Kentucky's governor is an idiot...

[chickenhunter]

blames teachers for children being sexually assaulted, abused and introduced to drug use because teachers walked out of class for better pay and more resources for teachers in the classroom. This dude is a **** stick of biblical proportions. **** him and anybody who agrees with him.

http://abc7chicago.com/politics/ky-...er-protests-caused-child-sex-assault/3346324/

 

[gunslingerdick]

What an idiot.

With that said, I’m growing very tired of teachers acting like they are the only underpaid position. If I decided to not show up to work because I was going protesting, I’d be fired and rightfully so. I know you’re a teacher @chickenhunter and I’m sure you deserve more than you’re getting. And I know you didn’t poast this for all of us to empathize with the plight of the teacher. But every time I turn around, I’m reading/hearing/seeing a teacher crying about their situations. My advice to all of them; pick a different profession. Sure, we’ll lose some good teachers but how good are they if they’re apparently so focused on “fighting the fight” instead of teaching? I know they’re behind the 8 ball with SOLs and spineless admins that won’t take problematic kids out of classes for behavior reasons, but again, they chose this path.

Thank you to all teachers out there that are genuinely interested in educating our youth regardless of the obstacles they face.

 

[ticket2ride04]

What an idiot.

With that said, I’m growing very tired of teachers acting like they are the only underpaid position. If I decided to not show up to work because I was going protesting, I’d be fired and rightfully so. I know you’re a teacher @chickenhunter and I’m sure you deserve more than you’re getting. And I know you didn’t poast this for all of us to empathize with the plight of the teacher. But every time I turn around, I’m reading/hearing/seeing a teacher crying about their situations. My advice to all of them; pick a different profession. Sure, we’ll lose some good teachers but how good are they if they’re apparently so focused on “fighting the fight” instead of teaching? I know they’re behind the 8 ball with SOLs and spineless admins that won’t take problematic kids out of classes for behavior reasons, but again, they chose this path.

Thank you to all teachers out there that are genuinely interested in educating our youth regardless of the obstacles they face.

I get what you are saying, but why do we pay so poorly for teachers and police officers? Those are two jobs where I think the qualifications and pay are ridiculously low. Being a teacher should be an honor in this country and a prized job. The qualifiers should be rigorous and pay compelling.

Likewise, becoming an office of the law should require a lot of education and testing. The pay should be much better. I have a friend who was a former Dallas SWAT that went on to join the Marine Corps and now works as in-house legal counsel. He has some great police stories and one thing he is adamant about is that a great cop can do the work of 10 average cops.

As long as we pay shit wages, we will get shit results.

 

[heelbent]

I have a friend who was a former Dallas SWAT that went on to join the Marine Corps.

That usually works the other way around. Don't think I've ever known a Marine that was prior PO.

 

[nctransplant]

You won't hear me complain about pay. Do I wish we were paid more? Hell yeah, but I'm happy making what I make especially since I work part time. We get every holiday off including 2 weeks at Christmas and basically 2.5 months off during the summer. My only complaint is parents. We have a parenting problem in the US and schools and education will continue to decline as long as this continues.

 

[BillyL]

As long as we pay shit wages, we will get shit results.

Amen.


I was more than happy to see the West Virginia and Oklahoma teachers get the pay raises and extra benefits that I believe they so deserved. Underpaid and taken for granted is what far too many of our educators are in my humble opinion.

Kentucky and Arizona both should be looking at making improvements to the salaries of their teachers . . far too many spending cuts in education have taken place across the country. Additional funding for education could be a not so sleeper issue in the upcoming elections . .

. . and btw, fvck those WV asshole lawmakers that tried to back-door cuts in the teacher's pension funding.

 

[Raising Heel]

blames teachers for children being sexually assaulted, abused and introduced to drug use because teachers walked out of class for better pay and more resources for teachers in the classroom.

He guaranteed this was happening, so I have no choice but to believe him.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I’m growing very tired of teachers acting like they are the only an underpaid position.

FTFY

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Don't even get me started on what a crock of BS teacher's pensions are...

 

[tarheel0910]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

That is a pretty dumb statement.

 

[Heels Noir]

As long as we pay shit wages, we will get shit results.

I agree that most public servants -- teachers, law enforcement, fire fighters -- are underpaid, but to say we get "shit results" from them as a consequence is a slap in the face to all of them. To the contrary, I believe we get one hell of a bargain considering, for the most part, their tireless commitment and dedication.

 

[Louigi]

I get what you are saying, but why do we pay so poorly.

I am not sure teachers and police officers get paid "poorly". When you add up pensions, benefits, time off, retirement age, etc., they pay more than a lot of other careers.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

That is a pretty dumb statement.

Unfortunately, I can't take credit for it. It's from a Bernard Shaw play.

Makes perfect sense though...if someone was good enough at something to make real money at it, they would be doing it themselves.

There are exceptions of course. Being someone who is good enough at something to do it for real, but prefers the part-time work calendar that a teacher enjoys. Or nurturing young lives, or whatever other reason they concoct. But then they can't complain about the pay.

 

[strummingram]

Makes perfect sense though...if someone was good enough at something to make real money at it, they would be doing it themselves.

THAT is a pretty dumb statement. Is that yours or Shaw's?

 

[tarheel0910]

Unfortunately, I can't take credit for it. It's from a Bernard Shaw play.

Makes perfect sense though...if someone was good enough at something to make real money at it, they would be doing it themselves.

There are exceptions of course. Being someone who is good enough at something to do it for real, but prefers the part-time work calendar that a teacher enjoys. Or nurturing young lives, or whatever other reason they concoct. But then they can't complain about the pay.

That is a pretty dumb statement.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

THAT is a pretty dumb statement. Is that yours or Shaw's?

That one’s all me baby.

But maybe you or @tarheel0910 can play teacher and educate me as to why it’s a dumb statement. You know, “show your work”, if you will...

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

That one’s all me baby.

But maybe you or @tarheel0910 can play teacher and educate me as to why it’s a dumb statement. You know, “show your work”, if you will...

Simple. There's a hell of a lot more to being an effective teacher than being able to "do" whatever it is that you teach.

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

Also, I'm not sure how anyone could be "good enough" at basic math or spelling to make a living at it, but I'm fairly certain there's a legitimate need for quite a few people with the ability to impart those lessons to 6-8 year olds.

 

[cletusnow]

Simple. There's a hell of a lot more to being an effective teacher than being able to "do" whatever it is that you teach.

Apparently teachers aren’t very effective. According to all of the data the US still ranks close to the bottom in education among 1st world countries.

 

[coryfly]

I could have done a lot of things but decided to teach. Granted, people have often asked me why but I enjoy it. I also wanted a job where I knew I could work in my hometown and also eventually have all the time I wanted with my family.

I also think anyone who thinks we get poor results doesn't understand much about the profession. We compare very well to other countries except for our lower socioeconomic group, which is very large here and a group we actually try to educate. It isn't really a very fair comparison. What would help the most is to figure out how to decrease that group of people. It won't happen but that is the group the generally hinders the way we look compared to other countries.

 

[ticket2ride04]

That usually works the other way around. Don't think I've ever known a Marine that was prior PO.

Actually, he went to work on Wall Street out of college as a trader with Chase. Did it for a couple years and decided it wasn’t for him. Moved back to Texas and joined the police department. Did that for a while and eventually joined the Marines. He was a JAG down in LeJune and got out about 4 years ago. Works corporate law now.

 

[ticket2ride04]

FTFY

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Don't even get me started on what a crock of BS teacher's pensions are...

Lol, ok guy.

I agree that most public servants -- teachers, law enforcement, fire fighters -- are underpaid, but to say we get "shit results" from them as a consequence is a slap in the face to all of them. To the contrary, I believe we get one hell of a bargain considering, for the most part, their tireless commitment and dedication.

Would it be fair to say that the outcomes and experiences with teachers and police are less than good in this country? For such an important role, I’d expect very good to great results

I am not sure teachers and police officers get paid "poorly". When you add up pensions, benefits, time off, retirement age, etc., they pay more than a lot of other careers.

They also attract people who are looking for vacation, little responsibility, and low risk. I’d prefer to attract top flight talent to these positions.

Unfortunately, I can't take credit for it. It's from a Bernard Shaw play.

Makes perfect sense though...if someone was good enough at something to make real money at it, they would be doing it themselves.

There are exceptions of course. Being someone who is good enough at something to do it for real, but prefers the part-time work calendar that a teacher enjoys. Or nurturing young lives, or whatever other reason they concoct. But then they can't complain about the pay.

You’ve never complained about your pay?

Apparently teachers aren’t very effective. According to all of the data the US still ranks close to the bottom in education among 1st world countries.

Because we have terrible standards and requirements to become a teacher

 

[tarheel0910]

I could have done a lot of things but decided to teach. Granted, people have often asked me why but I enjoy it. I also wanted a job where I knew I could work in my hometown and also eventually have all the time I wanted with my family.

I also think anyone who thinks we get poor results doesn't understand much about the profession. We compare very well to other countries except for our lower socioeconomic group, which is very large here and a group we actually try to educate. It isn't really a very fair comparison. What would help the most is to figure out how to decrease that group of people. It won't happen but that is the group the generally hinders the way we look compared to other countries.

Didn't realize you were a teacher. What do you teach?

 

[cletusnow]

My wife is a public school teacher and there are several issues at work against successful outcomes. The schools are overcrowded due to relocation and mass migration. The classroom sizes of 25-30 students are too large for overall success. ESL students demand far more resources than non ESL students, and must be pulled daily from the standard classroom for specialized education by a Spanish fluent teacher. It is also very difficult to get rid of a poorly performing teacher. The ‘at risk’ students demand far more of a teachers time than do the ‘perfomers’, and therefore the brightest students don’t meet their full potential. These observations only apply to public school.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Simple. There's a hell of a lot more to being an effective teacher than being able to "do" whatever it is that you teach.

I'm sure there is. In fact that's what my point is. With teaching, those other traits are more important than being able to "do". When you get paid in the field, you need to be able to actually "do" well.

You’ve never complained about your pay?

Of course I have. But I understand what I'm worth and that I'm not worth more than I'm getting paid right now (if I was, I would take a job that paid me my proper worth).

 

[ticket2ride04]

Of course I have. But I understand what I'm worth and that I'm not worth more than I'm getting paid right now (if I was, I would take a job that paid me my proper worth).

Wow. You sound like the dutiful little soldier.

Personally, I’ve felt like I’ve been underpaid at every job and will never be satisfied.

 

[Heels Noir]

Would it be fair to say that the outcomes and experiences with teachers and police are less than good in this country? For such an important role, I’d expect very good to great results

"Less than good," which I think is a drastic underestimation, is a far cry from "shit results."

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Wow. You sound like the dutiful little soldier.

Quite the opposite. If I got offered more value (compensation, quality of life, etc.) elsewhere, I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I have the best I can find for my skills/experience/education.

Personally, I’ve felt like I’ve been underpaid at every job and will never be satisfied.

That sounds miserable.

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

I'm sure there is. In fact that's what my point is. With teaching, those other traits are more important than being able to "do". When you get paid in the field, you need to be able to actually "do" well.

Then let's change it to:

Those who can, do. Those who can also teach, teach.

 

[coryfly]

Didn't realize you were a teacher. What do you teach?

I like have the awesome job. I teach PE. I used to teach fourth grade for about 9 years. Loved it but eventually want to coach golf so got certified for PE and got a job. I've considered doing some different things and have the qualifications to go into administration but wouldn't even consider it until the kids are older.

 

[BillyL]

Arizona teachers vote for a statewide walkout . .

From the article linked:

Arizona teachers have voted to walk off the job to demand increased school funding, marking a key step toward a first-ever statewide strike that builds on a movement for higher pay in other Republican-dominant states.

A grassroots group and the state's largest teacher membership group said Thursday that teachers will walkout April 26.

The vote was held following weeks of growing protests and an offer from Republican Gov. Doug Ducey to give teachers 20 percent raise by 2020. Many teachers kept up the pressure at schools and on social media, saying the plan failed to address much-needed funding for classrooms and support staff.


http://azdailysun.com/arizona-teach...cle_4a771d26-b7ea-545d-9674-f26773e3bb85.html

 

[nctransplant]

One of the biggest issues with education funding is the the largest portion of funding goes to those in education that never step foot in the classroom. County, federal, and state offices are full of wasted dollars.
As for the statement about those who can't, teach, I worked in a lab for nine years and did quite well. I chose to teach because I wanted to coach.
Pensions? I pay a large chunk of my monthly salary toward my retirement.

 

[tarheel0910]

I like have the awesome job. I teach PE. I used to teach fourth grade for about 9 years. Loved it but eventually want to coach golf so got certified for PE and got a job. I've considered doing some different things and have the qualifications to go into administration but wouldn't even consider it until the kids are older.

That's cool. My mom was a PE teacher and coach. She served as AD for a couple of years as well.

 

[coryfly]

That's cool. My mom was a PE teacher and coach. She served as AD for a couple of years as well.

I thought about going that route as well one day but I do really enjoy working directly with the kids.


As for funding, it is certainly an issue. The biggest problem we have had is they will say things here are allocated for education (like a wheel tax for example) and then later on change it and decrease the percentage and do things like that. That really hurts the system. So it is basically just politicians being dishonest. No surprise there.

I am against walking out though. I know it sucks when you feel you get screwed. There have been really long periods here where we haven't gotten a raise, even when we have lost any sort of increase we were supposed to get. At the same time the higher ups keep getting more money but I'm simply against not doing your job. I also am not one who complains. However, it isn't like a normal job and those comparisons are kind of silly. We can't ask for a raise. Even with places with no unions your salaries are set, often by people who really don't care much. So it is considerably different from the private sector and thus comparisons are lazy.

The one argument you can obviously make is the choice to teach. However, what we see now are places taking away some of the benefits that were the reason some people thought it was worth doing in the first place. I don't see a way to justify that. You can't simply say pensions are evil and should go when they were one of the benefits people choose over something else with a higher salary. The benefits of teaching are very good. You can't point this out and then say they should be taken away. That's absurd.

 

[gunslingerdick]

My wife is a public school teacher and there are several issues at work against successful outcomes. The schools are overcrowded due to relocation and mass migration. The classroom sizes of 25-30 students are too large for overall success. ESL students demand far more resources than non ESL students, and must be pulled daily from the standard classroom for specialized education by a Spanish fluent teacher. It is also very difficult to get rid of a poorly performing teacher. The ‘at risk’ students demand far more of a teachers time than do the ‘perfomers’, and therefore the brightest students don’t meet their full potential. These observations only apply to public school.

Your poast speaks to the issues. Administrations (and society in general) are too damn scared to publicly identify the problem. If there are kids that cause problems in class, they should be removed from class. We should spend less time on those that are not interested in learning so that those that are interested in learning can learn. But to do that, we'd have to get down to real talk. And administrations - mostly white administrators - are too scared to do that.

One of my staff members just had two kids graduate from high school in the last 3 years. Her daughter was a high achiever that was in all AP courses. That is until the school administration felt that the AP courses were not diverse enough. So they proceeded to lower the requirements for AP courses so that the classroom is more diverse. And those kids that were allowed into the class were not high achievers and not interested in performing at a high level. They were disruptive and caused my staff member's daughter to voluntarily leave the AP courses. She was able to get into the college prep courses where that element didn't exist. But there were other high achievers that weren't able to get into the college prep courses and they had to be stuck in the dumbed down AP courses. This is a large part of the problem.

We've become afraid to excel. Because naturally excelling makes those that don't or can't excel look bad. And for some reason, we don't want that. Instead of setting the bar high and attempting to raise up the bottom, we simply move the top down to close the gap. This is one of the biggest problems with public education and one of the biggest reasons my kids will never be publicly educated.

As to your point about Spanish speaking students - think about this. We have to spend money on extra resources for kids that don't speak English instead of just requiring all students in this country to speak English. Think about that.

For the record, just so everyone knows I'm not on a witch hunt, my mom was a public special ed teacher for 40 years and my sister is a public special ed teacher that works with kids with severe and multiple disabilities. She's been in teaching for 20 years. I love teachers. I understand they're in a bad spot. And I feel for them. @ticket2ride04 asks why we pay so little for teachers. I can't answer that. Should we pay more? Absolutely. But until society is ready to address the real problems - no matter how uncomfortable it may be - those teachers could make millions and little will change with regard to our results.

 

[nctransplant]

Your poast speaks to the issues. Administrations (and society in general) are too damn scared to publicly identify the problem. If there are kids that cause problems in class, they should be removed from class. We should spend less time on those that are not interested in learning so that those that are interested in learning can learn. But to do that, we'd have to get down to real talk. And administrations - mostly white administrators - are too scared to do that.

One of my staff members just had two kids graduate from high school in the last 3 years. Her daughter was a high achiever that was in all AP courses. That is until the school administration felt that the AP courses were not diverse enough. So they proceeded to lower the requirements for AP courses so that the classroom is more diverse. And those kids that were allowed into the class were not high achievers and not interested in performing at a high level. They were disruptive and caused my staff member's daughter to voluntarily leave the AP courses. She was able to get into the college prep courses where that element didn't exist. But there were other high achievers that weren't able to get into the college prep courses and they had to be stuck in the dumbed down AP courses. This is a large part of the problem.

We've become afraid to excel. Because naturally excelling makes those that don't or can't excel look bad. And for some reason, we don't want that. Instead of setting the bar high and attempting to raise up the bottom, we simply move the top down to close the gap. This is one of the biggest problems with public education and one of the biggest reasons my kids will never be publicly educated.

As to your point about Spanish speaking students - think about this. We have to spend money on extra resources for kids that don't speak English instead of just requiring all students in this country to speak English. Think about that.

For the record, just so everyone knows I'm not on a witch hunt, my mom was a public special ed teacher for 40 years and my sister is a public special ed teacher that works with kids with severe and multiple disabilities. She's been in teaching for 20 years. I love teachers. I understand they're in a bad spot. And I feel for them. @ticket2ride04 asks why we pay so little for teachers. I can't answer that. Should we pay more? Absolutely. But until society is ready to address the real problems - no matter how uncomfortable it may be - those teachers could make millions and little will change with regard to our results.

We shouldn't be teaching down to a certain subset of students. We should be teaching up to the high achievers and the lower achievers have no option but get better. Not all students are academically gifted. For those students schools should keep their vocational choices going.
We can't keep sugar coating everything by telling kids "You can be anything you want to be." No hell you can't. Everyone can't be the surgeon, we need nurses, CNA's, and custodial staff as well.

And get rid of waste in county offices. There are too many fat cats sitting behind desks doing crap that the individual schools could be doing. Abolish the federal Dept of Ed and send that money back to the state.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Then let's change it to:

Those who can, do. Those who can also teach, teach.

Eh, by saying "also" that implies that all that teach can "do", which I disagree with (although some certainly can).

But everyone knows (or is) a teacher, so I recognize there is a significant emotional aspect to this debate, therefore I'll bow out and let you all get back to crusading against the plight of teachers.

 

[nctransplant]

Eh, by saying "also" that implies that all that teach can "do", which I disagree with (although some certainly can).

But everyone knows (or is) a teacher, so I recognize there is a significant emotional aspect to this debate, therefore I'll bow out and let you all get back to crusading against the plight of teachers.

I can feel where you are coming from. Speaking just from my perspective and background, most science teachers have no clue about science jobs in the private sector. I thought since I was an Associate Biologist for 9 years I had a lot I could offer at the high school level. I got my feelings hurt for the most part. People that have no clue set standards that rarely relate to real world applications and you are mandated to teach to those standards due to testing. It sucks that you can't teach what you know is applicable.

 

[chickenhunter]

I'm not going to complain about my pay. Of course, I would like to get paid more...anyone who says they wouldn't is a liar. We get pensions, healthcare (although it is not very good), M-F work, summers off. I'm good with all of that.

My bigger issue are lack of teaching materials, lack of administrative support, ans the biggest is lack of support from the parents. I spend at least $500 each year on supplies. Parents send their child to school with notebooks and pencils at the start of the year and NEVER buy anything more. Hell, by the start of the 2nd month, most kids are out of pencils and paper. Because my job evaluation, in part, is based on student progress, it behooves me to buy the supplies because if the students have no supplies, they cant do the work and cant learn.

Try calling parents. That's a joke..at least where I've worked. Phones disconnected, mailbox is full so you cant leave a message, they dont show up to scheduled parent/teacher conferences, etc. Kids KNOW there is very little repercussions for their actions unless they do something absolutely insane like drugs or weapons to school. Because of the FAPE (free and appropriate public education), there is little that can be done. When FAPE comes up at meetings, I always ask..."who is it appropriate for"? because the way the educational system is set up, those kids who want to learn and get an education take a backseat to those kids who are constantly causing issues in the classroom.

Ive said many years and I'll continue to say it. When we start fining parents for their childs behavior, you'll see a lot of "parenting" start to take place. Put the pressure on the PARENTS to start controlling their children's behavior.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I'm not going to complain about my pay. Of course, I would like to get paid more...anyone who says they wouldn't is a liar. We get pensions, healthcare (although it is not very good), M-F work, summers off. I'm good with all of that.

My bigger issue are lack of teaching materials, lack of administrative support, ans the biggest is lack of support from the parents. I spend at least $500 each year on supplies. Parents send their child to school with notebooks and pencils at the start of the year and NEVER buy anything more. Hell, by the start of the 2nd month, most kids are out of pencils and paper. Because my job evaluation, in part, is based on student progress, it behooves me to buy the supplies because if the students have no supplies, they cant do the work and cant learn.

Try calling parents. That's a joke..at least where I've worked. Phones disconnected, mailbox is full so you cant leave a message, they dont show up to scheduled parent/teacher conferences, etc. Kids KNOW there is very little repercussions for their actions unless they do something absolutely insane like drugs or weapons to school. Because of the FAPE (free and appropriate public education), there is little that can be done. When FAPE comes up at meetings, I always ask..."who is it appropriate for"? because the way the educational system is set up, those kids who want to learn and get an education take a backseat to those kids who are constantly causing issues in the classroom.

Ive said many years and I'll continue to say it. When we start fining parents for their childs behavior, you'll see a lot of "parenting" start to take place. Put the pressure on the PARENTS to start controlling their children's behavior.

Great poast. I know that side of it well @chickenhunter. I work with many of those same families. My organization provides a service to help these families and we struggle with getting parents to do their part. Help me help you. But no. Many of these parents have far more important things going on in their lives than their children. Very sad. The breakdown of the family structure is the root of 90% of society’s issues. I know many are trying and simply don’t have the skills needed for appropriately rearing children. They, themselves come from homes where they had no parental involvement and it’s all they know. Then there are others that know better but don’t care enough to be inconvenienced. It’s an unfixable problem unless we’re prepared to sacrifice an entire generation of certain populations - which of course we’re not (and to be clear, I’m not advocating for such radical measures). But the cycle of learned helplessness can’t be broken otherwise.

 

[nctransplant]

One thing that concerns me a little when people talk about teacher benefits is they say we are getting a pension, which we are. The key is WE PAY INTO THIS PENSION SYSTEM. It's not just given to us. They take >$600 from my check every time, not including the other $250 I put in a 403b.