Quick stuff (Barton Exhibition)...

[DSouthr]

Manley's conditioning was better than I thought, but definitely not where it needs to be. There's a big gap between Brooks and Manley/Huff. Manley is ahead of Huff IMO. Honestly, I could see Brooks about 20 mpg, Manley/Huff, 5 mpg each, and 10 mpg with us small and Luke at the 5.

Reason I am a bit higher on Huffman is I see him as more physically ready with both stamina and strength as well as having an aggressive streak that I personally enjoy in big men. Strong motor and being physically ready for me is more important than maybe having more refined skill but not physically ready and a bit timid. Totally agree, away from the basket Huff is very raw.

A play in particular from the Barton game, the undersized forward drove top the basket and Manly kinda half hearted stepped to him but did not really go for the stop and the guy scored a rather easy lay in. I think Huff would have either blocked the shot, altered it, or parked the guy a few feet away from the basket and drew the foul but a message IMO would have been sent. That is not to say you are wrong, just that we may see that a little differently is all.

 

[gary-7]

Reason I am a bit higher on Huffman is I see him as more physically ready with both stamina and strength as well as having an aggressive streak that I personally enjoy in big men. Strong motor and being physically ready for me is more important than maybe having more refined skill but not physically ready and a bit timid. Totally agree, away from the basket Huff is very raw.

A play in particular from the Barton game, the undersized forward drove top the basket and Manly kinda half hearted stepped to him but did not really go for the stop and the guy scored a rather easy lay in. I think Huff would have either blocked the shot, altered it, or parked the guy a few feet away from the basket and drew the foul but a message IMO would have been sent. That is not to say you are wrong, just that we may see that a little differently is all.

Fair points, Dave. I will say that the one fault they all shared was defensive footwork and positioning on Help-D. But hey, that is a common malady of pretty much all young Bigs. Hell, Brice, Hicks, Tony (and the list goes on) looked lost in that aspect as freshmen.

Bottom line is we have these young-uns and we have to hope for learning-on-the-job. By all rights, If Tony's dad had acted like he had a lick o' sense we'd just be talking about who was gonna back TB up right about now...

 

[dadika13]

By all rights, If Tony's dad had acted like he had a lick o' sense we'd just be talking about who was gonna back TB up right about now...

1st round draft pick with a guaranteed $4 million in the bank with another $5.5 million in options. Get that man some sense!!!

 

[Tom79]

To my way of thinking, yep, agreed gary, we have 'em and they are our kids. Staff will work on them. Roy will coach em up.

 

[MWHeels]

1st round draft pick with a guaranteed $4 million in the bank with another $5.5 million in options. Get that man some sense!!!

I thought he should have come back for another year. Playing another season at Carolina would have helped him develop into a better all-around player, and definitely would have helped the Heels this season. With that said, I'm glad he was drafted in the first round. I think some kids get really bad draft advice, and then slide into the second round or don't get drafted at all. Really happy for TB that he has the guaranteed deal. Hope his NBA career is a success.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Saw a LOT to be encouraged by, very little to be discouraged with. Give these boys time before burying them.

 

[gary-7]

1st round draft pick with a guaranteed $4 million in the bank with another $5.5 million in options. Get that man some sense!!!

...or a contract that would have added up to way more and passed that cumulative figure very quickly as an actual lottery pick --- and in Tony's case that would most likely have been a high lottery pick after this season had he stayed. Go look at the salary scale --- the numbers speak for themselves.

BTW: Everything I posted about the workings of that situation was accurate, and I stand by my opinion that coming out was a mistake for everyone --- except, that is, for a couple of extraneous folks who made out...

 

[dadika13]

...or a contract that would have added up to way more and passed that cumulative figure very quickly as an actual lottery pick --- and in Tony's case that would most likely have been a high lottery pick after this season had he stayed. Go look at the salary scale --- the numbers speak for themselves.

BTW: Everything I posted about the workings of that situation was accurate, and I stand by my opinion that coming out was a mistake for everyone --- except, that is, for a couple of extraneous folks who made out...

Or he could have struggled/got hurt. Can't predict the future and what comes with waiting a year. It's a lot of money (and his dream as a kid) to walk away from, can't be mad at that. ESP when he winds up being the 1st rounder that he was evaluated to be.

 

[gary-7]

I thought he should have come back for another year. Playing another season at Carolina would have helped him develop into a better all-around player, and definitely would have helped the Heels this season. With that said, I'm glad he was drafted in the first round. I think some kids get really bad draft advice, and then slide into the second round or don't get drafted at all. Really happy for TB that he has the guaranteed deal. Hope his NBA career is a success.

Yep, and that slide came very close to happening.

I'll be pulling for him but that move didn't do him any long-term favors. I'm hoping he can make the best of G-League and get a good shot at a career in the NBA.

 

[gary-7]

Or he could have struggled/got hurt. Can't predict the future and what comes with waiting a year. It's a lot of money (and his dream as a kid) to walk away from, can't be mad at that. ESP when he winds up being the 1st rounder that he was evaluated to be.

Short-term gratification vs long-term success. Sometimes what's good for the school is also good for the kid. That happened to be the case here.

 

[gauchoheel]

Short-term gratification vs long-term success. Sometimes what's good for the school is also good for the kid. That happened to be the case here.

$4 million is not short-term gratification. It's more money than the average college graduate makes in a 40 year career. It's life changing money. At the least the move was not a big mistake. Maybe he could have gone earlier with another year of college, but there are also tons of positives to going pro early:

1. Utility curves: Going from $0 to $4M is a heck of a lot more valuable than going from $4M to $8M
2. One year earlier to free agency, where the real money is. Even the #1 overall pick makes less than a typical sixth man will get.
3. Pro coaching and competition, no practice time limits or other requirements, gets to develop with the team as they'd like to use them
4. The NBA lifestyle ain't half bad I hear

To begrudge a kid for taking millions of dollars and an NBA job is a mistake IMO. He made a choice that's worked out great so far; staying could have worked out quite well too.

 

[gary-7]

$4 million is not short-term gratification. It's more money than the average college graduate makes in a 40 year career. It's life changing money. At the least the move was not a big mistake. Maybe he could have gone earlier with another year of college, but there are also tons of positives to going pro early:

1. Utility curves: Going from $0 to $4M is a heck of a lot more valuable than going from $4M to $8M
2. One year earlier to free agency, where the real money is. Even the #1 overall pick makes less than a typical sixth man will get.
3. Pro coaching and competition, no practice time limits or other requirements, gets to develop with the team as they'd like to use them
4. The NBA lifestyle ain't half bad I hear

To begrudge a kid for taking millions of dollars and an NBA job is a mistake IMO. He made a choice that's worked out great so far; staying could have worked out quite well too.

Stop. Seriously. I'm not "begrudging" him anything. To say something like that is utter horsesh*t.

And for the record one could argue it hasn't "worked out great" so far.

 

[bax4444]

Wow.

Seems today's the day the board beats up on recruits who have a good chance to come here and former players who helped us win a title.

Although there is a thread on the 2014 class that's positive so I guess that's something.

 

[Ozheelfan]

Wow.

Yeah, the wow part is that we have to watch this argument play out all over again with the same prognosticators going back-and-forth with the same arguments 8 months later.

Guys, get over your opinions and just accept someone disagrees with you.....

 

[bax4444]

Yeah, the wow part is that we have to watch this argument play out all over again with the same prognosticators going back-and-forth with the same arguments 8 months later.

Guys, get over your opinions and just accept someone disagrees with you.....

I guess I just don't get the point in digging in and adamantly saying tony made a poor decision after he was a key player in a title run.. and he's 4 million richer right now with nothing but time to develop without having to worry about school. Let's not act as if he isn't being coached up right now.

That being said , Being "right"(or thinking one "needs" to be right) seems to be playing a role here as far as I can tell.

 

[Ozheelfan]

I guess I just don't get the point in digging in and adamantly saying tony made a poor decision after he was a key player in a title run.. and he's 4 million richer right now with nothing but time to develop without having to worry about school. Let's not act as if he isn't being coached up right now.

That being said , Being "right"(or thinking one "needs" to be right) seems to be playing a role here as far as I can tell.

Ahhh, you see you also are digging in.... just let it go dude.
This argument is one with two very clear possibilities which, as I said, have been argued to death last April. Agree to disagree, it's so much easier.

 

[bax4444]

Ahhh, you see you also are digging in.... just let it go dude.
This argument is one with two very clear possibilities which, as I said, have been argued to death last April. Agree to disagree, it's so much easier.

True, guess it just slightly bothers me seeing a player who did everything we could've wanted from him and helping unc to the ultimate goal have his motives questioned and it's being implied that he's surrounded by shady people who steered him wrong. I find it disrespectful and sort of ridiculous.


Anyways you're right, that's my last word on it.

 

[DSouthr]

...or a contract that would have added up to way more and passed that cumulative figure very quickly as an actual lottery pick --- and in Tony's case that would most likely have been a high lottery pick after this season had he stayed. Go look at the salary scale --- the numbers speak for themselves.

BTW: Everything I posted about the workings of that situation was accurate, and I stand by my opinion that coming out was a mistake for everyone --- except, that is, for a couple of extraneous folks who made out...

I guess it depends on what kid wants, do ya just want to get drafted in to the NBA or do you want a long term career with multiple contracts after that rookie deals is finished. Some kids don't have that big time upside that allows a long term career and some do but need to mature their game as well as themselves.

We can throw out $4 million as an amazing amount of money and for most of us it is but if taking that 4mil means you enter before your game is ready and fail to show the NBA that big time assumed potential, then it can cost you near 10s-100s of millions down the road. Just getting there should not be the point, getting there ready to produce and showing why that next contract should be 100mil rather than 20mil should be the point. Having 12-15yr career rather than 5 or 6 should be the point and I strongly believe learning the game from college coaching is the best way to do that and I do not believe 1 single season in the college game allows you to maximize that learning process.

If you are not ready to hit the ground running in the NBA then maybe you are jumping in to soon, while that rookie season is going to be a lot of adjusting, in year 2 or 3 you should become a real factor for your team. A lot of one and done kids are talented enough to be able to do just that and do, I did not and do not think Tony was ready, honestly from what I watched I would have suggested he needed 3yrs in the college game unless his improvement curve was off the charts from frosh to soph.

Yeah, he could have had a career ending injury but he would have insurance that would have covered him for that. I mean it was a case of a kid going to soon, as talented as he was when he went he should have been a lotto guy and as it was he was very lucky to even be 1st round? I wish him well and have no hard feelings for the decision he and his family made, I just believe it was a bad decision, either way he was going to be a millionaire, I would have loved to see him a hundred millionaire and be able to have a David Robinson like impact on the NBA and I think he had that kind of raw potential. But that cake was pulled out of the over before being fully baked, it may still taste good but oh what it could have been...Oh, IMO...

Oh and MJ spent 3yrs in the college game, how much did it cost him, we all know because he has told us publicly how much he benefited from playing 3yrs for Dean but I don't think it cost him anything when from his own lips he shares he would not have become near the p[layer if he had not had that experience under Dean at UNC. The ceiling became the roof!

 

[gary-7]

I guess it depends on what kid wants, do ya just want to get drafted in to the NBA or do you want a long term career with multiple contracts after that rookie deals is finished. Some kids don't have that big time upside that allows a long term career and some do but need to mature their game as well as themselves.

We can throw out $4 million as an amazing amount of money and for most of us it is but if taking that 4mil means you enter before your game is ready and fail to show the NBA that big time assumed potential, then it can cost you near 10s-100s of millions down the road. Just getting there should not be the point, getting there ready to produce and showing why that next contract should be 100mil rather than 20mil should be the point. Having 12-15yr career rather than 5 or 6 should be the point and I strongly believe learning the game from college coaching is the best way to do that and I do not believe 1 single season in the college game allows you to maximize that learning process.

If you are not ready to hit the ground running in the NBA then maybe you are jumping in to soon, while that rookie season is going to be a lot of adjusting, in year 2 or 3 you should become a real factor for your team. A lot of one and done kids are talented enough to be able to do just that and do, I did not and do not think Tony was ready, honestly from what I watched I would have suggested he needed 3yrs in the college game unless his improvement curve was off the charts from frosh to soph.

Yeah, he could have had a career ending injury but he would have insurance that would have covered him for that. I mean it was a case of a kid going to soon, as talented as he was when he went he should have been a lotto guy and as it was he was very lucky to even be 1st round? I wish him well and have no hard feelings for the decision he and his family made, I just believe it was a bad decision, either way he was going to be a millionaire, I would have loved to see him a hundred millionaire and be able to have a David Robinson like impact on the NBA and I think he had that kind of raw potential. But that cake was pulled out of the over before being fully baked, it may still taste good but oh what it could have been...Oh, IMO...

Oh and MJ spent 3yrs in the college game, how much did it cost him, we all know because he has told us publicly how much he benefited from playing 3yrs for Dean but I don't think it cost him anything when from his own lips he shares he would not have become near the p[layer if he had not had that experience under Dean at UNC. The ceiling became the roof!

Dave, my friend, I'm gonna use a reply to your post to put my last word on the subject ITT. You and I are in agreement philosophically on this subject, but that ain't even the point I want to hit.

I am --- as you are --- gonna continue to call things straight as I see them. Tony's decision was a proverbial "elephant in the room" on this board that somehow we weren't supposed to dare critique. Unfortunately too many folks --- here and elsewhere --- can't get past the basic "black/white", "either/or" school of 2-dimensional thinking.

Bottom line is this was a case of a decision to stay being beneficial not only for UNC but for the player as well --- a classic win-win. It makes me SMH and laugh that so many can't seem to grasp that, but oh well. Granted, I had some inside info as to the mechanisms of the decision shared with me, but still, even without that I would stand by that analysis.

It also exasperates me that if one dares criticize a highly criticize-able decision that somehow that means I don't support the player. Utter hogwash. He made what I consider a bad decision, but now that it's made, as a part of the Tar Heel family, I wish Tony nothing but success. And oh, don't look now --- that's exactly what Roy did. That's right, as you know, Roy in his best conscience advised the Bradleys against leaving, but offered his support if they did. Gosh, how could that happen?...

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe TB played against Barton.

Considering those who did, I am excited by the prospect of Roy and staff developing this collection of experience and youth into a problem opponents will hate to see and Family will love to support! How could you look at the joy they play with and not get excited?

I saw much more potential in Huff than I'm reading here and I was pleasantly surprised by Manley too. Brooks looks ready now and CJ looks like he needs more work in our system. The picture of JB, JF, and TP stampeding down the court gives me chills and others nightmares! (even though it won't be a starting unit, lol)

 

[Ozheelfan]

........ The picture of JB, JF, and TP stampeding down the court gives me chills and others nightmares! (even though it won't be a starting unit, lol)

Maybe not a starting unit (who knows though) but I reckon we'll see those three sharing the court some this season, especially well into 2018.

 

[DSouthr]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe TB played against Barton.

Considering those who did, I am excited by the prospect of Roy and staff developing this collection of experience and youth into a problem opponents will hate to see and Family will love to support! How could you look at the joy they play with and not get excited?

I saw much more potential in Huff than I'm reading here and I was pleasantly surprised by Manley too. Brooks looks ready now and CJ looks like he needs more work in our system. The picture of JB, JF, and TP stampeding down the court gives me chills and others nightmares! (even though it won't be a starting unit, lol)

First off, absolutely agree and yeah, I prefer to look forward rather than behind but discussion is discussion and as you can tell I love that aspect. Sure you as well know I am higher on Huffman than some and have laid my reasons out. I have called for our starting line up to be exactly what you wish for in JB, Jalek, and Theo and adding in Luke and Brooks.

 

[Archer2]

First off, absolutely agree and yeah, I prefer to look forward rather than behind but discussion is discussion and as you can tell I love that aspect. Sure you as well know I am higher on Huffman than some and have laid my reasons out. I have called for our starting line up to be exactly what you wish for in JB, Jalek, and Theo and adding in Luke and Brooks.

I believe that's our most potent starting lineup as well.

 

[Tom79]

Curious, no one has mentioned of the 4 mil how much of that figure does TB actually see. I can promise it isn't 4 mil. 8 mil or more is a significantly better position.

I am happy with this group of Heels. It will be fun to watch them develop and grow.

 

[MWHeels]

I am happy with this group of Heels. It will be fun to watch them develop and grow.

I agree. Meeks and Hicks both showed a lot of improvement over their four years, and the current bigs can too. They may have the potential to be the foundation of the next championship team.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Gracious y'all! Get this back on track (good thread) and quit the silly squabbling, and that applies to ALL of you.

 

[Tom79]

I agree. Meeks and Hicks both showed a lot of improvement over their four years, and the current bigs can too. They may have the potential to be the foundation of the next championship team.

Agreed MW, those three are going to be very good. Not this year but beginning next year, yep, I'm on board for another NCAA Championship.

 

[MWHeels]

Agreed MW, those three are going to be very good. Not this year but beginning next year, yep, I'm on board for another NCAA Championship.

Who knows, Miller may even be a surprise down the road. Did anyone think Luke Maye would send Kentucky home from the dance when he first arrived?

 

[gary-7]

Who knows, Miller may even be a surprise down the road. Did anyone think Luke Maye would send Kentucky home from the dance when he first arrived?

Said it before, the only thing holding back Miller is his lack of physical strength and bodily maturity. He is a legit Stretch as a shooter. When his body matures and he can catch in traffic and bang and finish thru contact he can be a player for us.

Oh, and to answer your question, yes --- not that it would be kentucky or anyone specific --- but I knew Luke would be a player... even opined on here that he would be a starter by his Junior season. Lessee...

I'm not going out quite on that limb with Miller but if he sticks around I feel confident in saying he will help us down the road.

 

[MWHeels]

Said it before, the only thing holding back Miller is his lack of physical strength and bodily maturity. He is a legit Stretch as a shooter. When his body matures and he can catch in traffic and bang and finish thru contact he can be a player for us.

This is the thing I love most about watching Carolina basketball. Watching the guys who may not be as highly regarded by recruiting experts work hard both on the court and in the gym to become solid contributors to the team. With a lot of these guys, it's not about how they start, it's about how they finish, and it's so fun to watch the journey.

 

[gary-7]

This is the thing I love most about watching Carolina basketball. Watching the guys who may not be as highly regarded by recruiting experts work hard both on the court and in the gym to become solid contributors to the team. With a lot of these guys, it's not about how they start, it's about how they finish, and it's so fun to watch the journey.

Well said.

 

[Ozheelfan]

......even opined on here that he would be a starter by his Junior season. Lessee...

I’ll go on record to say I raised an eyebrow when Gary predicted Luke to start.
I always though he’d be a valuable contributor, maybe not a starter. So this (and the Kentucky shot) is gravy.
I reckon all the four frosh bigs have the chops to be valuable contributors in their own way in the next four seasons and it’s probable one will start out of necessity!

 

[MWHeels]

I’ll go on record to say I raised an eyebrow when Gary predicted Luke to start.
I always though he’d be a valuable contributor, maybe not a starter. So this (and the Kentucky shot) is gravy.
I reckon all the four frosh bigs have the chops to be valuable contributors in their own way in the next four seasons and it’s probable one will start out of necessity!

One of my favorite quotes from Roy at Media Day as he was talking about how the freshmen bigs: "but they're my players, and we're going to work with them". I agree that these four have a chance to be solid pieces to the team. Maybe not right away, but it will happen.