best athlete.

Tokoto is more suited for defending the 4 than the 2. And, he would skyrocket in blocks from that position.

 

[babe7671]

Thanks for the great discussion Mike! I will be pulling for him with the rest of the Tar Heel family. I'm just as hopeful as everyone else that he will make the improvements over the off season to become the player we all know he has the potential to be.