Phil Jackson Says What We All Knew!

[DSouthr]

K can counter with the fact that Duke players earn forty percent more than UNC players do.that certainly resonate pretty well with recruits

I love when you try to use that reply Ken. Apparently, as a GREAT NBA head coach points out, the NBA owners are OVER PAYING YOUR DUKIES ! The decision of what to pay players is being made by guys that make millionaires out of kids they are not sure are potty trained yet?

But hey, congrats for pointing how exactly how grossly the NBA is OVER PAYING your former dukies, good job with that ! LOL

 

[DSouthr]

I'm not trying to discount anything MJ makes or does, but I'm not sure how relevant MJ is to what Phil Jackson said. I thought we were comparing former players under K and former players under Roy. I don't know how MJ fits into that.

That would be like Georgia using Dominique Wilkins as an example of who the college produces at the next level, or University of Houston using Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler, or LSU using Shaq, etc. I'm just not sure how that fits into this discussion of current players in the league.

You version of not discounting MJ is to suggest he is not relevant? Geez, I would hate to see what you say when you actually admit to trying to discount MJ...

By the way boss, Dominique actually did attend and play for Georgia so popinting to him as an example is actually an accurate example of what Georgia produces, as well as true for the Houston guys or shaq & LSU. Jackson's comments, the actual point of this thread, were not limited to current NBA players...

 

[DSouthr]

I say, whatever keeps you from having to admit that Roy only produces average players at the next level. But nice try though.

Excuse me but I have not noticed Roy being able to coach mega talents like Ochafor or Parker.

What I find really funny is the dukies that so love to place all this energy in to proving (at least they want to think they do) that former dukies are better than former Tar Heels and to prove their point they point to guys like Irving, who played what 8 or so games for K, or the one & doners that were top talents in their class coming to college. Exactly how much of the success that irving has had for example can anyone really believe is attributed to K? Those musta been some really powerful learning lessons games irving played in at duke...

You teach and develope players over time, there is not much credit that should go to a college coach for what a one & done does while in those 2 semesters of college. For example, Kal did not develope Anthony Davis in to the mega talent he is right now nor did he refine that talent, he housed that talent for about 6mo, pretty much all he did. The true developement of a player happens over multiple seasons, the off seasons are extremely important.

I strongly believe that Roy, since being back at UNC, has not had nearly the level of talent commit to him that K has had. Forget about the over hyping of recruiting services and the guru's hype of kids rankings, I am talking about watch the players play and tell me where the most talented are. Roy has got guys that needed a ton of work for the most part. Truth is since being back at UNC, the best player Roy has had is Tyler Hansbourgh and what was he, a 6'7-8" power forward whose main skill was his hustle? Little bit different than Parker or Ochafor, he sure wasn't a 7ft guy like PLumlees. The highest rated for his class was Barnes but really, that was a weak class and every one of you know in many classes barnes would have struggled to be top 10. Solid talent but not spectacular and yet a solid member of the NBA championship team, same for JMM as well picking up his NBA championship ring.

And back to Phil's main point, Jordan was not even the top ranked recruit in the state of NC before he got to UNC, Hubert Davis had nothing but a couple of mid major programs willing to offer him a scholly, did anyone know who Shammond Williams was before he got to UNC, gurantee ya no one was scared of UNC because they just brought in the mega talented Danny Green. Those are just some examples of guys developed while at UNC and going on to have great to greatest of all tiime careers in the NBA. And yeah, that is relevant...

 

[johnl1219]

Excuse me but I have not noticed Roy being able to coach mega talents like Ochafor or Parker.

What I find really funny is the dukies that so love to place all this energy in to proving (at least they want to think they do) that former dukies are better than former Tar Heels and to prove their point they point to guys like Irving, who played what 8 or so games for K, or the one & doners that were top talents in their class coming to college. Exactly how much of the success that irving has had for example can anyone really believe is attributed to K? Those musta been some really powerful learning lessons games irving played in at duke...

You teach and develope players over time, there is not much credit that should go to a college coach for what a one & done does while in those 2 semesters of college. For example, Kal did not develope Anthony Davis in to the mega talent he is right now nor did he refine that talent, he housed that talent for about 6mo, pretty much all he did. The true developement of a player happens over multiple seasons, the off seasons are extremely important.

I strongly believe that Roy, since being back at UNC, has not had nearly the level of talent commit to him that K has had. Forget about the over hyping of recruiting services and the guru's hype of kids rankings, I am talking about watch the players play and tell me where the most talented are. Roy has got guys that needed a ton of work for the most part. Truth is since being back at UNC, the best player Roy has had is Tyler Hansbourgh and what was he, a 6'7-8" power forward whose main skill was his hustle? Little bit different than Parker or Ochafor, he sure wasn't a 7ft guy like PLumlees. The highest rated for his class was Barnes but really, that was a weak class and every one of you know in many classes barnes would have struggled to be top 10. Solid talent but not spectacular and yet a solid member of the NBA championship team, same for JMM as well picking up his NBA championship ring.

And back to Phil's main point, Jordan was not even the top ranked recruit in the state of NC before he got to UNC, Hubert Davis had nothing but a couple of mid major programs willing to offer him a scholly, did anyone know who Shammond Williams was before he got to UNC, gurantee ya no one was scared of UNC because they just brought in the mega talented Danny Green. Those are just some examples of guys developed while at UNC and going on to have great to greatest of all tiime careers in the NBA. And yeah, that is relevant...

Wow, you're telling me that Harrison Barnes would have struggled to be in the top 10 in HS rankings? That's laughable...he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the next sure thing, besides LeBron James. Lots of great recruits have rolled through and not called the next sure thing next to LeBron.

That's some serious spin.

To the Hansbrough point, you're trying to say that Hansbrough was no Plumlees? What?? I think if he was a great NBA player, you would be touting Roy's excellence as a recruiter and a developer of talent. But since he's not, you're pretending that he was just ok. Wow.

You sound like a State fan...the ones that tell recruits they should go there because David Thompson played there. You're talking how Georgia should beat their chest because Wilkins played there. Are you trying to tell me that the LSU head coach is telling recruits to come there because of Shaq? I don't think so.

And then you're saying that since Roy has been back to UNC, he's not had great talent. Maybe the last few years, but I think that college basketball world would disagree with you.

I'm still confused by this statement..."And back to Phil's main point, Jordan was not even the top ranked recruit in the state of NC before he got to UNC, Hubert Davis had nothing but a couple of mid major programs willing to offer him a scholly, did anyone know who Shammond Williams was before he got to UNC, gurantee ya no one was scared of UNC because they just brought in the mega talented Danny Green. Those are just some examples of guys developed while at UNC and going on to have great to greatest of all tiime careers in the NBA. And yeah, that is relevant"

Are you saying that Hubert Davis, Shammond Williams and Danny Green have had great to greatest careers? Come again?

You went on and on and the only thing I could make out of that was, Michael Jordan was not the highest rated player in the state, came to UNC, then went on to become one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Other than that one point, you spun me and everyone else who read that in circles.

 

[Sk1310]

John, the first time Roy was mentioned in this thread was by you, in post 15. You created this Roy vs K and now want to get on people. Give it a rest.

 

[topps coach]

I love when you try to use that reply Ken. Apparently, as a GREAT NBA head coach points out, the NBA owners are OVER PAYING YOUR DUKIES ! The decision of what to pay players is being made by guys that make millionaires out of kids they are not sure are potty trained yet?

But hey, congrats for pointing how exactly how grossly the NBA is OVER PAYING your former dukies, good job with that ! LOL

David u go to college to be able to get a good job. Whether u think our guys are overpaid or not is irreverent. Anyone is worth what they can convince their employer to pay them, so K can legitimately tell recruits that coming to Duke will enable them to make more money.JMO but that is a pretty dang good selling point.

 

[Sk1310]

Topps, are the numbers up to date?one would think the gap has closed this off season with contracts Danny Green, Brandon wright and Ed Davis signed. Also, that gap maybe be completely closed once Barnes gets his new contract.

 

[ChapelHeeled]

David u go to college to be able to get a good job. Whether u think our guys are overpaid or not is irreverent. Anyone is worth what they can convince their employer to pay them, so K can legitimately tell recruits that coming to Duke will enable them to make more money.JMO but that is a pretty dang good selling point.

Where did all of the Duke/"K"ay apologist emerge from lately? The bottom line on both Okafor and/or Parker is that they both had their OWN skill sets ALREADY established before they arrived at Duke! The only development that happened under "K"ay was minimal indeed (all, imo). I guess that the Dukies on board would also take credit for Kryie Irving as well. This despite the fact that he played very little to none in the ACC (games). He also played a minimal amount verses the Duke schedule during his ONE year at Duke. The bottom line here concerning ALL THREE of the above mentioned players COULD just as well be that ALL THREE succeeded IN SPITE of their time at Duke (All imo). This line of thought does absolutely AGREE with what Phil Jackson has stated. Also, why did TWO of the three listed above have significant injuries either while at Duke and/or soon after they left Duke??

 

[Archer2]

We need to take the trash out.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

And Jah has (2) wins and a NCAA title as a Freshman against a senior AA. I think any sane player would take those facts every time.

The subject was how he will do at the next level in an isolated situation like he is going to see against a 7 footer on the biggest stage he was handled by Kaminsky and outplayed Period...

 

[Crank_it_loud]

The subject was how he will do at the next level in an isolated situation like he is going to see against a 7 footer on the biggest stage he was handled by Kaminsky and outplayed Period...

So the NBA is all isolation and no team play at all? Lol, that makes sense.

Again, any sane player would take that all day long. Jah will have the better nba career over Frank, but in your mind, Frank is the better player because of 2 games (where they weren't checking each other the whole game). Yep, that makes sense.

# sarcasm

 

[Sk1310]

So the NBA is all isolation and no team play at all? Lol, that makes sense.

Again, any sane player would take that all day long. Jah will have the better nba career over Frank, but in your mind, Frank is the better player because of 2 games (where they weren't checking each other the whole game). Yep, that makes sense.

# sarcasm

Holy reading comprehension. Kaminsky is better then Okafor is really what you took out of that?

 

[Crank_it_loud]

Holy reading comprehension. Kaminsky is better then Okafor is really what you took out of that?

Holy grammar, it's "than" not "then" in that sentence. You know exactly what spacey is alluding to. I'm not getting sucked into the whole K/Dean/Roy and NBA talk, but I bet Phil is just covering his arse for making the pick he did in the first round (passing over Jah). Jah will be a pretty darn good NBA player.

 

[Sk1310]

Holy grammar, it's "than" not "then" in that sentence. You know exactly what spacey is alluding to. I'm not getting sucked into the whole K/Dean/Roy and NBA talk, but I bet Phil is just covering his arse for making the pick he did in the first round (passing over Jah). Jah will be a pretty darn good NBA player.

Cool story

 

[gunslingerdick]

I always like a good debate, and I'll be nice since this isn't my board, but I still think we can all agree that Roy's players at the next level are mostly just good players, with a few better than average players.

I think any unbiased UNC fan would admit that as well. And I'm not coming here trying to say that Duke is producing the greatest NBA talent, but I think over the next few years, you will see a better mix of former Duke players at the next level. Irving, Parker, Winslow, Tatum, possibly Giles and the next group of top players Duke will have playing for them, will be in the NBA...so we'll see.

I think for UNC, the next couple of years, you will not see a great group of NBA talent. Not trying to knock who you have on the roster, but I don't see any above average NBA players on it.

Hey, it's difficult to produce superstars in the NBA.

Duke isn't producing jack shit. Irving played 8 games at duke. No way he was "produced" by duke. Parker, Okafor and Winslow were going to be good players regardless of where they went. Name a player from duke that stayed at least 3 years that went on to be a good NBA player. That's what I thought.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I say, whatever keeps you from having to admit that Roy only produces average players at the next level. But nice try though.

We get what you're saying. We disagree. You need to relent. This is our board. You don't get to keep trying to drive your point home. You shared your thoughts. We told you they suck. Take it and be done with it or you'll be done posting here.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Pssst.......................... Slinger, he can't respond.

 

[Spaceytoyz]

Okafor is not aggressive enough he will not be a star player just a 12/8 guy on a team in which he has the green light for all he can get..

 

[Spaceytoyz]

I am happy to have Frank and Not Winslow, I am happy to have Tyler and Not Henderson.....

 

[imajericho]

While I think only one great player has come out of Duke lately, Kyrie, I do think I agree with K on Phil.

K's leading of New York and his mockery of Golden State's play this weekend (and with resigning Carmelo which doomed that roster) has me questioning him.

Erik Spolestra won 2 titles just by having Lebron. Phil had MJ and Kobe over his career.

 

[Archer2]

While I think only one great player has come out of Duke lately, Kyrie, I do think I agree with K on Phil.

K's leading of New York and his mockery of Golden State's play this weekend (and with resigning Carmelo which doomed that roster) has me questioning him.

Erik Spolestra won 2 titles just by having Lebron. Phil had MJ and Kobe over his career.

Spolestra had much more than "just Lebron" on his title teams, so did Phil. And all he did was win 11 freakin' titles. What an underachiever!

 

[Crank_it_loud]

Okafor is not aggressive enough he will not be a star player just a 12/8 guy on a team in which he has the green light for all he can get..

Not aggressive enough? Based on what? And what constitutes a "good" NBA player (and who here even watched half as much NBA as they do college games, seriously?). These are legit questions - I'd really like to understand where you are coming from at this point......

 

[HeelFan58]

David u go to college to be able to get a good job. Whether u think our guys are overpaid or not is irreverent. Anyone is worth what they can convince their employer to pay them, so K can legitimately tell recruits that coming to Duke will enable them to make more money.JMO but that is a pretty dang good selling point.

I think you mean irrelevant or I guess it could be irreverent too. LOL.

 

[topps coach]

Topps, are the numbers up to date?one would think the gap has closed this off season with contracts Danny Green, Brandon wright and Ed Davis signed. Also, that gap maybe be completely closed once Barnes gets his new contract.

i was using numbers from last year. the gap may have closed. i have not looked at the new numbers

 

[ChapelHeeled]

i was using numbers from last year. the gap may have closed. i have not looked at the new numbers

last year, the year before, the year before that is irrelevant to me... MJ alone makes more than almost all of the former Dookies by himself (concerning his basketball related income). Therefore, refigure any way that you may wish. Dook will lose each and every single time...

 

[imajericho]

Jackson: "That's from his time at Duke. Under Mike Krzyzewski, the program at Duke is to concentrate on fundamental skills. That's opposed to North Carolina, which has always relied on more athletic talent."

 

[ChapelHeeled]

Jackson: "That's from his time at Duke. Under Mike Krzyzewski, the program at Duke is to concentrate on fundamental skills. That's opposed to North Carolina, which has always relied on more athletic talent."

^ From Phil Jackson:


Specifically, he wasn’t enamored with Duke center Jahlil Okafor, or Duke prospects in general, for that matter.

His time with the Bulls seems so long ago now, with the Knicks closer to picking at top of the draft than the top of the standings.

At best, the Knicks would get the first pick and tab center Jahlil Okafor, although Jackson thinks he might not be aggressive enough. “Also, if you look at the guys who came to the NBA from Duke, aside from Grant Hill, which ones lived up to expectations?”

 

[Sk1310]

Not aggressive enough? Based on what? And what constitutes a "good" NBA player (and who here even watched half as much NBA as they do college games, seriously?). These are legit questions - I'd really like to understand where you are coming from at this point......

He said "star" NBA player. I have NBA league pass and probably watched 70 or so Bulls regular season games this past season. let's use a player you should be familiar with; Mike Dunleavy. He is a good NBA player, but he was the 3rd overall pick with higher expectations than just good.

 

[Ozheelfan]

Duke isn't producing jack shit. Irving played 8 games at duke. No way he was "produced" by duke. Parker, Okafor and Winslow were going to be good players regardless of where they went. Name a player from duke that stayed at least 3 years that went on to be a good NBA player. That's what I thought.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner.

In the OAD era, no school is "producing" talent.

The great fallacy being spruiked by some college coaches and those in the AAU circuit are that schools "produce" NBA players. How often have we heard a recruit say: "I really like Kentucky/Duke, they get players to the NBA"

Guess what.... its all BS!!!

Plain and simply, the top 15-20 players from any given High School class SHOULD end up in the NBA. Their success has nothing to do with the coach and nothing to do with the school they go to.
These kids are simply more talented than the rest.

Hell, even Rick Barnes got to baby sit Kevin Durant for a year.... Ya think he "produced" that talent?

As for long term development? If I was an NBA GM I'd be filling my team with kids who were drafted after their Soph or Junior years with strong fundamentals who've shown the ability to work and improve. A 2-3 OAD's thrown in to provide that elite level athleticism and you've got a good team..... a little like the Warriors.... or you could do what the Spurs do: draft no OAD's and fill up on solid veteran journeymen and overseas talent.

 

[Sk1310]

last year, the year before, the year before that is irrelevant to me... MJ alone makes more than almost all of the former Dookies by himself (concerning his basketball related income). Therefore, refigure any way that you may wish. Dook will lose each and every single time...

Yup. I love it

 

[HeelFan58]

Ding ding ding! we have a winner.

In the OAD era, no school is "producing" talent.

The great fallacy being spruiked by some college coaches and those in the AAU circuit are that schools "produce" NBA players. How often have we heard a recruit say: "I really like Kentucky/Duke, they get players to the NBA"

Guess what.... its all BS!!!

Plain and simply, the top 15-20 players from any given High School class SHOULD end up in the NBA. Their success has nothing to do with the coach and nothing to do with the school they go to.
These kids are simply more talented than the rest.

Hell, even Rick Barnes got to baby sit Kevin Durant for a year.... Ya think he "produced" that talent?

As for long term development? If I was an NBA GM I'd be filling my team with kids who were drafted after their Soph or Junior years with strong fundamentals who've shown the ability to work and improve. A 2-3 OAD's thrown in to provide that elite level athleticism and you've got a good team..... a little like the Warriors.... or you could do what the Spurs do: draft no OAD's and fill up on solid veteran journeymen and overseas talent.

spruiked: to make or give a speech , especially extensively or elaborately. to orate I had to look that one up and learned something new today. It evened fooled dumbass spell check. Kudos on the vocabulary. I bet most of the dookies were googling that one for definition. Seriously great point on the OAD's a'int no damn coach developing talent in a year. If anybody should get credit it is the HS coach.

 

[Ozheelfan]

spruiked: I had to look that one up and learned something new today. It evened fooled dumbass spell check. Kudos on the vocabulary. I bet most of the dookies were googling that one for definition.

Yup, it wouldn't be found on any "cheer sheets" that's for sure...

Pleasure to add to your vocab. , it's a good day when you can say you've learned something new!

 

[tw3301]

Duke isn't producing jack shit. Irving played 8 games at duke. No way he was "produced" by duke. Parker, Okafor and Winslow were going to be good players regardless of where they went. Name a player from duke that stayed at least 3 years that went on to be a good NBA player. That's what I thought.

Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Christian Laettner, JJ Redick, Carlos Boozer off the top of my head. Many more who have had long NBA careers, they might not all be superstars but I would consider their careers a success.

 

[lobstersgopinchpinch]

College coaches have little impact on how well their players do in the NBA. That's like giving my first-year business professor at Duke credit/blame for my career in business.

I do think it's interesting to compare long-term success in the NBA to a player's draft position, by school. Comparing Duke vs. UK, stereotypically Duke with skilled players and UK with athletic players. Which gives a player more upside 5 years later? If skills are easier to learn than athleticism, I could see an argument being made for UK players having more upside and lower floors than comparable Duke players.

No idea if those assumptions make sense, but maybe that relative lack up upside is what Phil is referring to... In which case, he may regret not drafting Winslow. Or maybe he's waiting to draft Ingram and Giles, assuming Phil hasn't been fired by then.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Christian Laettner, JJ Redick, Carlos Boozer off the top of my head. Many more who have had long NBA careers, they might not all be superstars but I would consider their careers a success.

True. And while I meant that duke hasn't "produced" a good NBA player in the OAD era, my post didn't at all make that clear. But the guys you named were indeed very good (Grant Hill) or at the very least, solid, NBA players.

College coaches have little impact on how well their players do in the NBA.

I agree. I've always agreed even when Carolina was sending guys to the league left and right. But I think logic and conventional wisdom would tell you that a player that spends 3 or 4 years under the tutelage of a particular coach is developed more by that coach than a player that spends one year under that coach's tutelage.

I do think it's interesting to compare long-term success in the NBA to a player's draft position, by school. Comparing Duke vs. UK, stereotypically Duke with skilled players and UK with athletic players. Which gives a player more upside 5 years later? If skills are easier to learn than athleticism, I could see an argument being made for UK players having more upside and lower floors than comparable Duke players.

Did you forget what board you were trolling?

 

[aah555]

You guys realize that Jackson's not so subtle shot at Duke comes (i) on the heels of the NY times publishing a few Coach K quotes where he ridicules the claim that Phil's triangle offense had a major impact on the championship success of the Lakers and Bulls; and (ii) everyone in the NY media claiming that Phil's rebuild program has been a failure because they missed out on both Towns and Okafor. This is Phil just responding to what he perceives to be public shots from Coach K and others, and deflecting the widespread criticism he's receiving in the city.

 

[gunslingerdick]

You guys realize that Jackson's not so subtle shot at Duke comes (i) on the heels of the NY times publishing a few Coach K quotes where he ridicules the claim that Phil's triangle offense had a major impact on the championship success of the Lakers and Bulls; and (ii) everyone in the NY media claiming that Phil's rebuild program has been a failure because they missed out on both Towns and Okafor. This is Phil just responding to what he perceives to be public shots from Coach K and others, and deflecting the widespread criticism he's receiving in the city.

Of course we've all heard that duke spin. Y'all started looking for ways to explain as soon as Jackson made the comments. Could it be true that Phil is responding in petty fashion? Maybe. But frankly, I think Phil Jackson is above that. Or at least he would have masked it a little better than that. Look, as great as K is, he's out of his league going up against the Zenmaster. And honestly, K doesn't know shit from Shinola about putting together an NBA team so he probably shouldn't have made any comment about it to begin with. On the other hand, Phil knows a thing or two about NBA talent so to think his comments have validity is reasonable.

 

[imajericho]

He takes a shot at Duke and then one at UNC in the subsequent article, which I posted.

 

[aah555]

Of course we've all heard that duke spin. Y'all started looking for ways to explain as soon as Jackson made the comments. Could it be true that Phil is responding in petty fashion? Maybe. But frankly, I think Phil Jackson is above that. Or at least he would have masked it a little better than that. Look, as great as K is, he's out of his league going up against the Zenmaster. And honestly, K doesn't know shit from Shinola about putting together an NBA team so he probably shouldn't have made any comment about it to begin with. On the other hand, Phil knows a thing or two about NBA talent so to think his comments have validity is reasonable.

Eh, you're giving way too much credit to the Zenmaster. Indeed, part of the reason that nickname stuck is he used to masterfully use the media to play mindgames with the refs and opponents. He's an incredibly good coach. But, he's certainly not above taking petty shots. I mean -- this is a guy who wrote a book where he excoriated Kobe as "uncoachable," and just recently criticized Jim Buss (the brother of his fiance) as "a person that's vaulted into position through his inheritance." The Zenmaster has no problem being petty if you get on his bad side.

With regard to the NBA, while I think there may have been some truth to the NBA knock 10-15 years ago, it's been quite a long time since that's been the case. Frankly, Duke's current alums in the NBA today stack up very well against the current alums of any individual program in the NBA -- with the possible exception of UK that has recently churned out so many NBA guys. But, as others have mentioned, Brand, Boozer, Luol, and Kyrie have all made multiple all-star teams in the past decade, and -- health notwithstanding -- I expect we'll see Kyrie, Parker and Okafor all making quite a few all-star appearances in the years to come. And, to the extent we're focused on "expectations" -- which I view as the expectations going into the NBA -- I would argue that more Duke guys of late have exceeded expectations (see Mason & Miles Plumlee, Lance Thomas, and now Seth Curry) -- than have failed to live up to expectations (see Sheldon and Nolan).

 

[gunslingerdick]

Eh, you're giving way too much credit to the Zenmaster. Indeed, part of the reason that nickname stuck is he used to masterfully use the media to play mindgames with the refs and opponents. He's an incredibly good coach. But, he's certainly not above taking petty shots. I mean -- this is a guy who wrote a book where he excoriated Kobe as "uncoachable," and just recently criticized Jim Buss (the brother of his fiance) as "a person that's vaulted into position through his inheritance." The Zenmaster has no problem being petty if you get on his bad side.

With regard to the NBA, while I think there may have been some truth to the NBA knock 10-15 years ago, it's been quite a long time since that's been the case. Frankly, Duke's current alums in the NBA today stack up very well against the current alums of any individual program in the NBA -- with the possible exception of UK that has recently churned out so many NBA guys. But, as others have mentioned, Brand, Boozer, Luol, and Kyrie have all made multiple all-star teams in the past decade, and -- health notwithstanding -- I expect we'll see Kyrie, Parker and Okafor all making quite a few all-star appearances in the years to come. And, to the extent we're focused on "expectations" -- which I view as the expectations going into the NBA -- I would argue that more Duke guys of late have exceeded expectations (see Mason & Miles Plumlee, Lance Thomas, and now Seth Curry) -- than have failed to live up to expectations (see Sheldon and Nolan).

On point one, I don't find those shots "petty" like I would a response to criticism. I think they're accurate. And Phil would know better than most about both Kobe and Jim Buss.

On the second point, you must not have followed the thread. Because the debate isn't about guys that have only spent one year in the duke program. I think it's fair to say that Irving didn't hone any skills in Durham. Even Parker, Winslow, Jones and Okafor...can you really say they developed under K? Is Okafor a markedly different/improved player today than he was a year ago? And even if he was, isn't he the type of talent that would have improved or developed to that degree pretty much anywhere? We're talking about 3 and 4 year players that duke has "developed" into good NBA players. Boozer? Sure. Redick? Ok. After that, I'm struggling. Mason Plum is a role player (not there's anything wrong with that). Lance and Miles Plum are a step below. And Seth Curry? Is he in the NBA? Geeze, standards have been lowered.

It's hard to debate though because how do we measure a players success in the NBA? In accordance with draft position? I don't think that's fair as all drafts aren't created equal. By stats? That seems a little shortsighted. By high school rankings? College accomplishments? It's not an exact science and I don't have an answer. But I know I love the perception. I love that people still say duke doesn't produce any good pros. I don't give a damn if it's true. I will continue to validate those statements and I will do what I can to perpetuate the myth/truth.