Coach will give Kenny an opportunity at the 2. And I love the kid but it is incumbent on him to perform, guys looking for PT right behindya...
Next season?
- Thread starter DSouthr
- Start date
Agreed. Kenny definitely needs to show a big jump offensively. But there's too much talent behind him like you said to accept what he's shown this far without him losing time.
Kenny will and should get an opportunity to play. However if he shows us what he showed us last year offensively (lack thereof), there's too much talent on the wing for us to let him stand out there wasting space.
Are you betting on a freshman starting over them? If so, I'm wondering if you've actually watched a RW coached them. If I'm misunderstanding your post, please enlighten me.
Like many, you are misinformed. If the freshman is better, YES he will start.
We'll see. To this point, I haven't seen RW start a freshman, unless he was basically forced to. He is fiercely loyal to his upperclassmen, which is one thing I love about him.
Not attacking you, but the bolded quote didn't seem right with me so I dug a little to find some freshman starters:
- Both Justin and Theo ran out for the opening tip in their first official game (though it could be argued that Theo only got the start because Tokoto was disciplined)
- Nate started his first game, but you could say Roy was 'forced' cause of the PJ/Leslie fiasco.
- Marcus started his first game, even though Roy had Dex, Reggie, PJ and Leslie on the bench.
- Harrison Barnes started from day 1, Butter had to wait half a season but he too started as a frosh.
- Tyler Zeller started his first game... ok, yes Hansbrough was out and would have started if healthy (but that was 08-09, no frosh was busting that line-up)
- Brandon Wright played 28min and scored 10 points in his first freshman game.
- It could be argued Roy was 'forced' to start 3 frosh to open 05-06, but hey.... lets be honest, Psycho T would have started most years!
No one is saying he never starts freshmen. It is just rare. You can easily make the argument Marvin, JB, Marshall, etc should have started on day one because they were more talented. All things being equal Roy starts upperclassmen instead of freshmen. That's why KW will more than likely start game one. He might not finish the year as the starter, but Roy will give him the chance. Especially considering how well he plays D. Roy loves nothing more than a player who works hard on D.
I still think the lineup may be:
Berry
Kenny
Cam
Theo
Huffman
Leaving the freshman bigs out of it at the 5, to me it's a three way battle between Kenny/Felton/Maye for the final spot in the lineup. Berry, Cam, and Theo are all as good as locks to start, as those three are our 3 best players at the moment. So Theo plays 4 if Kenny or Jalek is determined to be the best contributor, whereas if Maye wins the spot Theo and Cam slide down to the 2 and 3. And Maye can't play the 5 for long stretches because he's not a rim protector. Theo can play 4 though: he'd be going against guys like Jayson Tatum, Malik Abu, and Derek Willis most of the time. Which of those guys can't he guard? And against the bigger guys he will be a mismatch on offense.
The other nice thing about this lineup is it gets 4 of our guards/wings in at the beginning of the game. Maye will get plenty of minutes, but I'm worried there is a bit of a logjam for the smaller guys. If Maye starts that means Kenny, Jalek, Seventh, and B-Rob are ALL coming off the bench. There's just not enough minutes for all of them. Whereas if Maye comes off the bench he can replace Kenny/Cam/Theo, and play spot minutes at the 5.
Berry
Kenny
Cam
Theo
Huffman
Leaving the freshman bigs out of it at the 5, to me it's a three way battle between Kenny/Felton/Maye for the final spot in the lineup. Berry, Cam, and Theo are all as good as locks to start, as those three are our 3 best players at the moment. So Theo plays 4 if Kenny or Jalek is determined to be the best contributor, whereas if Maye wins the spot Theo and Cam slide down to the 2 and 3. And Maye can't play the 5 for long stretches because he's not a rim protector. Theo can play 4 though: he'd be going against guys like Jayson Tatum, Malik Abu, and Derek Willis most of the time. Which of those guys can't he guard? And against the bigger guys he will be a mismatch on offense.
The other nice thing about this lineup is it gets 4 of our guards/wings in at the beginning of the game. Maye will get plenty of minutes, but I'm worried there is a bit of a logjam for the smaller guys. If Maye starts that means Kenny, Jalek, Seventh, and B-Rob are ALL coming off the bench. There's just not enough minutes for all of them. Whereas if Maye comes off the bench he can replace Kenny/Cam/Theo, and play spot minutes at the 5.
The poster I quoted said he'd never seen Roy start a freshman unless he was forced to.... in my examples above there were cases of Roy being 'forced' to, but also cases where talent got the start over experience.
I do agree, Marvin could have started over Jawad, Joel probably should have started instead of JP and Butter most definitely should have started.
I reckon the 2-spot is wide open enough for Jalek to take the start with great practice in the preseason.
Just like I said. I wouldn't bet on either starting. We don't know how well KW will come back from his injury and we don't know how long it will take CJ to learn the system. And generally the upper class men start because they are more developed players in the Carolina system and are usually better overall players. I suspect Roy will start his best five regardless of class status and Jalek Felton may well be one of the best 5 when the ACC season starts if not already.
All other things being equal, Roy will start the more experienced player. As he should. Experience wins titles, as is demonstrated almost every year.
If Kenny doesn't improve significantly on offense, he will lose PT, if not his starting spot. We can't afford minimal scoring from the SG spot next year.
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Berry, Felton, Cam the J, Theo, and Huffman/Brooks. Write it down. Those are your starters (imho of course). That leaves Luke, KW, BR, 7th, Huffman/Brooks, Manley, and platek fighting for 6th man and big man banger minutes. That starting lineup should put the fear of shai'tan in the other ACC schools. Only Lewisville can hope to contain us because this team is gonna be dynamic and explosive.
I think the starters are Joel, Luke, Theo (those 3 I don't think anyone will dispute). I do think Kenny will start at the 2, Jalek may at some point win that role but I believe Kenny's shooting will strongly improve, as we should expect from a kid goinbg in to his Jr season and his defense is very strong. The other starter I think will be either Brooks or Huff, for now I would go with Huff being the stronger physical body but Brooks will get solid PT.
Sure we will see Theo and Cam (if cleared to play) on the floor together but I think Cam's primary role wil be backing Theo up at the 3. If you accept Luke starting then you have to pick between Theo and Cam to start at the for 2 important reasons.
First, Luke can play at the 4 but we really do not want to see Theo at the 4 and Luke at the 5, Theo at the 4 requires a big man like any of the frosh bigs to rim protect, Luke is a position defender, not a rim protector.
Second, when you have Kenny, Jalek, BRob, 7th, and Platek all looking for pt and Joel getting huge PG minutes you just can not afford to put Theo in at the 2 for many if any minutes. It was one thing when we had Justin at the 3, you had to start Justin so you had to find a place for Theo but Justin is no longer there and Theo is going back to his natural wing position. Cam will get solid PT behind Theo, Brob if Cam is not cleared to play for us next season.
Sure we will see Theo and Cam (if cleared to play) on the floor together but I think Cam's primary role wil be backing Theo up at the 3. If you accept Luke starting then you have to pick between Theo and Cam to start at the for 2 important reasons.
First, Luke can play at the 4 but we really do not want to see Theo at the 4 and Luke at the 5, Theo at the 4 requires a big man like any of the frosh bigs to rim protect, Luke is a position defender, not a rim protector.
Second, when you have Kenny, Jalek, BRob, 7th, and Platek all looking for pt and Joel getting huge PG minutes you just can not afford to put Theo in at the 2 for many if any minutes. It was one thing when we had Justin at the 3, you had to start Justin so you had to find a place for Theo but Justin is no longer there and Theo is going back to his natural wing position. Cam will get solid PT behind Theo, Brob if Cam is not cleared to play for us next season.
I'll dispute.
I think Cam is in for sure with Joel and Theo. One of the freshman bigs will play the 5. Then Kenny/Luke/Jalek battle it out for the final spot. Maybe I'm wrong and Luke's got the 4 locked up though.
I'll dispute.
I think Cam is in for sure with Joel and Theo. One of the freshman bigs will play the 5. Then Kenny/Luke/Jalek battle it out for the final spot. Maybe I'm wrong and Luke's got the 4 locked up though.
I may like that line up more but I can not even imagine Roy will not start Luke after the way he played in the NCAAT.
Maybe. But if Kenny is a better player than Luke (and I'm not saying he is) then why not role with Kenny/Cam/Theo at the 2-3-4 instead? Sacrifice a bit of rebounding for more athleticism and defensive versatility. On the other hand, if none of the freshman bigs are great rebounders extra rebounding prowess at the 4 would be huge.
I think Roy will go more traditional with the starting lineup but play small more often than not.
1. Berry
2. Williams
3. Pinson
4. Maye
5. Brooks
Starting five right there. But who knows for how long.
2. Williams
3. Pinson
4. Maye
5. Brooks
Starting five right there. But who knows for how long.
I think there is no question that Cam is better than Kenny at this point (and more experienced). Kenny would have to take a big leap to outperform Cam.
Roy I think will show his loyalty to the guys he recruited to Chapel Hill. I just don't think it last all season
Well, he recruited Cam to Chapel Hill.
I don't think it makes much sense to sit a better, more experienced player just because he didn't join the team as a freshman. That is closer to playing favorites than rewarding hard work. If Kenny knows the plays and rotations much better by season opener then sure, but otherwise I think the best player should play.
Had a bunch that would be brought up. Was Britt a better player than the guys behind him when he started?Well, he recruited Cam to Chapel Hill.
I don't know, I wasn't a fan back then. Have only followed the team the last two years. Given Britt's career arc I doubt it.
My sense is that Cam will definitely start. Can't wait to find out though!
I think where Kenny has the advantage here is on the defensive side of the ball. Freshman typically struggle a tad from the get go w rotations etc. Hasn't one of the criticisms on Felton been he doesn't always play hard? It won't matter to Roy if Felton is more of a threat on offense than Kenny if he's taking plays off on the defensive half of the ball. I also think you will see a much improved Kenny on the offensive side. I hope to see him attack the rim more this season.
I love what Felton may be one day but I think it may take some time. We are loaded w 1s 2's and 3's.
Do you think Roy will play small? I know it's not in his DNA but our best lineup right away might be 1-Berry 2-Williams 3-Johnson 4-Pinson 4-Maye
This will allow the youngins some time to get their feet wet plus it's our most experienced group.
I can't wait to watch this group. Makes it a lot easier especially w us winning last year.
Thoughts?
Insert Brooks for Manley and you may have it. The lineup that excites me the most is:
Joel
Jalek
Cameron
Theo
Brooks
HST, I fully expect Kenny to start initially. But if his offense isn't much improved, Jalek will supplant him.
Heeeeeeeeeeeeelllsss . . . !
Scott, I don't think Brooks starts at the 5 . . I see him backing up Maye at the 4 at season's beginning. I will be surprised if Manley is not starting . . (imho)
Yeah I'll agree that this lineup looks electric . .
Joel
Jalek
Cameron
Theo
Brooks
Beginning of the year:
JB, KW, TP, LM, Huff/Brooks
ACC:
JB, CJ, TP, LM, Brooks!
Tourney time:
JB, JF, CJ, TP, Brooks! (FTW) (match-ups might require bigger guys here)
Possible outliers: KW blows up or LM is too good to sit or Huff grows fast or BRob/7th take a leap or Manley is more ready than advertised or.....
Too many variables to really say definitively, but what a great problem to have for Ol' Roy!
JB, KW, TP, LM, Huff/Brooks
ACC:
JB, CJ, TP, LM, Brooks!
Tourney time:
JB, JF, CJ, TP, Brooks! (FTW) (match-ups might require bigger guys here)
Possible outliers: KW blows up or LM is too good to sit or Huff grows fast or BRob/7th take a leap or Manley is more ready than advertised or.....
Too many variables to really say definitively, but what a great problem to have for Ol' Roy!
Billy, I agree that Brooks is maybe more a 4 than a 5 at least in the manner he fits our system. But I do think Luke has his starter role on lock down at the 4 but huge PT for Brooks off the bench. Brooks is IMO, going to have to play a good bit of 5 for us but I think Huff will start because I think he is the more physical rebounder with really good motor and tuffness.
Manley, from what I have seen so far looks to me like a guy that is going to take a little longer to be ready, hope I am wrong about that. I do think a year in our S/C program will do wonders for him but I am thinking maybe 5 min a game this season based on what I have seen so far, again, hope I am wrong about that.
Huff may well start because he is a natural 5. I think the athleticism and scoring of Brooks might be the difference in our small ball look though. In any case, I imagine Brooks and LM will get the most post minutes of our bigs, Huff will be next and Manley will get <8 min/game. Manley is an unknown though since we don't know how quickly our Strength coaches can help him get healthy, stronger, and in better shape.
We could go Jumbo at times with:
JB, CJ, TP, Brooks, and Huff. This would be a match-up nightmare for peeps if CJ and TP can stay with quicker smalls.
Any lineup could be effective as long as the Nasty Dog is on the floor! I hope 7th/JF are steady enough to rest our leader for tourney time!
We could go Jumbo at times with:
JB, CJ, TP, Brooks, and Huff. This would be a match-up nightmare for peeps if CJ and TP can stay with quicker smalls.
Any lineup could be effective as long as the Nasty Dog is on the floor! I hope 7th/JF are steady enough to rest our leader for tourney time!
Rather than reply to everyone & clog up the thread with my replies, I'll address my thoughts on my earlier posts here. I hope no one minds that I don't address the posts individually. It's not personal.
Exactly! I'm glad some people understood where I was going with my post. I didn't expect for others to take my choice of words so literally. When I said Roy would basically have to be forced to start a freshman, I didn't mean someone was virtually holding a gun to his head & making him. I obviously should have chosen my words more carefully. What I was trying to say is Roy is very loyal to his established players. An upperclassman pretty much has to be totally inferior for a starter & the freshman needs to be a lot better, for Roy to go with the freshman, especially early in the season. If there isn't a lot of difference in talent & attitude, Roy will most likely start the upperclassman. He values experience & is loyal. LDII is a prime example of Roy trying to give an upperclassman every chance he could, until it was obvious to everyone that him starting was hurting the team. His attitude made his inferior talent even more obvious. Roy pretty much had to make the change, if he wanted to compete later in the season. No, I'm not saying anyone made him. I'm saying he probably felt that was what he really needed to do at that point.
I love that Roy is loyal to his upperclassman to a certain extent. Things like that are what creates the family atmosphere at Carolina. IMHO, it's admirable he will start them, unless it's obvious doing so will make a insurmountable negative impact on the team.
Exactly! I'm glad some people understood where I was going with my post. I didn't expect for others to take my choice of words so literally. When I said Roy would basically have to be forced to start a freshman, I didn't mean someone was virtually holding a gun to his head & making him. I obviously should have chosen my words more carefully. What I was trying to say is Roy is very loyal to his established players. An upperclassman pretty much has to be totally inferior for a starter & the freshman needs to be a lot better, for Roy to go with the freshman, especially early in the season. If there isn't a lot of difference in talent & attitude, Roy will most likely start the upperclassman. He values experience & is loyal. LDII is a prime example of Roy trying to give an upperclassman every chance he could, until it was obvious to everyone that him starting was hurting the team. His attitude made his inferior talent even more obvious. Roy pretty much had to make the change, if he wanted to compete later in the season. No, I'm not saying anyone made him. I'm saying he probably felt that was what he really needed to do at that point.
I love that Roy is loyal to his upperclassman to a certain extent. Things like that are what creates the family atmosphere at Carolina. IMHO, it's admirable he will start them, unless it's obvious doing so will make a insurmountable negative impact on the team.
FWIW, I'm not a he, but no big deal. Obviously, I should have chosen my words more carefully, but I've been watching the Heels a few decades & know Roy will start freshman. That just doesn't appear to be his first choice. He definitely doesn't seem to be like Cal & K, who purposely recruit over his players on a regular basis, but I'm fine with others disagreeing with me on that.
Fair enough, and I agree on both your above points. Roy is loyal to upperclassmen, but has a track record of starting frosh both when needed and when they deserve it (Barnes, Jackson, Hansbrough)
Sorry about the 'He' there's a heap of testosterone on this board from time to time and it's an easy (and obviously incorrect) assumption that most posters are guys.
Historically, my sense is that Roy is comfortable starting one freshman (if he is good enough) but rarely seems comfortable starting 2. So, for example, Justin started as a frosh, but it took Joel until the very end of the season to push into the starting role. Barnes started but it took half the season before Kendall got the reins (and probably would have taken longer if not for problems with the guy he replaced). I might be forgetting someone but I think you have to go back to Lawson and Ellington to find Roy happy to start 2 frosh out of the gate.
My point is that Roy will almost certainly want to find a freshman big to start. Because otherwise we'll be playing a whole lot of small ball. And while the addition of Cam makes small ball more feasible, it still isn't a great plan for success.
So, just based on history, if we have a frosh in the post, it will be much tougher for Jalek to nose into the starting lineup.
