Now It's Just "Marriage"

[uncboy10]

Marriage is defined once and for all in the book with the most important laws that govern my life, the Bible. A group of humans cannot change the infallible word of the Lord. I'll teach my kids what marriage truly is and model it in our home. I'll also teach them what marriage is not and why it's wrong to live in sin like homosexuals do (no different than any other sinful lifestyle that folks choose to live in).

We live in a sad, fallen world. Things like this are simply part of the slide away from Godly principles that was promised thousands of years ago. Nothing surprises me anymore but it also has no bearing on how I am able to live my life. I'll continue to love and serve those around me, regardless of their sexual preference, because that's what Christ did and has taught His followers to do.

These sum it up pretty well:

http://erlc.com/erlc/herewestand?ut...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nor-panic-about-the-decision-on-gay-marriage/

What absolute babble. Teach your kids whatever nonsense you like, but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to the definition of marriage. Quite a lot of research has been done and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that people "choose" to have alternative sexual identities or preferences. The "infallible word of the Lord" you let govern your life was actually written by desert tribesmen that didn't know germs existed, and thought the sun revolved around the Earth. This same "infallible word of the Lord" calls for genocide, and slavery and reduces women to the position of chattel. Believe whatever you want but pardon the rest of us for not wanting our society to be governed by nonsense.

 

[bleeduncblue]

Thank you for giving me the okay to "believe whatever I want." I "believe" I'll stop and pray for you right now ... that Christ will soften your heart at some point and you will understand that this life is only a blip on the radar and there are eternal consequences to where we place our faith.

 

[uncboy10]

Thank you for giving me the okay to "believe whatever I want." I "believe" I'll stop and pray for you right now ... that Christ will soften your heart at some point and you will understand that this life is only a blip on the radar and there are eternal consequences to where we place our faith.

Pray for me, I'll think for you.

 

[keysersosay#1]

I look forward to the day when gay and lesbian couples can be married at mosques all over America

Perhaps Obama, who was AGAINST gay marriage until about three years ago when he was threatened with the loss of huge fundraising $ from Katzenberg and other Hollywood types, can co celebrate the ceremony.

 

[DeanFor President]

That's the crazy thing about living in a nation of laws. When "the people" adopt laws that are unconstitutional, the Supreme Court is empowered to strike them down.

Go ahead. Give me one legal reason same-sex couples should be denied the right to marry, i.e. should be subjected to a different set of laws than all other U.S. citizens. I'll wait.

I don't know about denying anyone rights. But it's a state's issue. All powers not specifically enumerated to the federal government fall to the people, and to the states. This is the Constitution.
Massive federal overreach into an issue that is not theirs to decide

 

[Raising Heel]

I don't know about denying anyone rights. But it's a state's issue. All powers not specifically enumerated to the federal government fall to the people, and to the states. This is the Constitution.
Massive federal overreach into an issue that is not theirs to decide

It's only a state issue until the federal implications become overwhelming.

Marriage confers about 1,100 rights and benefits at the federal level that affect taxes, estate planning, Social Security, medical decisions, etc. Plus, the split decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in November created a divide among the federal appeals courts. That essentially forced the Supreme Court to hear the case after they had dodged the issue for years.

[Edit to add:] And even if it's a state issue, so what? No one has been able to explain why any level of government is allowed to deny rights to a certain segment of its citizenry that are granted to everyone else. That's because that stance is indefensible.

 

[UNC71-00]

What absolute babble. Teach your kids whatever nonsense you like, but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to the definition of marriage. Quite a lot of research has been done and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that people "choose" to have alternative sexual identities or preferences. The "infallible word of the Lord" you let govern your life was actually written by desert tribesmen that didn't know germs existed, and thought the sun revolved around the Earth. This same "infallible word of the Lord" calls for genocide, and slavery and reduces women to the position of chattel. Believe whatever you want but pardon the rest of us for not wanting our society to be governed by nonsense.

And this is the kind of crap from gay marriage supporters that bothers me. Bleed very clearly said in his first sentence "MY LIFE". Why can't you respect his personal opinion and what he chooses to do with his life? Why would you challenge him and call his opinions nonsense when he is not trying to challenge yours? In no way did he call for any government prohibition of marriage of LTBGs, so why are you going after him?

In other words, don't bitch and moan about others intolerance while simultaneously being intolerant.

 

[uncboy10]

And this is the kind of crap from gay marriage supporters that bothers me. Bleed very clearly said in his first sentence "MY LIFE". Why can't you respect his personal opinion and what he chooses to do with his life? Why would you challenge him and call his opinions nonsense when he is not trying to challenge yours? In no way did he call for any government prohibition of marriage of LTBGs, so why are you going after him?

In other words, don't bitch and moan about others intolerance while simultaneously being intolerant.

The post was factually incorrect, and I don't see why religious condescension should be above criticism, especially when its posted on a message board.

 

[gunslingerdick]

The post was factually incorrect, and I don't see why religious condescension should be above criticism, especially when its posted on a message board.

I looked back at Bleed's post and I don't know what would be "factually incorrect". It was all opinion based. The only "fact" in question would be when he stated the Bible defines marriage as one man and one woman. I'm no biblical scholar so tell me, is that what you were referencing?

 

[UNC71-00]

The post was factually incorrect, and I don't see why religious condescension should be above criticism, especially when its posted on a message board.

What in his post was either factually incorrect or condescending? In my opinion he stated his views- nothing more, nothing less.

Since when did disagreeing with another person views or lifestyle mean that you fear or dislike that person? Just because some Christians disagree with alternative lifestyles does not mean that those Christians are threatened or dislike you. And even if they do, who GAF? I am certain plenty of people judge me for things I have done and continue to do and I couldn't care less.

 

[Raising Heel]

I couldn't care less.

 

[UNC71-00]

Lol. It is one of my pet peeves too.

 

[strummingram]

If incest is good enough for: Abraham & Sara, Nachor & Melcha, Lot & his daughters, Amram & Jochabed, Amnon & Thamar, and Cain & his wife, then why not? Its in the bible...

I don't think The Bible is a sex manual at all.

 

[uncboy10]

I was under the impression he was asserting people choose to be gay, which would be incorrect. Frankly I think its condescending to tell people its your opinion they are living their lives in a state of mortal sin, but I guess that's just me.

 

[prlyles]

I was under the impression he was asserting people choose to be gay, which would be incorrect. Frankly I think its condescending to tell people its your opinion they are living their lives in a state of mortal sin, but I guess that's just me.

I agree but it is their right to think anything they want. You don't have to agree ( and I don't) but it is their right.

 

[strummingram]

Christianity and “Biblical” Hatefulness
We Christians are good at a lot of things. Helping others. Dressing up on Sunday. Quoting scripture. Pot luck meals. Taking care of church members. Weddings. Funerals. Worship. But perhaps the thing at which we are the most persistently exceptional is misinterpreting the Bible then running amuck in the world because of it. Honestly, mad skills. And history backs me up on this one.

We have used the Bible to support, promote and act upon some pretty un-Christian things: slavery, holocaust, segregation, subjugation of women, apartheid, the Spanish Inquisition (which, no one ever expects), domestic violence, all sorts of exploitation and the list could go on and on. Oddly, if you ask theologians to pick one biblical theme to rule them all, most of them would say “love”… well, love and grace. Okay, love, grace and forgiveness. Fine. They probably would not specifically agree on a single term, but they would most likely name something that is, in every way, the opposite of the oppression, belittlement, hatred and marginalization represented by the numerous atrocities committed by the Christian Church.

more at the link:

Clobbering “Biblical” Gay Bashing

 

[UNC71-00]

I was under the impression he was asserting people choose to be gay, which would be incorrect. Frankly I think its condescending to tell people its your opinion they are living their lives in a state of mortal sin, but I guess that's just me.

This is where you are missing the point. They are telling you that you are living in mortal sin because of how they interpret God's word. They are not telling you that they dislike you or that they disapprove of your choices, but that they believe that God disapproves of your choices. And if you disagree, why should it bother you? Unless of course your are prohibited from living your life the way you want.

Here's another example: I am certain that almost all (probably all, actually) fundamentalist Christians believe that one of my best friends and his family are not going to Heaven because they are Hindu. My friend doesn't give a rat's ass what the fundamentalists think, so why should I?

 

[bleeduncblue]

The post was factually incorrect, and I don't see why religious condescension should be above criticism, especially when its posted on a message board.

What was "factually incorrect" ?? I cannot help it if you feel condescended upon because of my views ...that's your problem, not mine.

As others have said, it was MY OPINION based on how I live MY LIFE. I see the homosexual lifestyle as a sinful one, based on clear Biblical principles - no different than someone who chooses to steal for a living or prostitute for a living ... the Bible guides my life and decisions. Plain and simple. And by the way, homosexuality (IMO) is no greater of a sin than when I lost my temper at my son yesterday and dealt with him harshly. I later repented to him, reminded him that we're all born sinners and will die sinners and asked him to forgive me.

I have homosexual friends and two relatively close family members - they know that I love them and that I pray for them regularly ... my actions toward them speak far louder than any words I could ever say.

Homosexuality doesn't send folks to hell any more than heterosexuality sends folks to heaven ... it's the separation from Christ that does it.

 

[tazki]

What was "factually incorrect" ?? I cannot help it if you feel condescended upon because of my views ...that's your problem, not mine.

As others have said, it was MY OPINION based on how I live MY LIFE. I see the homosexual lifestyle as a sinful one, based on clear Biblical principles - no different than someone who chooses to steal for a living or prostitute for a living ... the Bible guides my life and decisions. Plain and simple. And by the way, homosexuality (IMO) is no greater of a sin than when I lost my temper at my son yesterday and dealt with him harshly. I later repented to him, reminded him that we're all born sinners and will die sinners and asked him to forgive me.

I have homosexual friends and two relatively close family members - they know that I love them and that I pray for them regularly ... my actions toward them speak far louder than any words I could ever say.

Homosexuality doesn't send folks to hell any more than heterosexuality sends folks to heaven ... it's the separation from Christ that does it.

AMEN brother! Nothing else to be said.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

Christianity and “Biblical” Hatefulness
We Christians are good at a lot of things. Helping others. Dressing up on Sunday. Quoting scripture. Pot luck meals. Taking care of church members. Weddings. Funerals. Worship. But perhaps the thing at which we are the most persistently exceptional is misinterpreting the Bible then running amuck in the world because of it. Honestly, mad skills. And history backs me up on this one.

We have used the Bible to support, promote and act upon some pretty un-Christian things: slavery, holocaust, segregation, subjugation of women, apartheid, the Spanish Inquisition (which, no one ever expects), domestic violence, all sorts of exploitation and the list could go on and on. Oddly, if you ask theologians to pick one biblical theme to rule them all, most of them would say “love”… well, love and grace. Okay, love, grace and forgiveness. Fine. They probably would not specifically agree on a single term, but they would most likely name something that is, in every way, the opposite of the oppression, belittlement, hatred and marginalization represented by the numerous atrocities committed by the Christian Church.

more at the link:

Clobbering “Biblical” Gay Bashing

What a total load of bull crap.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

AMEN brother! Nothing else to be said.

Absolutely! Sin is sin in God's eyes. Acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior and true repentance is still required for salvation. Nothing SCOTUS did this week changes that. If someone refuses to change their life and come in line with God's law, that will ultimately be their problem, not mine - that principle still holds true (individually and collectively) - and nothing SCOTUS did this week changes that. If people refuse to recognize God's law as authoritative and applicable to their lives, that will be their problem when they stand before God at Judgment, not mine - nothing SCOTUS did this week changes that, as much as gays would like it to... All Christians can do is communicate the requirements provided in God's Word and leave it up to people to make a decision. Ball is in their court and it is not my place to make the decision for them or pass judgement. The One who is able and worthy to pass Judgment will do that...

With respect to the socio-political aspect of this question, gay marriage is and always has been about homosexual access to government-derived financial benefits. Period. If government's role in the institution of marriage at any and all levels of society and government had never occurred, then this issue would have never surfaced to begin with. No question exists surrounding the legal issues with unions or marriage or whatever you call it that could not be solved with lawyers representing the people involved. But, at some point, our government decided to get involved and screwed the whole thing up... As it does with many other issues.

 

[strummingram]

What a total load of bull crap.

Well, it does require reading and comprehending it. But, it will probably challenge your current understanding and interpretation. You're crystallized, so you can't get it. It's actually a very insightful, very knowledgeable summation by someone who has Faith and who understands that Greek words and English words, and translations by men of authority, don't always equal correct translations. I wasn't really providing that link for people like you. It's not very likely that you'll learn or accept anything in your life that challenges anything you have already accepted as absolute truth. That's one of the casualties of organized religion.

 

[strummingram]

The very last paragraph is what will scare away most self-righteous people who are threatened by homosexuals.

"In summary of my look at the Christian Church’s use of the clobber verses, if you want to call homosexuality a sin, go ahead. But you are going to have to admit that it is not biblically a sin. Which means you are also going to have to admit that you are calling it a sin simply because that’s what you want to do. Because of that, you are going to have to admit that you are a sinner for using God’s name for false pretenses (it’s a little thing we like to call using God’s name in vain). And then, Paul has something to tell you, “…you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.” (Romans 2:1)."

 

[uncboy10]

It astonishes me how many adults in this country believe in fairy tales.

Frankly, like I said, I don't care what people believe. Its your right to believe in the flying spaghetti monster just like its my right to the opinion that religion is complete nonsense. Funny how people will complain about you criticizing their opinions, using the defense they have the right to their opinion. I never said you don't have the right, I just said it was nonsense.

The only thing about strumming's post that was wrong was the fact that those things are "UN-Christian". Slavery, rape, murder, and the subjugation of women are VERY Christian. Just read your own book, your infallible God demands all of these things on more than one occasion.

 

[Louigi]

About Mark Sandlin
Mark is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA) from the South. He is a co-founder of The Christian Left.


So, the attached author is an self-admitted and founding member of a liberal left wing group in the Presbyterian church. This is supposed to be a unbiased source for interpretation of the Bible. Bull crap is a fitting description of his work.

 

[Raising Heel]

So, the attached author is an self-admitted and founding member of a liberal left wing group in the Presbyterian church. This is supposed to be a unbiased source for interpretation of the Bible. Bull crap is a fitting description of his work.

Would you care to address any of his points, or is an ad hominem attack all you can muster?

[Edit to add:] And for the record, while I found the article interesting, I didn't find it very convincing.

 

[uncboy10]

This is where you are missing the point. They are telling you that you are living in mortal sin because of how they interpret God's word. They are not telling you that they dislike you or that they disapprove of your choices, but that they believe that God disapproves of your choices. And if you disagree, why should it bother you? Unless of course your are prohibited from living your life the way you want.

Here's another example: I am certain that almost all (probably all, actually) fundamentalist Christians believe that one of my best friends and his family are not going to Heaven because they are Hindu. My friend doesn't give a rat's ass what the fundamentalists think, so why should I?

I'm bothered because the Christian right in particular takes it upon itself to make sure it prohibits myself, and other anti-theist, non-believers, and non-fundamentalists from living our lives the way we want. Christianity doesn't just state an opinion, where it can, it writes its teachings into the legal code, and more dangerously indoctrinates as many children as it can. How far back has stem cell research been set by theism? What about contraception? Equal rights for women? Equal rights for LGBT persons? Equal rights for racial minorites?

Now admittedly the Bible is an astonishing piece of literary work. If used correctly there are some pretty valuable moral precepts in there that are useful for building social solidarity. However when you tell children its the "infallible word of the Lord", you're inevitably going to run into problems. That is the basis of fundamentalism.

I also am bothered by the fact that religion is considered taboo. Its perfectly acceptable to preach fundamentalist theism, but its not okay to criticize religion at all...

 

[Louigi]

Would you care to address any of his points, or is an ad hominem attack all you can muster?

[Edit to add:] And for the record, while I found the article interesting, I didn't find it very convincing.

NO I would not care to address any of his points because it is coming from a very irresponsible "minister" who stars off by titling his article "gay bashing", which immediately insults over half of his congregation. Oh, I can muster much more against his blog, but effort should be spent on more legitimate reasoning.

At the end of the day, I read the bible daily and have for years and have read it more than I can count. Also, probably more than most ministers. One has to take the Bible in context of the entire document. When i was younger, I used to think the Bible contradicted itself. It really doesn't as much as most would think.

The issue of bisexuality or sexual immorality is very clear through the Bible. I use the term Bisexual because I personally do not believe anyone is really homosexual. They are either heterosexual or bisexual. All through the Bible it addresses proper relationships and we all really know what that is.

Also, some of the later evil Israelite and Judean Kings install male cult prostitutes in the temple and in the cities before God destroyed them and exiled them to Syria and Babylon. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sexual immorality. If you read as to why God punished them. The levite who cut up his concubine and send pieces of her throughout Israel did so because evil men of Gibeah were going to have sex with him. Instead they offered his concubine and the man who he was staying with's virgin daughter. They raped and killed them. Males having sex with each other was even more offensive than sacrificing one's own wife and daughter. Now that may have been cultural at the time, but he is looked at honorably in the Bible. They ended up killing and destroying the cites of the Benjamin tribe.

 

[saran]

The very last paragraph is what will scare away most self-righteous people who are threatened by homosexuals.

"In summary of my look at the Christian Church’s use of the clobber verses, if you want to call homosexuality a sin, go ahead. But you are going to have to admit that it is not biblically a sin. Which means you are also going to have to admit that you are calling it a sin simply because that’s what you want to do. Because of that, you are going to have to admit that you are a sinner for using God’s name for false pretenses (it’s a little thing we like to call using God’s name in vain). And then, Paul has something to tell you, “…you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.” (Romans 2:1)."

A mistake many people make is confusing "judgement" with "discernrment". Its not only ok to "discern" Hitler is/was evil but it would be a duty. Dicernment however is objective, and discerned truths are not to be used egotitically to feel like God - that's what judegment it. I can "discern" people doing evil things but I cant puff up in superiority because I am or was a sinner as well.

In a similar way people misunderstand "love your enemy". The Greek word for love in that passge meant spiritual love - thus meaning "don't hate" your enemy . Evil wants people to hate it - thats how it passes from one to another. Not hating you enemy is actually meant as a self defense. It was never meant as an order to be warn and fuzzy with rotten people. There are howver lots of psyhcotic Christians who think Jesus wants them to live with a "I'll Love You if Kick Me!" sign on them. They do as much or more harm as the bad guys because they encourage evil.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

Well, it does require reading and comprehending it. But, it will probably challenge your current understanding and interpretation. You're crystallized, so you can't get it. It's actually a very insightful, very knowledgeable summation by someone who has Faith and who understands that Greek words and English words, and translations by men of authority, don't always equal correct translations. I wasn't really providing that link for people like you. It's not very likely that you'll learn or accept anything in your life that challenges anything you have already accepted as absolute truth. That's one of the casualties of organized religion.

I read it - it's a load of bull crap, nothing different from what you typically post. Predictably lame.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

I'm bothered because the Christian right in particular takes it upon itself to make sure it prohibits myself, and other anti-theist, non-believers, and non-fundamentalists from living our lives the way we want. Christianity doesn't just state an opinion, where it can, it writes its teachings into the legal code, and more dangerously indoctrinates as many children as it can. How far back has stem cell research been set by theism? What about contraception? Equal rights for women? Equal rights for LGBT persons? Equal rights for racial minorites?

Now admittedly the Bible is an astonishing piece of literary work. If used correctly there are some pretty valuable moral precepts in there that are useful for building social solidarity. However when you tell children its the "infallible word of the Lord", you're inevitably going to run into problems. That is the basis of fundamentalism.

I also am bothered by the fact that religion is considered taboo. Its perfectly acceptable to preach fundamentalist theism, but its not okay to criticize religion at all...

Sounds like you're gonna have real problems down the road.

 

[UNC71-00]

I'm bothered because the Christian right in particular takes it upon itself to make sure it prohibits myself, and other anti-theist, non-believers, and non-fundamentalists from living our lives the way we want. Christianity doesn't just state an opinion, where it can, it writes its teachings into the legal code, and more dangerously indoctrinates as many children as it can. How far back has stem cell research been set by theism? What about contraception? Equal rights for women? Equal rights for LGBT persons? Equal rights for racial minorites?

Now admittedly the Bible is an astonishing piece of literary work. If used correctly there are some pretty valuable moral precepts in there that are useful for building social solidarity. However when you tell children its the "infallible word of the Lord", you're inevitably going to run into problems. That is the basis of fundamentalism.

I also am bothered by the fact that religion is considered taboo. Its perfectly acceptable to preach fundamentalist theism, but its not okay to criticize religion at all...

Just like I believe that religious fundamentalists missed a great opportunity with the LTBG community, so too I believe that the LTGB community is missing a great opportunity with most Christians and not just the fundamentalists.

Be tolerant and accepting of others lifestyles and you will find more people to be tolerant of yours. And because the fundamentalists actwd the way they did leading up to this point, the LGTBs could further their cause by forgiving the fundamentalists for their bigotry as they no longer write the laws.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

God has been tolerant and forgiving of all man's sins for many thousands of years. He sent his Son as a blood sacrifice in atonement for all of man's sins. It is up to man to do one of two things, either: accept that sacrifice and demonstrate that acceptance as evidenced in a changed life (also known as repentance) and be reconciled to God; or, reject the sacrifice and continue on a path that leads to eternal death and separation from God. It is really very simple.

 

[strummingram]

I read it - it's a load of bull crap, nothing different from what you typically post. Predictably lame.

I just like proving you wrong.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

I just like proving you wrong.

Which you have utterly failed to do.

 

[gunslingerdick]

How do you feel about this picture?

I think it's terribly disrespectful. And it speaks to what @Raising Heel and I were discussing earlier in this thread. He used the phrase "greatest victory in their history". I quoted it and left out "their". RH said that my phrasing completely changed the meaning of the quote - which it probably did. But I guess what I meant to say was "as Americans, haven't we had greater victories?" All of us? Just because you're gay, that doesn't mean that us winning WWII wasn't a victory for you too. If you think America has sh*t on gays, Nazi control likely would have been worse.

 

[strummingram]

Which you have utterly failed to do.

Well, that's true. I just offered the link to the person who proved you wrong.

 

[heelmanwilm]

The absolute worst argument against the decision is the biblically based one. This is not a theocracy. Scotus interpreted gay marriage on its constitutional merits, not whether or not the bible supports it.

But heres whats interesting to me. To say "the bible is against gay marriage" takes a leap in logic as the bible never addresses gay marriage directly. Although i will admit its a reasonable leap. DIVORCE however is clearly addressed numerous times even by Jesus HIMSELF! Yet i have the feeling many christians would not be happy if scotus ruled that divorces would no longer be recognized.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

Well, that's true. I just offered the link to the person who proved you wrong.

And the total bull crap he posted doesn't prove me wrong either. All that link shows is just how far the modern church has fallen away from the faith. The church will be the first to be tested.

 

[saran]

The flag of the Rainbow Mafia is the new flag of confederation. The Southern Poverty Law (Fundraising) Center was using a graphic showing stars and bars going down and rainbow going up. They saw it as a compliment but it captures perefectly the American counter revolution the now Marxist left is trying to impose while hiding behind civil rights jargon. I'm 100% certain the leaders of the Rainbows would put traditionals, religious people etc on reservations or worse. Read the Daily Kos and its like posters are ready to start shooting

How do you feel about this picture?

I think it's terribly disrespectful. .