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NFL 2016-2017

With his overall command of the system, I don't think there has ever been a more cerebral QB than Peyton Manning...and his stats aren't too shabby either. On pure accomplishments, you simply cannot argue against Tom Brady either (system QB or not). There is literally zero argument against those two being #1 and #2 all time. So...you have EVERYONE else to choose from to round out your top 5, and I'm sorry...Rogers is not going to be in that group. He might be one day, but not right now. That would be like Cam Newton having another MVP-type season next year, and them vaulting him into this conversation based on how he is revolutionizing that position...you just cannot do this mid-career.
 
Blue2010 said:
With his overall command of the system, I don't think there has ever been a more cerebral QB than Peyton Manning...and his stats aren't too shabby either. On pure accomplishments, you simply cannot argue against Tom Brady either (system QB or not). There is literally zero argument against those two being #1 and #2 all time. So...you have EVERYONE else to choose from to round out your top 5, and I'm sorry...Rogers is not going to be in that group. He might be one day, but not right now. That would be like Cam Newton having another MVP-type season next year, and them vaulting him into this conversation based on how he is revolutionizing that position...you just cannot do this mid-career.
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Lol......Brady is a system QB? The winning system?
 
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Lol......Brady is a system QB? The winning system?
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There's nothing wrong with being a system QB. But there was a reason he was a 6th / 7th round draft pick (whatever it was). He got hurt and Matt Cassell went 11-5...and Matt Cassell was a 3rd stringer in college.

So, yes...a system QB.

Kudos to New England...the found the winning formula that beats the NFL's cap system designed to create parity. Being in the division with the Browns doesn't hurt either.
 
Blue2010 said:
There's nothing wrong with being a system QB. But there was a reason he was a 6th / 7th round draft pick (whatever it was). He got hurt and Matt Cassell went 11-5...and Matt Cassell was a 3rd stringer in college.

So, yes...a system QB.

Kudos to New England...the found the winning formula that beats the NFL's cap system designed to create parity. Being in the division with the Browns doesn't hurt either.
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They're not in the division with the Browns.

My reaction to the rest of your poast:
...................
 
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Blue2010 said:
There's nothing wrong with being a system QB. But there was a reason he was a 6th / 7th round draft pick (whatever it was). He got hurt and Matt Cassell went 11-5...and Matt Cassell was a 3rd stringer in college.

So, yes...a system QB.

Kudos to New England...the found the winning formula that beats the NFL's cap system designed to create parity. Being in the division with the Browns doesn't hurt either.
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Heck Jimmy Garropolo and even Jacoby Brissett win games as starting QB in NE this year
 
ohio tarheels said:
Heck Jimmy Garropolo and even Jacoby Brissett win games as starting QB in NE this year
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Of course. It's a system designed to allow QB's to thrive...not knocking Brady for taking full advantage of it, and I think he definitely is a top 2 QB of all time. It's no different than Hall of Fame RB's who get all the love but no one mentions the stout OL that was ahead of them their entire career.
 
15977730_10210998776512604_6498258696485996409_n.jpg


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...pittsburgh-steelers-atlanta-falcons/23305311/
 
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gteeitup said:
please don't put montana in a greatest ever with that system and his supporting cast.
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Being in the conversation of "best ever" is due in large part to luck or good fortune. That's just how it is. So what if Montana had Walsh, the WCO and Rice? Do I believe that Marino could have thrived in that WCO as well? Sure. But he didn't. And Montana did. Would Jordan be the best ever if he had been chosen #2 and gone to the Trailblazers? Who knows? But we know that Montana was selected to the 49ers and then proceeded to put up remarkable numbers by mastering the system and winning like no one before him. Being the GOAT is largely about what situation a particular player fell into.

Blue2010 said:
With his overall command of the system, I don't think there has ever been a more cerebral QB than Peyton Manning...and his stats aren't too shabby either. On pure accomplishments, you simply cannot argue against Tom Brady either (system QB or not). There is literally zero argument against those two being #1 and #2 all time. So...you have EVERYONE else to choose from to round out your top 5, and I'm sorry...Rogers is not going to be in that group. He might be one day, but not right now. That would be like Cam Newton having another MVP-type season next year, and them vaulting him into this conversation based on how he is revolutionizing that position...you just cannot do this mid-career.
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Isn't every QB a system QB? Name a QB that's not a system QB. Do some QBs get to do whatever they want on the field? They don't even practice during the week and just freestyle during games? I've never understood the term "system guy".
 
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gunslingerdick said:
Being in the conversation of "best ever" is due in large part to luck or good fortune. That's just how it is. So what if Montana had Walsh, the WCO and Rice? Do I believe that Marino could have thrived in that WCO as well? Sure. But he didn't. And Montana did. Would Jordan be the best ever if he had been chosen #2 and gone to the Trailblazers? Who knows? But we know that Montana was selected to the 49ers and then proceeded to put up remarkable numbers by mastering the system and winning like no one before him. Being the GOAT is largely about what situation a particular player fell into.



Isn't every QB a system QB? Name a QB that's not a system QB. Do some QBs get to do whatever they want on the field? They don't even practice during the week and just freestyle during games? I've never understood the term "system guy".
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Peyton Manning. He "was" the coach on offense...the guy audibled the majority of the time and it's widely known that he had such a command of the offense that he had the full green light.
 
Blue2010 said:
Peyton Manning. He "was" the coach on offense...the guy audibled the majority of the time and it's widely known that he had such a command of the offense that he had the full green light.
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Brady does every bit as much of pre-snap reads and adjustments as any QB in the league. Rodgers too. Luck too. That doesn't mean they aren't built into whatever system the team and head coach have put in place.
 
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gunslingerdick said:
Brady does every bit as much of pre-snap reads and adjustments as any QB in the league. Rodgers too. Luck too. That doesn't mean they aren't built into whatever system the team and head coach have put in place.
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I've said over and over...I'm not knocking the notion of being a "system" player. There's nothing wrong with that. All I was - and am - saying is that trying to compare Rogers to MJ and Ali...who revolutionized their particular sports...is blatantly asinine and completely "prisoner of the moment." That evolved into the idea that Rogers is a top 5 QB all time, and I just think that is ludicrous at this point.

And FWIW -- most of Brady's success is inside 20 yards...screen passes to the RB in the backfield or short crossing patterns to slot WRs. Why do you think they keep going after speedy RBs (outside L.Bount) who have the speed to get to the outside...or constantly going after the Edleman's of the world. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they even drafted Ryan Switzer to play that role at the next level. It's what they do and it is extremely QB-friendly. The one exception here is the time he had Randy Moss...and let's face it...most QB's in the NFL would have made the Pro Bowl with Moss on their team.

Even though I FULLY believe Brady is a system QB, I think the fact that he's been able to accomplish what he has, in terms of championships, is what sets him apart from the other QB greats, even though I think his overall talent level is likely far less. Hope this argument makes some sense. ;)
 
Blue2010 said:
I've said over and over...I'm not knocking the notion of being a "system" player. There's nothing wrong with that. All I was - and am - saying is that trying to compare Rogers to MJ and Ali...who revolutionized their particular sports...is blatantly asinine and completely "prisoner of the moment." That evolved into the idea that Rogers is a top 5 QB all time, and I just think that is ludicrous at this point.

And FWIW -- most of Brady's success is inside 20 yards...screen passes to the RB in the backfield or short crossing patterns to slot WRs. Why do you think they keep going after speedy RBs (outside L.Bount) who have the speed to get to the outside...or constantly going after the Edleman's of the world. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they even drafted Ryan Switzer to play that role at the next level. It's what they do and it is extremely QB-friendly. The one exception here is the time he had Randy Moss...and let's face it...most QB's in the NFL would have made the Pro Bowl with Moss on their team.

Even though I FULLY believe Brady is a system QB, I think the fact that he's been able to accomplish what he has, in terms of championships, is what sets him apart from the other QB greats, even though I think his overall talent level is likely far less. Hope this argument makes some sense. ;)
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I'm still struggling to understand the difference between a "system QB" and one that is supposedly not a system QB - you haven't really given me an example. If Brady is a "system QB", then I'm arguing that every QB in the league is a "system QB". At least, that's what I'm arguing until you can offer up something that gives me pause.

As far as Brady's success, I think we've seen Brady do it every which way. Sure, the way the Pats run their offense now is designed to get the ball out of his hands quickly (and he does it to perfection and that has a lot to do with pre-snap reads). But that's not the style they've always played. Brady was a game manager at first. Then he was a prolific down-the-field QB. Now, he's perfected the quick slants and the bubble and tunnel screens. *On a side note, that's why I believe Belichick is the GOAT - he reinvents himself when he feels the need.

I guess I'll ask you this: Do you believe Brady could go to another team and be successful with a comparable supporting cast?
 
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gunslingerdick said:
I'm still struggling to understand the difference between a "system QB" and one that is supposedly not a system QB - you haven't really given me an example. If Brady is a "system QB", then I'm arguing that every QB in the league is a "system QB". At least, that's what I'm arguing until you can offer up something that gives me pause.

As far as Brady's success, I think we've seen Brady do it every which way. Sure, the way the Pats run their offense now is designed to get the ball out of his hands quickly (and he does it to perfection and that has a lot to do with pre-snap reads). But that's not the style they've always played. Brady was a game manager at first. Then he was a prolific down-the-field QB. Now, he's perfected the quick slants and the bubble and tunnel screens. *On a side note, that's why I believe Belichick is the GOAT - he reinvents himself when he feels the need.

I guess I'll ask you this: Do you believe Brady could go to another team and be successful with a comparable supporting cast?
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I mentioned Peyton Manning as the example and explained why.

As for your question -- a lot of this depends on timing. The quick answer "today" is yes, of course I think Brady would be successful on other teams...with the right supporting cast, as you mentioned. So would many of the other QBs in the league. Do I think he would be annually Championship level...no. I think that success is a Patriots thing A LOT more than I believe it to be a Brady thing. They have a model that works for the organization regardless of what names are on the back of the jersey. As was mentioned...they have won with Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garapolo (spelling?). Put a QB in there that has the ability to get rid of the ball quickly and they will be successful.

The second part of your question -- I agree that he was a game-manager first. As such, if this same example were him being on another team to start his career...no. I think he would have been a back-up QB journeyman and may not have ever gotten a legitimate shot.
 
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No NFL QBs are system QBs lol.

You want an example of a system QB? Hawaii QBs when June Jones was there and Texas Tech QBs when Leach was there. You could stick a jug machine at QB in those two offenses, and it would throw for 4,000 yards a season because all they did was throw the ball. THAT is a system QB.

NFL defenses are too good to allow system QBs to exist.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
No NFL QBs are system QBs lol.

You want an example of a system QB? Hawaii QBs when June Jones was there and Texas Tech QBs when Leach was there. You could stick a jug machine at QB in those two offenses, and it would throw for 4,000 yards a season because all they did was throw the ball. THAT is a system QB.

NFL defenses are too good to allow system QBs to exist.
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Stick to music critiques. ;)
 
Blue2010 said:
How did Bellichek do before going to New England? I'll wait.
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How did the Patriots do before Belichick got there? Parcells built them up to a Super Bowl appearance, but they were a Wild Card team when BB got there.... he then proceeded to win 3 Super Bowls in his first 5 seasons, all of which featured some guy named Tom Brady at QB.
 
I can't believe we're even debating this.

Do you believe that Tom Brady is a better QB -- regardless of team of system -- than most of the other proclaimed-"Great" NFL QB's? That is -- to use your own question -- if you put Tom Brady on other teams, would he achieve the same success?
 
Blue2010 said:
I mentioned Peyton Manning as the example and explained why.

As for your question -- a lot of this depends on timing. The quick answer "today" is yes, of course I think Brady would be successful on other teams...with the right supporting cast, as you mentioned. So would many of the other QBs in the league. Do I think he would be annually Championship level...no. I think that success is a Patriots thing A LOT more than I believe it to be a Brady thing. They have a model that works for the organization regardless of what names are on the back of the jersey. As was mentioned...they have won with Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garapolo (spelling?). Put a QB in there that has the ability to get rid of the ball quickly and they will be successful.

The second part of your question -- I agree that he was a game-manager first. As such, if this same example were him being on another team to start his career...no. I think he would have been a back-up QB journeyman and may not have ever gotten a legitimate shot.
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But I'd argue that if the Panthers and Pats traded QBs before next season, the Panthers improve greatly and the Pats go backwards (I know that hits hard as you're a big Panther fan). Because being an NFL QB is about a lot more than just executing on gameday. It's about preparation, lockerroom leadership, communication, etc. Brady excels in all those departments. That's why I think your claim that he would have been a journeyman QB had he been drafted elsewhere is absurd to me. And your claim that "you could put any QB in the Pats system and he'd be successful" is equally absurd.
 
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Blue2010 said:
I can't believe we're even debating this.

Do you believe that Tom Brady is a better QB -- regardless of team of system -- than most of the other proclaimed-"Great" NFL QB's? That is -- to use your own question -- if you put Tom Brady on other teams, would he achieve the same success?
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Maybe, maybe not. He is exceptionally skilled as a QB. He has terrific arm strength. He's tough as nails. He's poised. But he seperates himself with leadership qualities, preparation and just a je ne sais quoi attribute that you either have or you don't.
 
gunslingerdick said:
But I'd argue that if the Panthers and Pats traded QBs before next season, the Panthers improve greatly and the Pats go backwards (I know that hits hard as you're a big Panther fan). Because being an NFL QB is about a lot more than just executing on gameday. It's about preparation, lockerroom leadership, communication, etc. Brady excels in all those departments. That's why I think your claim that he would have been a journeyman QB had he been drafted elsewhere is absurd to me. And your claim that "you could put any QB in the Pats system and he'd be successful" is equally absurd.
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Surprisingly, I agree with you that NOW, if you put Brady on the Panthers, they would improve. I believe Cam is a Hall of Fame talent, and it showed last season, but he has a long way to go...mentally, more than anything else.

But you missed my point. Tom Brady was drafted into a system that suited his skillset at that time. Timing is everything, in any industry. He was a 6th Round draft pick for a reason...most of those pan out to be journeymen backups...and that is largely b/c the teams that draft them are not equipped to develop them. Had Brady been drafted into one of those situations, I PROMISE you his skillset would not have evolved to where they are today. That's beyond comprehension, to me, that it's not understood.
 
gunslingerdick said:
Maybe, maybe not. He is exceptionally skilled as a QB. He has terrific arm strength. He's tough as nails. He's poised. But he seperates himself with leadership qualities, preparation and just a je ne sais quoi attribute that you either have or you don't.
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GSD just broke out a French expression. All other arguments are invalid.
 
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Blue2010 said:
Surprisingly, I agree with you that NOW, if you put Brady on the Panthers, they would improve. I believe Cam is a Hall of Fame talent, and it showed last season, but he has a long way to go...mentally, more than anything else.

But you missed my point. Tom Brady was drafted into a system that suited his skillset at that time. Timing is everything, in any industry. He was a 6th Round draft pick for a reason...most of those pan out to be journeymen backups...and that is largely b/c the teams that draft them are nor equipped to develop them. Had Brady been drafted into one of those situations, I PROMISE you his skillset would not have evolved to where they are today. That's beyond comprehension, to me, that it's not understood.
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Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick. Is he a "system WR" that was just lucky to fall into the right spot?

I think we agree on many points. The main one being that "opportunity" has a lot to do with success for individuals in pro sports. I don't deny that. But just as opportunity helps a player become the best he can be, opportunity also helps a franchise become the best it can be. If it were all about athletic talent, Ryan Leaf and the Chargers would have won Super Bowls. But it's not. There's a lot more to becoming great. Brady has innate abilities that other QBs that were maybe seen on film as better prospects don't/didn't have.
 
gunslingerdick said:
Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick. Is he a "system WR" that was just lucky to fall into the right spot?

I think we agree on many points. The main one being that "opportunity" has a lot to do with success for individuals in pro sports. I don't deny that. But just as opportunity helps a player become the best he can be, opportunity also helps a franchise become the best it can be. If it were all about athletic talent, Ryan Leaf and the Chargers would have won Super Bowls. But it's not. There's a lot more to becoming great. Brady has innate abilities that other QBs that were maybe seen on film as better prospects don't/didn't have.
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I think we are on the same page for the most part. I will agree that Brady has what it takes between the ears. That is undeniable.

And Yes - I think Antonio Brown simply fell into the right spot. Look what happened to Mike Wallace after he left Pittsburgh. He was an all-pro WR within that system. His career ended when he left.
 
Blue2010 said:
And Yes - I think Antonio Brown simply fell into the right spot. Look what happened to Mike Wallace after he left Pittsburgh. He was an all-pro WR within that system. His career ended when he left.
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The discussion has kind of ended, but are you saying Brown would fade into obscurity if he left and went to another team?
 
gunslingerdick said:
Being in the conversation of "best ever" is due in large part to luck or good fortune. That's just how it is. So what if Montana had Walsh, the WCO and Rice? Do I believe that Marino could have thrived in that WCO as well? Sure. But he didn't. And Montana did. Would Jordan be the best ever if he had been chosen #2 and gone to the Trailblazers? Who knows? But we know that Montana was selected to the 49ers and then proceeded to put up remarkable numbers by mastering the system and winning like no one before him. Being the GOAT is largely about what situation a particular player fell into.

montana did have walsh, rice, the system...and also don't forget the best defense in the league for probably have his time there.

if you meant marino having that supporting cast, no, i don't think he would've thrived in the wco offense because of his pedigree...montana didn't go downfield at all, but marino, bradshaw did, as did guys like namath.

sure, it helps by landing in an ideal situation, but the 49ers selected him in the 3rd round largely due to his average to above traits...he's the definition of system qb.

imo, the argument starts with elway and then you can have anyone else behind him; brady, bradshaw, unitas...
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Blue2010 said:
It is very possible, yes. He's a great talent, no doubt...but so was Mike Williams.
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And if he is not careful, we will find out soon. The comment from Mike Tomlin yesterday was pretty ominous, if I'm A.Brown.

Tomlin said issues are why star players sometimes bounce from team to team and "I definitely don’t want that to be (Brown's) story."
 
TarHeelMark said:
^I like Tomlin... dude doesn't mess around and he called the patriots ASSHOLES! He's ok in my book.
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Most overrated coach in the league IMO.

@gteeitup
You stated: "sure, it helps by landing in an ideal situation, but the 49ers selected him in the 3rd round largely due to his average to above traits...he's the definition of system qb."

Average to above physical traits. Obviously, Joe had a winner's mentality that few have. That's worth a lot and is being undervalued by you and @Blue2010 in this discussion.

You also stated:
"the argument starts with elway and then you can have anyone else behind him; brady, bradshaw, unitas..."

I like Elway and from a physical talent standpoint, he's probably in a league of his own (with maybe Rodgers and Luck). But the best QB of all time should have a better record in Super Bowls than 2-3. And his TD/INT ratio in the playoffs should be better than 27/21. Compare that to Montana's 45/21 TD/INT ratio in the playoffs (with a ridiculous 11/0 in SBs) and to Brady's 58/30 TD/INT ratio in the playoffs. It's then hard to argue for Elway. I think that speaks to leadership abilities, and mental capacity for the position. I'm not sure Elway was as mentally and emotionally tough as Brady and Montana.

And Bradshaw? Really? Talk about falling into the right spot. He was a good QB but he doesn't deserve to be in this conversation with his barely above 50% career completion percentage, and his very average TD/INT ratio.

For me, it's Montana/Brady as 1 and 1a - whichever way you want to go. Then Elway, Manning and Unitas in that order.
 
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