Let’s be honest Dooks success after K is not because of coaching it’s cause they know how to pay players.. likely been doing it for a while .. how else do you have a 5 star freshman center that’s ok coming off the bench or a starter at another Acc school that’s ok not starting… you give them money to keep them happy..
Keep Hubert or fire him?
- Thread starter DSouthr
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Did anyone see the ending to Houston and Purdue? Do you think Hubert Davis could ever draw up a play like that?
I don’t think he could fathom doing that…
I don’t think he could fathom doing that…
You have to take the “paying players” excuse off the table now. It’s legal (and has hurt the game, but legal). All of that aside, if Hubert had Duke’s roster he would not win 31 out of 32 games.
Dook hasn’t had many close games.. any coach could win with that roster..
I can easy answer this question, No Hubert would not STILL be our head coach if he had no affiliation to UNC because he would have never had a interview for the job, his phone would never have rang.
And when he is fired he will never have another head coaching job.
some have 25 years experience at paying players! Experience matters. sheshitski figured out 25 years ago(Cory Magette) that the dook brand wasn't enough. Hubert just figured out that the UNC brand isn't enough.
I haven't seen anything from Hubert that tells me he would win 31 out of 32 with that roster.
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Fire him... He is a great person, that's all. He can't coach. He is failing in recruiting battle as well.
I think the only way this turns around is if we hang him in effigy.
Get it? See what I did there?
Get it? See what I did there?
Remember when some folks here were snickering that K secretly hoped Duke would tank after he retired to make him look better by comparison? I do.
In today's language. Duke is more committed to winning than UNC is.
Spending money is part of the equation if you're committed to winning.
Win, yes. Win that convincingly? Could Hubert?
Dude from Nevada (Davidson) down to Va, Clemson, ND and Tx time for Hucap to step down before he completely destroys our program.
What is surprising and disappointing for me with Hubert is that when he got the job his resume looked really good with 1 exception, no experience as a head coach and that would have had me have a hard no to the hire, some may recall, the guy I wanted if it had to stay in the family was King Rice. Bottom line it should not have had to stay in the family, that should be clear to everyone at this point.
But look at Hubert in the other aspects out side of never being a head coach. Played and was coached by Dean Smith, how do you not understand ball having been coached by Dean? Had a very successful NBA career, how do you not understand basketball talent having had to play against the best in the world? Multiple years as a ESPN commentator where he had to break down what teams and payers did before every game he called? Multiple years as Roy's assistant, did head coach our JV team successfully. How could he not have learned the game from 2 hall of fame coaches at UNC? A guy that everyone loves, darn near not possible to not like the man Hubert is and we Tar Heels, at least used to place great stock in the character of the men who led out basketball program. On paper he was the perfect guy sans the needed experience.
Yet this very same man shows me what I see as really poor talent evaluation, one of his 2 MAJOR flaws that no one could have seen coming. Talent eval doesn't just apply to players, it applies to the coaches you bringing and their ability to teach young kids how to play, how to play the positions they used to play for Carolina? Talent eval goes to who you put on the floor in certain situations, what combinations of players you use, how many minutes you play a certain guy, putting players in a position to use the strength of their game effectively. It as well includes bringing in guys that fit what you want to do, that fit your approach rather than bringing in guys who are better at another type of approach and force fitting them to what you want them to be, in other words forcing square pegs in to round holes as I have said so many times. I would have thought this would have been a rock solid strength of Hubert's, it has been absolute failure,k I don't know how it can be seen other wise. The other glaring failure is simply not having his approach to both side of the court well defined thus the annual constant tinkering we see multiple times every season so far, which goes directly to the fact he had no D-1 head coaching experience to get his tinkering worked out and settle on his bottom line approach. I clearly see what is happening I am totally baffled as to why I have to see it, it is like Richard Petty's son not knowing how to drive a car, would make no sense right?
But look at Hubert in the other aspects out side of never being a head coach. Played and was coached by Dean Smith, how do you not understand ball having been coached by Dean? Had a very successful NBA career, how do you not understand basketball talent having had to play against the best in the world? Multiple years as a ESPN commentator where he had to break down what teams and payers did before every game he called? Multiple years as Roy's assistant, did head coach our JV team successfully. How could he not have learned the game from 2 hall of fame coaches at UNC? A guy that everyone loves, darn near not possible to not like the man Hubert is and we Tar Heels, at least used to place great stock in the character of the men who led out basketball program. On paper he was the perfect guy sans the needed experience.
Yet this very same man shows me what I see as really poor talent evaluation, one of his 2 MAJOR flaws that no one could have seen coming. Talent eval doesn't just apply to players, it applies to the coaches you bringing and their ability to teach young kids how to play, how to play the positions they used to play for Carolina? Talent eval goes to who you put on the floor in certain situations, what combinations of players you use, how many minutes you play a certain guy, putting players in a position to use the strength of their game effectively. It as well includes bringing in guys that fit what you want to do, that fit your approach rather than bringing in guys who are better at another type of approach and force fitting them to what you want them to be, in other words forcing square pegs in to round holes as I have said so many times. I would have thought this would have been a rock solid strength of Hubert's, it has been absolute failure,k I don't know how it can be seen other wise. The other glaring failure is simply not having his approach to both side of the court well defined thus the annual constant tinkering we see multiple times every season so far, which goes directly to the fact he had no D-1 head coaching experience to get his tinkering worked out and settle on his bottom line approach. I clearly see what is happening I am totally baffled as to why I have to see it, it is like Richard Petty's son not knowing how to drive a car, would make no sense right?
IIRC, Hubert wanted to bring KR in as an assistant. I wonder if Rice is glad he didn't accept.
Since I don't follow Monmouth, perhaps you can answer: does Rice emulate Dean; is he a practitioner of the "Carolina Way"?
It strikes me that Hubert probably gets an A for his adherence to the "Family" ideal. But what grade would you give him for adherence to the "Carolina Way"?
Like Roy, KIng does some things he learned from Dean and some of just his on ideas. That is what you look for in a head coach, taking what they have leaned and building on it to fit in to today's game. How the game was played 60yrs ago is very different from the way it is played today so any system, even the Carolina way has to adapt to the current reality. Like our constitution, it is an ever evolving thing yet still hold immutable truths that should never change.
I think what you are more asking is does King follow a similar approach to the offensive and defensive sides of the ball rather than the Carolina Way. For example, the Carolina Way is not that UNC fast breaks as much as they can, that is an approach or you can call it a skeme, maybe even system. The Carolina way is more about what defines UNC like "play hard, play smart, play together", like UNC is family, we were family before family got cool, now everyone wants to think they are family. The Carolina way is NBA players coming up to that UNC rookie and letting him know, we family, what ever you need . It is things like Dean always being there for every one of his former players, from walk ons to MJ, a walk on looking for a job and Dean would makes calls even thou it had been 20yrs since that guy played for Dean.
The Carolina Way is like in a business proposal your first step is to set in stone your mission statement, the Carolina Way is the UNC mission statement, everything else is about how you achieve that mission.
There is a lot of discussion now about some of our former players saying some things publicly that Cadeau's family don't like. Some times the best thing family can give you is tough love, what you really need is not always what you want to hear and what Theo, Raymond, and Justin had to say was maybe not what Cadeau's family wanted to hear but it was exactly what Elliot needed to hear even if he is not yet mature enough to realize it.
In my hiring protocol the most impressive if not most important attribute is proof of success in previous jobs in the same position applied for.
No experience in that exact position = your application will remain unreviewed as experience would be a non negotiable prerequisite.
Which is exactly what I said in the rest of that sentence, he would have been a hard no due to the lack of experience.
I have a guy I want you to consider for the UNC job.
He has 4 years under his belt at a top school in a top conference. He has nearly a 70% W-L record. He's 6-2 in the NCAAT.
Are you telling me you wouldn't hire that guy?
Needless to say that's the guy we have now. If you would consider hiring that guy, why wouldn't you keep that guy?
What part of that resume isn't good enough?
In 4 years, I see no facets of Hubert that have shown indisputable growth/improvement. You can split hairs over he’s gotten a little better at this or that, but all in all, he is basically now who he was then.
If there hasn’t been any growth in 4 years, I think that’s a pretty definitive indication that it’s not ever going to happen. For all of his great human qualities, Hubert is a stubborn man. You can say Roy was as well, but I think the current landscape of college ball, being stubborn doesn’t play like it may have in the past.
Also, if the idea that Hubert was against a GM was true, then I have serious trepidation how the dichotomy is going to work between Hubert, Jim and Bubba. Even if Hubert and Jim like each other, a power struggle seems imminent at some point. I’d like to see the “org chart” publicly discussed by Bubba. Again, I can see Hubert being stubborn here if he is to defer to Jim.
Somewhat discounting credit to Hubert for the championship game run in 2022 (Mike Davis did the exact same thing in his 2nd year at Indiana in 2002, and I don’t think you’d ever get in an argument with anyone that he was a good coach), 3 of Hubert’s 4 regular seasons have been unacceptable by UNC standards… an 8 seed, an 11 seed and missing the tourney. I’ll in turn give him some credit for last year’s 1 seed, but mind you all the while through this mediocrity, he had the program’s all time rebounding leader and 2nd all time scorer.
We’ve seen all we’re getting with Hubert. I do sympathize with the current game being more difficult than ever (NIL, portal), but long term, Hubert is not the guy. Like someone else said… I question wether Hubert would be sitting at 34-3 if he was coaching this Duke squad.
Time to move on. It would be best for everyone if Hubert would just step down… make it health related or whatever makes it least awkward for all… but again, the stubbornness will never let it happen.
Also, still a lot can happen between now and November, but we’re seriously close to year 5 being much worse than any of the previous 4 (just because we now have money to spend doesn’t mean kids will be lining up to come here).
If there hasn’t been any growth in 4 years, I think that’s a pretty definitive indication that it’s not ever going to happen. For all of his great human qualities, Hubert is a stubborn man. You can say Roy was as well, but I think the current landscape of college ball, being stubborn doesn’t play like it may have in the past.
Also, if the idea that Hubert was against a GM was true, then I have serious trepidation how the dichotomy is going to work between Hubert, Jim and Bubba. Even if Hubert and Jim like each other, a power struggle seems imminent at some point. I’d like to see the “org chart” publicly discussed by Bubba. Again, I can see Hubert being stubborn here if he is to defer to Jim.
Somewhat discounting credit to Hubert for the championship game run in 2022 (Mike Davis did the exact same thing in his 2nd year at Indiana in 2002, and I don’t think you’d ever get in an argument with anyone that he was a good coach), 3 of Hubert’s 4 regular seasons have been unacceptable by UNC standards… an 8 seed, an 11 seed and missing the tourney. I’ll in turn give him some credit for last year’s 1 seed, but mind you all the while through this mediocrity, he had the program’s all time rebounding leader and 2nd all time scorer.
We’ve seen all we’re getting with Hubert. I do sympathize with the current game being more difficult than ever (NIL, portal), but long term, Hubert is not the guy. Like someone else said… I question wether Hubert would be sitting at 34-3 if he was coaching this Duke squad.
Time to move on. It would be best for everyone if Hubert would just step down… make it health related or whatever makes it least awkward for all… but again, the stubbornness will never let it happen.
Also, still a lot can happen between now and November, but we’re seriously close to year 5 being much worse than any of the previous 4 (just because we now have money to spend doesn’t mean kids will be lining up to come here).
LOL, I see what ya doing but I wil play along just for giggles. The part of the resume that has me at a pass, at least for now, is the 4yrs experience. You have not given me any more of his work experience other than 4yrs of what you call Top conference. My first question will be what did you do before coaching that top program in that top conference? Followed up quickly by my asking and why are you looking to leave your current employer?
WW, it all goes back to experience as a head coach because over time a head coach works thru all the "I think this may work" items on his wish list of what I would do if I were the boss. He filters out what doesn't work and perfects what does and over that time his own unique system emerges, system being his approach to both offense and defense. Not just his basic approaches but how you must adjust your system to the players you have as well as what you look for in the players you are bringing in. 4yrs total experience is not enough time for that kind of development.
Now there are 3 guys that I will go ahead and address that may seem to counter what I have said but do they?
1) Roy Williams, went to Kansas as head coach, had no head coaching experience. Very successful for sure but Roy didn't try to reinvent the wheel, he brought with him Dean's offensive approach and a lot of his defensive approach but not all. Roy had the added advantage at the time of being a basketball power school in a football centric area, not much outside of Ky that were taking recruits from his area so he had a huge advantage in the talent pool he could draw from.
2) Tommy LLyod, has done an impressive job with Zona for sure but it is still a solid advantage for him to be able to draw from that west coast talent pool. I think maybe he was as well fortunate that the Zona boosters ponied up to help him get off to a great start.
3) Jon "plastic face" Schyer, great star for sure but he has been hand delivered great talent. Flagg was already sold on duke he didn't have to earn that, the big man was also. Duke got their GM and her staff in place early on and that is making a ton of difference for them. I don't think we really know what level of Schyer actually is and will not until he has to coach a team that does not go in to a game with that huge talent advantage.
Sort of feel like this whole thread is a waste. Hubert isnt going anywhere, they just extend his contract FFS.
Good response overall but on this point the begged question is "how many years are enough?"
Dean struggled for 5. K struggled early, too. If Hubert is good this coming year, is that good enough? Will you think he has worked through his issues?
Suppose we are a Sweet 16 team with something like a 24-12 final record. Will you figure Hubert has turned the corner? If not, will you give him more years? Or has he been so disappointing that you'll need more than that?
you think arizona has more resources than oregon, ucla, usc, byu? more recent success than gonzaga? lloyd also inherited an absolute mess from sean miller. pretty sure arizona had a postseason ban the year before lloyd got there. Lloyd has been successful because he has alot of international connections from his time at Gonzaga and ironically because he runs a similar system to the UNC Roy Williams system and had the intelligence unlike Hubert to hire a seasoned assistant like Steve Robinson to help navigate his first HC job. Hubert could have kept continuity in place and we would probably be in a similar spot to Arizona right now but Hubert without any HC experience decided to do everything his way
Kinda hard to compare the eras of Dean’s and K’s first 5 to today’s landscape. You partially had to patiently recruit your way out of it back then… and their struggles were resolved in large part to getting big recruits. Today, you can basically “fire” players who aren’t up to snuff and replace them with better players immediately. Granted, today’s game is insanely harder to maintain consistency (NIL, portal), so the only real thing we can compare Hubert with are his peers.
He and Scheyer are nearly identical case studies. Decorated alumni, long time assistants taking over at premier programs, hand picked by their legend predecessors as first time head coaches. Their results have been night and day different. While NIL discrepancy can be part of the explanation in their disparities, using that as the entire reasoning would be lazy.
While those numbers look good, that’s a bit of resume cherry picking. (Also, you need to update tourney record… he has 3 losses now).
Also conversely cherry picking on that resume
Year 1: Preseason #19 - makes tourney as a disappointing 8 seed
Year 2: Preseason #1 - historically misses tourney altogether
Year 4: Preseason #9 - team #68 of tourney field
All this “underachieving” while having both the all time leading rebounder and 2nd all time scorer in program history for the bulk of that time frame. Also to note, this coaching performance coinciding with possibly the weakest top to bottom the conference has ever been. Imagine how much worse it would be if the conference was a strong as it has been historically…
All 70% winning percentages aren’t created equal… someone doing that at Providence or Boston College is very impressive. Doing that at UNC is baseline expectation.
If Hubert were able to develop as a coach to the degree I feel he needs to we should all name him St Hubert because to qualify for sainthood you must have a documented miracle credited to you and that is what it would take. I am actually NOT talking about a win loss record, truth is Hubert could hit the right combination from the portal and end up #1 in the ACC and #1 seeds going in to the NCAAT (sound familiar) and still be the same coach, my opinion would not change.
I have laid out some specifics as to why I feel like I do, notice none of my concerns have mentioned win loss records.
I think there needs to be 3 or 4 more threads that directly, or tacitly, blames Hubert Davis for everything imaginable.
UNC has to spend more money... a lot more money.
This idea that all of these great coaches are going to drop what they have and come here is a little delusional. I doubt UNC can meet the SEC offers anyway.
Agree 100%. I haven't sat down and thought through this for too long, but sometimes just passing time, I think about how they could institute an NIL cap, and that cap would be the same for all D1 teams...say $10-20 mil a year, and each team could spend it all on whichever players they wanted...all on one player, or spread it amongst several players. And likely this money wouldn't necessarily be hard to raise from donors.
Then - since the players are getting paid, once as a player you are getting NIL money, say as a freshman, you get that same amount of money each year you stay, but if you choose to transfer, you sit out a year, and you don't get that NIL money in your sit-out year.
This seems like it'd reward the players, and also since they have the NIL money incoming for any year they stay with the same school, and if they'd lose that and lose a year if transferring, that'd slow down the musical chairs.
I'm not sure how to approach the non - NIL players and their rights to transfer. I think as a coach / AD I'd split up the NIL money so all my very important scholarship contributors to the team received some NIL and were bound by those rules I spelled out above.
Great post. Agreed on all points. And answer to your first question above is N. F. W. , in my opinion.
yes, and these go hand in hand. If you are a top coach, like Oates, etc. you get rewarded with big money at better programs (though I realize you meant big money to the players).
Still - no way should we be paying Hub top 10 program HC salary for #40-60 results, including all the benefits UNC accrues for being a big draw, on TV a lot, good history, recruiting advantages. Hub is a long way from earning the $ he is getting paid, that of a top 10 or even top 20 D1 college bb coach.
That's more than fair, @big_deez - but can you point to even one - let alone 3-4 things asked of a big-time program head coach, where you say, "Hub isn't great at this or that, but he is above average, outduels the other HC at [X]". I can't think of anything Hub does better than his opposing coach, say at Louisville, or Duke, etc. Not one.
We all know that. But does that mean he's safe for more than a year? I doubt it.
The PTB decided to throw big money at the roster problem. Assuming the new boys in town know what they are doing and land Hubert a contender-worthy roster, then Hubert gets this year to show knows what to do with it.
Which raises at least 2 questions:
1. How good is good enough? Is 2nd place in the regular season good enough? Is getting to the ACCT championship game good enough? Is reaching the Sweet 16 good enough? My feeling is that he has to do at least 2 of those and maybe better. And it had better not be another demoralizing, roller-coaster ride of a season, either.
2. What happens if the brain trust fails to hand Hubert a contender roster, and we have another disappointing season. Is that Hubert's problem? Should both Hubert and Tanner be on the hot seat?
I don't know if he's a braniac, numerical analytics and X&O nerd/geek on this strategic level...but a lot about him, in his mannerisms and how he looks reminds me of Brad Stevens (spelling?) from Butler and then the Celtics. I'd like to have him too. He has acquired a lot of talent, size, strength, depth, ability on his team.
I guess there have been some co-ed harassment claims raised against him, nothing has stuck so far though.
Not just with Florida... I really notice it with Duke too....it is night and day the way these teams have better offensive strategy, lots of movement without the ball, lots of passing, screening ....WAY more than UNC.
And other teams that give way more defensive effort than the Heels.
I put this almost all on Hubs. At some point you have to have more of a strategy for the team than "try hard" which devolves into stand around, and watch a guy or two iso dribble and jack up a 3.... followed by matador defense, easily beaten on the other end.
....at least not at a D1 power 5 conference school or whatever the megaconferences are called these days. Hard to keep up.
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