Lebron Takes 35 Shots And Makes 11??
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There's so much ridiculousness in this thread. Some of my thoughts:
1 - IMO, Jordan is the greatest of all time. But I'll listen to arguments for Magic, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. I am starting to listen to arguments for LeBron but I'm not quite there. But I guarantee that when he is through, I will be listening to those arguments. The game is different. I preferred the NBA game of the 80s and 90s to that of today. But it's difficult to compare players from different eras. I just choose to acknowledge that Wilt and Russell were kings early. Then Jabbar took over before handing it off to Magic. From Magic to Michael. And so on, and so on.
2 - LeBron succeeding doesn't diminish Jordan's legacy. Why can't both be legendary players? In fact, I feel lucky that I got to see both in their prime.
3 - What LeBron is doing in this series is nothing short of amazing. I simply cannot believe that Cleveland is even in this thing, let alone leading the series. I still think GS wins but I've gained some respect for LeBron. He's finally making role players turn into very good players. LeBron fans always want to talk about how LeBron has done more with less help. But I'm of the opinion that Jordan made the Pippens, Grants and Kukoc's as good as they were. In other words, if Pippen played anywhere else for most of his career, he's a nice player but wouldn't sniff being one of the top 50 players of all time. What makes Horace Grant better than Tristan Thompson? Michael Jordan, that's what. Kerr is an all time great shooter...because Michael Jordan made him that way. LeBron is excellent at involving other players. That's how he gets the most out of his teammates. Jordan simply demanded it. And you were scared to perform poorly with Mike as a teammate. Two different styles of making players better but both, obviously, highly effective.
4 - Draymond Green is a really nice player that does a lot of good things. But he also makes some terrible plays frequently. He fouls jump shooters, makes bad passes and is too volatile. He has an array of skills. But to me, he's overrated because he's just as likely to make a bad play as he is to make a good play.
5 - Barnes can't get it going. Too bad for him. But I did see him in a commercial last night.
1 - IMO, Jordan is the greatest of all time. But I'll listen to arguments for Magic, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. I am starting to listen to arguments for LeBron but I'm not quite there. But I guarantee that when he is through, I will be listening to those arguments. The game is different. I preferred the NBA game of the 80s and 90s to that of today. But it's difficult to compare players from different eras. I just choose to acknowledge that Wilt and Russell were kings early. Then Jabbar took over before handing it off to Magic. From Magic to Michael. And so on, and so on.
2 - LeBron succeeding doesn't diminish Jordan's legacy. Why can't both be legendary players? In fact, I feel lucky that I got to see both in their prime.
3 - What LeBron is doing in this series is nothing short of amazing. I simply cannot believe that Cleveland is even in this thing, let alone leading the series. I still think GS wins but I've gained some respect for LeBron. He's finally making role players turn into very good players. LeBron fans always want to talk about how LeBron has done more with less help. But I'm of the opinion that Jordan made the Pippens, Grants and Kukoc's as good as they were. In other words, if Pippen played anywhere else for most of his career, he's a nice player but wouldn't sniff being one of the top 50 players of all time. What makes Horace Grant better than Tristan Thompson? Michael Jordan, that's what. Kerr is an all time great shooter...because Michael Jordan made him that way. LeBron is excellent at involving other players. That's how he gets the most out of his teammates. Jordan simply demanded it. And you were scared to perform poorly with Mike as a teammate. Two different styles of making players better but both, obviously, highly effective.
4 - Draymond Green is a really nice player that does a lot of good things. But he also makes some terrible plays frequently. He fouls jump shooters, makes bad passes and is too volatile. He has an array of skills. But to me, he's overrated because he's just as likely to make a bad play as he is to make a good play.
5 - Barnes can't get it going. Too bad for him. But I did see him in a commercial last night.
Awesome post. I agree with every word of this. Just excellent spot on analysis of star history by GSD. I do think that what MJ had that LBJ does not, is a nearly insane killer instinct, nearly unhealthy competitiveness - almost to a fault in that it made MJs teammates during and after his playing days dislike how much he demanded, how his competitiveness consumed him (and them) and how MJ could never let even alleged slights or disses go.... he always had to be known and seen as the winner, the greatest, no excuses, losing was not an option.....
Regarding Dray and TBF - I agree, too. People analyze Curry to death, because he is the MVP, but he didn't need to do more than he did any point during the game. The Dubs need to get more out of Dray, TBF, and whoever plays center - that's easily where they've lost the first two games. If the Dubs even get to mediocre play (not abysmal) from the front line, I still think they will win the series. I think the Dubs win the next 2, then win in the series on their home court in 7
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Oh, and is Matt Dellavedova making Irving expendable? Haha. Kind of kidding but as far as a running mate for LeBron, is Dellavedova a better fit? Irving needs the ball in his hands to be effective. And despite the amazing block on Curry the other night, he's a pretty poor defender. In fact, Irving sometimes comes out of games at the close for defensive purposes. The commentators remarked on that the other night. But this Dellavedova kid is a bulldog. And he has that runner down pat. If he hits 3s at a good clip, he's all that LeBron needs without feeling as if he has to get him shots as he would feel with Irving. Interesting.
To some degree, all of these comparisons are apples to oranges.
To me- it's becoming very clear that Lebron has JUST NOW entered the prime of his career. He is a man possessed and playing with the possession to possession dominance that we've expected from him for so long.
That's not to knock his past achievements- but using Kobe and Jordan as the measuring stick based on finals records is silly. It's a team game. Jordan won 6 titles with a top 50 all-time NBA player on the roster next to him and for 3 of them he had a guy next to him who was NBA first team defense 7 times and DPOY 2 times...who oh, by the way, led the NBA in rebounds for 7 consecutive seasons in the period of arguably the greatest forwards and centers in league history. For Kobe's first three titles he wasn't even the best player on his team- taking on more of the Pippen role while Shaq was the name in his prime. Since then, Kobe is 2-2 in finals outings and that's likely what it will be when he retires.
What you're ignoring is that Lebron's greatness got him to finals when he wasn't mature enough or aggressive enough as a ball player to use his gift in a dominant fashion. He was a rookie in 2004 on the worst NBA team in the league and by 2007 he had them in the finals. Of course they weren't ready to beat a veteran Spurs teams with a shoe-in first ballot HOF. It took Michael 7 years to make it to the finals. It took Kobe a Hall Of Famer named Shaquille O'neal. Let's stop letting his finals record discredit him. The fact that he's been there as many times as he has before he was truly in his prime is what's astounding. And make no mistake, he's going to square that record up sooner than later if he continues doing what he's doing.
Come on guys. The man is averaging nearly a triple double against a 67 win team surrounded by a bunch of misfits. He just set the record for scoring through the first three games in NBA Finals history.
Sit back and enjoy it. You're going to be the same guys complaining about the state of NBA basketball when he's gone.
That's a pretty good post and I agree with a lot of it. And I'm not diminishing what LeBron is doing. But you just went and cited Pippen as an all-time great. And he is. But whereas you think that's just happenstance, I consider Pippen's greatness largely attributed to Mike being Mike and demanding greatness. In other words, why has LeBron "developed" his own Pippen? He went and joined forces with DWade and Bosh and those players never became more dominant because of LeBron. If anything, they went slightly backwards because of LeBron being a teammate. Why hasn't LeBron developed his own running mate into a great player? He's played with plenty of guys with great talent and skill. Are you saying it's your opinion that he's never had a player of Pippen's ability on his team? Who the hell was Scotty Pippen? He was basically a nobody until he was Mike's running mate.
Now, if you want to talk coaching, I'll jump on board there. Mike had arguably the greatest NBA coach of all time and one of the top 5 coaches in sports history in Phil Jackson. LeBron has played under the guidance of nobodies.
Certainly agree on Coaching and Pip. I do think it was a right place right time thing for Pip though. If I remember correctly- Pip was a pretty damned good NBA player post his playing time with Mike- without fact checking I don't think his Trailblazers ever failed to make the playoffs- and if I'm not mistaken the Bulls made the playoffs each year Jordan was on the diamond with Pip as their leader.
Lebron hasn't done it to this point- best argument would be his early Cav teams he made everyone around him better but certainly not in the way Jordan did. Jordan was the best ever (not only at the game but also at) making his teammates better. Sure, Phil had something to do with that. And yes Lebron has basically been coaching since he stepped foot in this league.
Maybe he would've made Wade better if injuries and age weren't such an issue with him. (It was also kind of difficult to make Dwayne Wade better at anything, at prime that guy was incredible). Maybe he could've made Bosh better if Bosh weren't a head case.
But you sure can make the argument that at least through 3 games in this finals- he is in fact doing that now. Just in time to start truly building his legacy.
I'm glad some of you guys are onboard here -- that old cliche of "I'll take [Player A] and put him with any 4 schmo's off the street" -- LeBron is living proof of that right now, and there is only one player in NBA History that I would have made that claim with -- MJ. And even with that -- when MJ went to MLB...Pippen still lead the Bulls nearly to another NBA title. The cupboard was far from bare, as has been mentioned above.
And the issue with LeBron going to Miami (at least for me) was just about the way he handled it. I don't know the whole back-story but I've read somewhere that a bunch of charities benefitted from "The Decision" and that was the reason for building all that hype around it...but in the end, that was a terrible way to have done that and his PR team should have been fired on the spot (if they weren't). But from the basketball standpoint...him joining Wade and Bosh was no different than the "Big 3" in Boston (Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen)...no different than CP3 going to the Lakers (few remember this b/c it was nixed and he went to the Clippers instead)...Karl Malone / Gary Payton going to the Lakers...etc. You can look back over time and see many instances where a star player has "joined forces" on another team that already had 1-2 stars on the roster...for the shear sake of winning a title.
I'm all about rooting for Steph Curry, being that he's a Charlotte native and is as humble of a player as you'll find...but part of me kinda wants to see Cleveland pull this off too just for the shear amazement of what LeBron is doing with this collection of players.
And the issue with LeBron going to Miami (at least for me) was just about the way he handled it. I don't know the whole back-story but I've read somewhere that a bunch of charities benefitted from "The Decision" and that was the reason for building all that hype around it...but in the end, that was a terrible way to have done that and his PR team should have been fired on the spot (if they weren't). But from the basketball standpoint...him joining Wade and Bosh was no different than the "Big 3" in Boston (Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen)...no different than CP3 going to the Lakers (few remember this b/c it was nixed and he went to the Clippers instead)...Karl Malone / Gary Payton going to the Lakers...etc. You can look back over time and see many instances where a star player has "joined forces" on another team that already had 1-2 stars on the roster...for the shear sake of winning a title.
I'm all about rooting for Steph Curry, being that he's a Charlotte native and is as humble of a player as you'll find...but part of me kinda wants to see Cleveland pull this off too just for the shear amazement of what LeBron is doing with this collection of players.
It's worth mentioning that when Lebron left Cleveland, the Cavs lost 47 more games than the year before. When Jordan left Chicago, they lost 2 more game than the year before. Pippen WAS that good. Plus BJ Armstrong was an all star game starter and Horace Grant was a reserve that year.
I have no problem with saying MJ made Pippen, but the fact is that Scottie Pippen was a damn good player and an utterly vital contributor to all 6 championships.
I also buy the argument that MJ made players better because he demanded it in practice and in games and he led by example with his competitive fire. But Lebron is a better facilitator, gets his players more shots, and is extremely cerebral. I think their leadership is equal.
I truly believe that by the time Lebron hangs it up, there will be an honest debate as to who was the better player and who had the better career.
I have no problem with saying MJ made Pippen, but the fact is that Scottie Pippen was a damn good player and an utterly vital contributor to all 6 championships.
I also buy the argument that MJ made players better because he demanded it in practice and in games and he led by example with his competitive fire. But Lebron is a better facilitator, gets his players more shots, and is extremely cerebral. I think their leadership is equal.
I truly believe that by the time Lebron hangs it up, there will be an honest debate as to who was the better player and who had the better career.
A good leader is one that can step out of the way and the operation will run as well as if the leader were involved. Anyone worth his salt in business will tell you that. That's what being a great leader is - preparing your team to prosper in your absence. I hear the argument of "well the Bulls won as many games with MJ as they did without him" all the time. Your stat of how many games each team won without their superstar is not an argument in favor of LeBron. That's an argument in favor of Mike. Pippen was great without Mike, that is true. But again, IMO, that's because he learned from Mike. BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson, Grant, were all good players and benefited from the culture and work ethic that Mike created and instilled. After he created it and after they were under his tutelage, it's not at all surprising that they continued to flourish. They were well trained. I just contend that had they not played with Mike early in their careers, they never would have become the players they were.
I would never assert anything different. Pippen was a great player. He had no choice but to be.
LeBron is the more productive facilitator. But I don't think it's because he's better at it. We saw that when Mike wanted to play that role, he did. And he did at an extremely high level. He just felt that the Bulls best chance at winning was for him to take the shots. Most of the time, he felt that a contested fade-away 20 footer was a better option than Horace Grant in the paint...and he was right. But make no mistake, Jordan could facilitate with the best of them. Paxson and Kerr both hit legendary, crunch time, playoff game winners...because Mike got them the ball after demanding the double team. He and LeBron just have chosen two different styles of being awesome. As far as their leadership, I don't agree that LeBron is on Mike's level. LeBron cares too much about being liked. Again, any leader in business will tell you that being liked is overrated. Mike didn't give a sh*t about which teammates liked him and which didn't. Hell, none of them probably liked him. But they played for him. They would have gone to war for him. And again, I attribute that to the culture that he and Phil created.
But I already acknowledged that LeBron is entering the discussion of GOATs. But IMO, he still has a ways to go. And not because I'm a UNC fan, but more because I grew up in what I consider the golden era of the NBA, I'll never view achievements in the NBA today in the same regard that I view achievements in the NBA during Mike's era. I just won't. You can say that's biased, but I think most basketball historians would agree that the 80s and 90s were the best days the NBA has ever seen - from a product on the court aspect and from a marketing aspect. Mike was fortunate to have come along at that time. I've repeatedly argued in the past that being the greatest of all time in any sport has a lot to do with time and place. Mike hit the scene at the perfect time. Had LeBron been first, I'm probably riding his jock instead of Mike's. That's just the way it is. Can you imagine if Dan Marino had been drafted into Bill Walsh's west coast offense? We'd be like, "Who's Joe Montana?"
You guys all talk ish on Lebron's decision... but let me ask you this...
How was his Decision announcement any different than a HS kid choosing his college? It really isn't. It was a such a huge event that he used its publicity to raise money for charity.
Thay said, Lebron never had that choosing a college experience other HS kids do. And when he made a decision to go to Miami... he went for 4 years (just like college).
You could attribute his decision and excursion to Miami as simply his 4 years at college to be honest.
How was his Decision announcement any different than a HS kid choosing his college? It really isn't. It was a such a huge event that he used its publicity to raise money for charity.
Thay said, Lebron never had that choosing a college experience other HS kids do. And when he made a decision to go to Miami... he went for 4 years (just like college).
You could attribute his decision and excursion to Miami as simply his 4 years at college to be honest.
Look, I haven't really picked on LeBron for "The Decision" but your rationale is weeeak. The dude was a multimillionaire by that point, 25 years old and one of the biggest sports stars on the planet. So he didn't get the fun of laying a few hats on a table and then everyone gasping when he reaches for one? Excuse me if I don't shed a tear for him.
When your a star of his caliber, you get a lot of things that 99.9% of the population doesn't get. So it's ok if the regular population every now and then can have something he doesn't. Good grief.
It was in poor taste. But I'm glad it made some money for some charities. Let's just leave it at that.
It was the first time he was able to make a decision about where his life was spent. It is a big deal. He should be able to enjoy it.
Yes, I'm sure the sole motivation for putting on a preseason championship party to honor 3 people was the money that would be able to be donated to charity as a result
I think Lebron is an unbelievable athlete, but Lebron slurpfests such as this do get old after awhile...
ohhhhhhh gsd you had me until you talked about scottie pippen...MY ALL-TIME FAVE!!!...pippen was a beast and imo helped jordan get over the hump by being paired w/ a bonafide star in pippen...pippen was the prototypical SF who could do everything...size/speed/athleticism/shooting/defense...omg i loved me some scottie pippen..=)
