Agree to disagree, but my point still stands RJ can do anything EC can do, but the other way around that statement isn't true.
Quick stuff (ND game)...
- Thread starter gary-7
- Start date
You saw what Hubert did when Tyson was hesitant to shoot didn't ya? Hubert screamed shoot it shoot it from the side lines, you have to know how hard Hubert was pushing Tyson to shoot, he was being COACHED hard to shoot the ball. That is EXACTLY what JWash needs, in every discussion with Hubert, jump shoot the ball Jalen, I need you to taker jump shots, be ready for the shot, look for your spots, I want you as a primary weapon, don't worry if you miss some, just don't rush, put them up with confidence and I will support you 100%. Hubert does that you will see Jalen taking jump shots.
Jalen has the 1 thing no one else on this team has, at 6'10" and a reach of 7'5" and a high release on his jump shot, as well as the ability to hit a fade away jumper. It means he has no need to rush any jump shot he takes because there are very few in the country that can block that shot, he does not ever need to rush it. Makes it even crazier that this kid is actually wired as a jump shooter and he is now playing like a guy that has the ultimate red light on any jump shot, it is like he is Desmond Hubert on offense? That is on the coach more than the player, he is treated as the last option so he is playing like that.
That does not at all mean do the same crap we did to Nance, the way we used him was amature hour coaching at best. No, you keep Jalen moving, setting real screens rather than this ghost stuff and rather than roll 100% of the time have him pop out for the return pass, a thing he did successfully several times last season. Jalen pops out, JWit cuts the base line and we are cooking with gas.
No, I agree to no such thing. What you posted was like saying water is dry. It is simply objectively false.
EC has made himself into our second best defender while RJ is still a vulnerability on that end.
And RJ is not a natural PG who can drive an offense over time.
I am not saying you are right or wrong but if we start RJ at the point you do have ot accept some things, first off the top is that our tempo will slow and we will be in constant half court offense. If we are playing at a lower tempo then you take away the only real advantage Drake has at the 4. Kid is 6'6" and weights around 205.
As well have to accept, the ball is going to stick to RJs hands, will be a lot of swinging the ball around the horn, a lot of RJ dancing with the dribble back and forth but going no where for most of the shot clock. The other 4 players will not move as much as they should, will see a lot more standing around waiting to see what RJ will do.
Again, not saying you are right or wrong, just sharing what we can expect to see if RJ starts at the point. Every guard we have has aspects to their game that are outstanding, amazing at times. Yet every guard we have also has glaring weakness to their game that are less than what we expect from a UNC guard. We have to accept who ever we prefer also has issues that we have to absorb.
Really, am I going to have to explain to you what "agree to disagree" means?
I'm proud of our guys and coaches for pulling out a gritty win! I think JWash will need to look deep inside himself for the willingness to take shots, be strong with the ball on a catch, rebound, or shot and to attack the basket with aggression. I think Seth will need to be the 6th man and his minutes should be distributed between the 2 & 3. The starters look to be EC, RJ, Cap, Drake, JWash. But I can see situational fluctuations forcing bigger lineups including JWit at 4 at times. Seth's numbers will increase to and stay at starter level, but barring injury it is better for the team and himself if he comes in from the bench. Schemes are getting us plenty of wide-open looks from 3 to mid-range and we are either not even looking toward the basket (JWash) or missing them (RJ, Drake, Tyson) and we even miss layups at times. Drake (lesser extent and getting better), Tyson, and JWash need to find the intestinal fortitude to stop hesitating and flow into shots that come from the O. Our team needs to execute better during high stress moments and absolutely must stop with the freakin' unforced turnovers! I couldn't fathom the decision to drop back and let Burton get a head of steam during the last 4.8, but I am ecstatic that EC manned up and the refs didn't bail him out!
Great win and hopefully they can follow it up with more maximum effort!
Great win and hopefully they can follow it up with more maximum effort!
Are we saying the same thing? Lmao. I totally agree with your take on JWash. I still think there is a bigger reason Jalen is passing up open looks at this point and from my observation, the main reason is NOT a lack of aggressiveness or not being assertive. It seems more like a mandate from the staff but what do I know, I'm just a fan. I guess as that fan, it would be cool to see more centered around Jalen. Dang what do you have to lose? Yea man, Nance, pffft that was a cluster...
I want to say this VERY clearly, a coach that makes his decisions based on stroking egos does not deserve the job. If Cadeau deserves to be benched and is not out of a concern that he may enter the portal then we have a weak sister head coach that does not deserve this or any other coaching job. Hubert's focus has to be on this season, the next game, what puts this team in the best situation to win, he has no guarantee that he will be our coach next season, better worry about this one.
I do feel either RJ or Cadeau needs to come off the bench, I would not rule out both coming off the bench. As for me personally, I think I have been very clear on how much I dislike RJ at the point. I as well don't think I need to remind folks that my opinion is Cadeau is the ONLY real PG we have on this team. But to have a non-jump shooting threat PG that struggles with a lack of maturity, and simply is NOT ball strong at 6'0" is not making him a clear front runner either. Thus I leave the door open for Seth at the point and BOTH RJ and Cadeau coming off the bench and if either of those fellas can't handle that then oh well, they get what they earn... Lead, follow, or get out of the way!
If you are asking me if the staff is telling Jalen not to shoot I would say, maybe not overtly but I do not think they are in any way encouraging him to actively look for his ops or running plays for him to be the guy to take the shot, as they did for Tyson for example. That to me is 100% on the staff.
Ok man thanks, yes, this is what I've been thinking for some time. Do you think there is a reason the staff doesn't continue to develop or work this as a primary option? I guess that's really my main question, coaching. If you are going small, this option could be a major advantage. At this point we should live and die with EC and Jalen as starters and centering a lot play around/through them. I asked a question earlier about RJ being a 6th man. Does that seem unreasonable? I did read "RJ can do anything EC can do but EC can't do all that RJ can do." I don't really think that is true, two different types of players. However, RJ did show a different side yesterday, not a lot of hunting and actually playing like this is a team sport.
I enjoy your consistent positive aspect on things TP, gives me no joy at all to disagree. I respect the heck out of you so just because we may not agree on somethings right now I do consider your opinion before I share mine.
LOL, well this is going to end up well! LOL
Not picking a side on this one but I will say, yes absolutely Cadeau can do things RJ can not do that do help this team BUT just as true is RJ can as well do things that Cadeau can not do that also help this team. They both have clear strengths of their game and they both have glaring weaknesses and they both share a common issue that hurts this team (both are tiny for their position in todays game). Is either or both a net positive,man I will let you guys fight that out but one of them needs to come off the bench.
Neither has our All American and POY.
Just allowing the bigs to touch the ball opened up offensive rebound lanes yesterday. Then we stopped.
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Really at this point I'm concerned that we have people here that can't grasp the concept of "agree to disagree".
Now with that said I feel like what EC doesn't do as well as RJ would hurt us more than the other way around.
With that said the gap between EC's and RJ's defense is very close it not like one is head and shoulders better than the other one so giving up a little defense for RJ's scoring would be the better trade off. If in fact EC is a better defender than RJ and I'm not sold on that.
Notshelby (wonder if it is the town or the girl named Shelby, LOL) it is OK, you can go ahead and say it, they both suck defensively to the point that it is a liability this team has to make up for in other ways. I think we all see that so it is fine to say it.
I honestly think that it is 5 alarm critical that we get more length in our back court STAT! I do think Jack gives us what RJ gives us but does so with solid length for a 2. For what me, myself personally look for in a PG, Cadeau fits that much more than RJ but I can not have a PG throwing the ball away as much as Cadeau does, my PG has to be more ball strong than that. But there is as well the mental maturity aspect with Cadeau that is for me a real concern, last season OK, he was a freshman but now, sorry but that is a HUGE thing for me. I don't need him to jump shoot as badly as others seem to, Kendal or Cota were not great jump shooters, we won with both of those guys, King was not a jump shooter but still we won with him.
But ya know what, 2 people can look at the same work of art, one will love it and the other hate it, meaning we all see things differently at times, I guess that is why there are democrats? LOL
No wonder our defense sucks so bad if EC is considered our 2nd best defender.
The argument about who is the better defensive player between RJ and Elliot is funny to me. They are both inconsistent as hell on defense and regretfully both are short! I'm not astute enough to know which ones plays the best off the ball, helping, etc. but I watch each one struggle with keeping their man from driving.
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LOL, yeah, I have been laughing at that very thing for a good part of the day! It is like asking which prostitute is better the blonde or red head, I don't know, they both suck! LOL
I see where you’re going with regards to Tyson. I kinda feel that it’s kind of the same situation with JWash and our bigs. Our staff has to make a commitment and instill confidence. I feel Tyson and our front court could contribute more with some offensive sets to set them up for success.
Our best defender by a LARGE margin is Seth, then there is a decent gap untill we get to our second best defender (mainly because he is having to play out of position) Drake and from there the drop off is steep, Niagara Falls like steep to IDK, maybe Lubin or JWit? I will say, Cadeau is a much better on ball defender than he was last season
SCORE, Give that man a prize!
Or better said:
"That's a bingo, is that how you say it?
No, we just say bingo.
Oh, bingo, what fun"
Extra points if you know what movie that is from!
Kind of like arguing over who the tallest midget is.
But there is a few things that I truly believe.
Hubert is never going to not start RJ.
If EC is our 2nd best defender we are worse off than we thought.
A PG that can't score and isn't an elite defender is useless on a team that can't defend and is terribly undersized, and we need to out score teams to win. We are better off giving up the what is arguably if any at all a small advantage on defense.
1. As for the first question, I can't read minds but just from one-off comments Hubert has made (and what I see on the court), it feels like the staff came into the season with the assumption that, since Wash wouldn't command the low-block attention from defenses that Mando got, we wouldn't get the same space advantage. OK, perhaps the first part of that premise was correct but the conclusion was not --- in other words, IMO that approach is fatally flawed in that just conceding that vital part of the floor actually leaves LESS space elsewhere.
Moreover, wasting our Bigs in so many too-high ball-screens has created a constant cluster-f*** between the timeline and the key, with defenders not having to worry about what's going on behind them. Sure, we might pick up a backdoor here and there, but the aforementioned cluster-f*** has more bodies and hands interfering with passing lanes. If we're gonna use Wash in particular as a screener that should either be with PnP-for-3 in mind (high - which we aren't using) or PnR (low/mid - which we do use).
But yeah, even that's not enough to reclaim our space. There needs to be actual passing post-entries to Wash and Lubin --- and mid-post counts, too, BTW --- as it forces reaction and enables inside-out action.
2. No, it's not unreasonable to consider RJ as a 6th man --- many have speculated that it could help floor chemistry --- but it could also be awkward to ask a player of RJ's track-record to assume that role. I thnk we can still do ok without resorting to that. As you pointed out, RJ stepped back from the volume-shooting and played much more in the flow Saturday.
3. Yes, you are 100% correct about that rather silly premise that "RJ can do everything EC can", etc...
They are better thought of as having complementary strengths. In fact, they are the first two notes on every opponent's scouting report. I'll close with this, from an email conversation:
Every defense we play against concentrates on two things:
1. Deny/blitz RJ, and
2. Don't let EC get north-south
(Hell, that's what I'd do)...
Now, I'm fine with the first one. RJ ain't himself anyway and that just opens up ops for Jackson and others, so we need to stop forcing the rock to RJ.... and I can tell you that opposing coaches are scared shitless of Eliot on the loose. Yet, here we are enabling their schemes to stop him by doing all that stupid lateral passing just over half-court or the useless too-high ball-screens. As I mentioned, they are using all that as an opportunity to put up a phalanx of shadow-doubles to keep him from terrorizing the paint. Unlike many UNC fans, these coaches know damn well that Cadeau facing the basket 1-on-1 inside of 20 feet is something bad for them waiting to happen.
No, You being factually wrong isn't about "disagreeing". It's about correcting an error.
Yep, I'm going to have to explain to you what it means.
It means that I'm not changing my stance and you are not changing your stance and nither one of us can prove the other one wrong, so rather than keeping the back and forth going we just agree to just disagree.
The way RJ has dominated the ball so often since Caleb left he’s a net negative to the offense if he isn’t shooting close to 40% from three and even then there is an argument.
ETA: There is no way Hubert has the stones to bring him off the bench. But RJ must be more selective and keep the ball moving for this team to be near its best.
EC is the point and should start. If IJack continues from 3, Tremble is threatening from anywhere and JWash shooting more(and shooting well) then EC is a third or 4th option to score. If he can hit a couple 3s each game, people will honor it. RJ coming off the bench would help for many reasons...
Thanks for your input, very good read Gary. RJ is a scoring machine but hasn't been very efficient this year. I think a true point is what's needed right now. There are many scorers on this team that can be unleashed...
I neglected to mention that some of what I prescribed happened at ND --- Hubert even referenced it in his post-game --- in that them blitzing RJ gave us a numerical advantage to the rim. In the past RJ would go on a dribble jag and force a shot, but Saturday he was looking to pass out of the pressure, which created easy dimes.
So, as I said, let them keep doing that while we take advantage. What I also want to see change is ditching the damn high ball-screens. When you've got a luxury like EC, just set up in a 1-4 low, iso him on one defender, and let him go to work, and I like our chances. Or, for example, let him operate off a hi-post entry into a Shuffle-cut then pop out the back side for pressure relief and low post-entry angles for Hi-Lo motion (one of Dean's favorites). Hell, if we would just operate our half-court stuff off those actions EC would average a dadgummed double-double and we'd have more guys getting easier looks.
Ian Jackson obviously has earned the right to start.
I honestly don’t really care which one of Cadeau, RJ, or Seth goes to the bench. Cadeau and RJ have played poorly enough at points to justify getting benched. And Seth was hurt and Jackson has taken advantage.
But Jackson has earned the right to take someone’s job.
If anyone wants my opinion. I don’t think this team will be good defensively regardless who is on the floor. I think overall it’s just a poor defensive team because they’re tiny and have no rim protection. I also don’t think this team is all that good trying to play fast. The reason… they’re bad defensively so the more possessions means they’ll give up more points
I lean more towards RJ, Ian, Seth, Powell, Washington (or insert 5 here). Play slower (not slow) and make it Ian centric and FT line centric offense.
Make it clear that it’s Ian’s offense. The offense goes through him. The on-off numbers for Ian are pretty drastic. He has to start and it doesn’t really matter who he starts for IMO.
The feverish defense of some players is strange to me. No one on this team has earned that kind of defending apart from Ian’s run for like a months worth of games now.
I honestly don’t really care which one of Cadeau, RJ, or Seth goes to the bench. Cadeau and RJ have played poorly enough at points to justify getting benched. And Seth was hurt and Jackson has taken advantage.
But Jackson has earned the right to take someone’s job.
If anyone wants my opinion. I don’t think this team will be good defensively regardless who is on the floor. I think overall it’s just a poor defensive team because they’re tiny and have no rim protection. I also don’t think this team is all that good trying to play fast. The reason… they’re bad defensively so the more possessions means they’ll give up more points
I lean more towards RJ, Ian, Seth, Powell, Washington (or insert 5 here). Play slower (not slow) and make it Ian centric and FT line centric offense.
Make it clear that it’s Ian’s offense. The offense goes through him. The on-off numbers for Ian are pretty drastic. He has to start and it doesn’t really matter who he starts for IMO.
The feverish defense of some players is strange to me. No one on this team has earned that kind of defending apart from Ian’s run for like a months worth of games now.
Gotta go with Cadeau. He is the only true point guard we have. Maybe RJ is done dribbling a hole in the floor but I would need to see it more than just one game to make him a starter at point.
Think we aren't uber athletic outside of Drake, Seth and Ian. Maybe it's more fair to say that the negative attributes outweigh the positive ones for most of our players from an athletic point of view. It really jumps out at you during the games, especially in Seth and Ian neing athletic because they aren't force to guard someone much bigger than them as consistently as Drake. The others all seem to have something obvious that can be used against them whether it is height, lateral speed, being slow. BTW, I am focusing more on the defensive end.
Think we aren't uber athletic outside of Drake, Seth and Ian. Maybe it's more fair to say that the negative attributes outweigh the positive ones for most of our players from an athletic point of view. It really jumps out at you during the games, especially in Seth and Ian neing athletic because they aren't force to guard someone much bigger than them as consistently as Drake. The others all seem to have something obvious that can be used against them whether it is height, lateral speed, being slow. BTW, I am focusing more on the defensive end.
I really like you thoughts about our Beloved Heels! I would insert Seth back in the starting lineup when he is ready. Playing without him precipitated others such as Jackson to emerge and Powell to get more minutes. I really feel our staff must make a commitment to running sets for our front court to enhance our back court. Doing so would instill confidence in JWash and Tyson, who I think, are better than they have played. As always, Go Heels!
The " too high" ball screen has been the single biggest albatross to our offense this season, I agree.
Louisville middle ball screens all took place below the arc, allowing Chuck to dog walk either Cadeau or Davis into the paint and score, get fouled or drop off lobs
Yesterday I watched UNC vs Dook 1997 on YouTube. Zwicker Senior day.
Carolina used all the actions you just described and picked Dook apart with angle feeds off simple 1-4 sets, and side
entry passes. Easy game. But much easier with Jamison taking the shot as soon as it hit his hands. Our bigs can't do " early work" 30' from the basket.
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And that confidence needs to be instilled immediately, as in Tuesday night. We have nothing to lose, really.
We either get something out of Cade and Jalen, or we will lose games because teams figure out Ian or pressure
our guards enough that their outside shots are much more challenging.
The staff showed they had confidence in Cade and Jalen by settling on this interior lineup, it’s time to
give them their chance.
Bingo on all counts. Hubert needs to realize that although NBA screeners can take a high roll pass and get to the rack, that just ain't the case in college (for the most part).
Also, if you go watch the highlight reels on youtube of our games, how many of our baskets are coming off that too-high action? Mostly none.
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